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Rules Questions - please help me
KarlLindemann - Feb 26, 2003 - 06:59 PM
Post subject: please help me
What would you do if when you are setting up before kick-off and you accidentally set up 3 guys in the wide out and your opponent notices after the ball is placed and the kick-off table is rolled on? He told me it was illegal procedure? but i thought that that was only witht the turn counter?
spree - Feb 26, 2003 - 07:49 PM
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That's pretty harsh, I wouldn't call illegal procedure and I don't think there's anything in the rules about calling it in that situation. I would've made you move the player/s from the wide zone to just inside the middle section or would've started again - re-setup and re-rolled kick off depending on the situation.
All you've done is accidently broken the rules, do people call an IP when you accidently move a player 7 instead of 6? Or when you accidently roll 2 block dice instead of 1?? No! And in those cases you'd move your player back one or you'd re-roll the block with only one dice. 
Grotemuis - Feb 27, 2003 - 02:30 AM
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you're right about the IP it wasn't apliable here. If this happens, say you're sorry and just set up again. Or if you only discover it during the game it doesn't bother anymore and just leave it at that.
If your opponent doesn't agrees, screw him and don't play him anymore.
This game is supposed to be fun and not to screw your opponent
Squiggoth - Feb 27, 2003 - 03:41 AM
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Just put the 3rd player anywhere else and not on the line of scrimmage or a place where he can give assists (our house rule).
When there's a 12th player accidentaly set up, we pick one player at random who has to go.
Indigo - Feb 27, 2003 - 08:12 AM
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lol once again a good example of insufficient punishment.
the intention may be different, but the outcome is EXACTLY the same as cheating, yet if you knew someone was deliberately moving extra squares, ignoring bonehead rolls, rolling extra dice, re-rolling when you weren't looking etc. then I doubt you'd be the same.
By treating rules infringements the same way as other IP eligible incidents, people quickly learn not to do it. IMO you can be called for IP for this, but I've gone into this in another post so have a search for it if you are interested.
Bevan - Feb 27, 2003 - 02:32 PM
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Indigo wrote:
once again a good example of insufficient punishment.
Rather than let the coach of the offending player move his player to a more convenient (and legal) position, we let the coach of the other team place one of the three offending players anywhere he likes. This is sufficient to discourage coaches from doing it deliberately. Similarly for incorrect numbers on the field, the opposing coach is allowed to "fix" the problem. 
KarlLindemann - Feb 27, 2003 - 05:09 PM
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Thank you for your help i am gunna shove it in this guys face for making me use 1 or my 2 re-rolls! i agree in the re-do deally
Indigo - Feb 28, 2003 - 02:57 AM
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bah you are all far too lenient!
make it an IP and it will only ever happen once...
ZanzerTem - Feb 28, 2003 - 09:22 AM
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Indigo,
Games = Fun, not Facist!
BlanchPrez - Feb 28, 2003 - 10:00 AM
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BloodbasherMasher wrote:
Indigo,
Games = Fun, not Facist!
While I'm not disagreeing with that statement, or even the argeument that this could all be handled in a friendly fashion without IP being used, I do have to say that by this arguement, IP is not needed at all, even for not moving your Turn Marker. I mean, why force them to lose a RR or their turn when you can just remind them they forgot to move the turn maker. They apologize, move the marker, and game resumes.
Indigo's point is that IP was designed to force people to remember to do things, such as moving the turn maker, or rolling for bonehead. IP could be seen as a deterent in the same fashion for putting more than 11 guys on the field, or too many men in the wide zones. Like with moving the turn markers, a few games of loosing RRs to having too many men on the field, and no one in your league will do it again.
Personally, I agree that this seems a little harsh. Mostly, this is because I find that placing 12 or more players on the field happens FAR less than not moving the turn marker. I like the idea posted in another thread that makes this a ref offence, where the ref now has his eye on the team that put too many players on the field. Get's the extra player off the field and causes a negitive penality to the "offending" coach at the same time.
Just my two cents worth.
Chris
Grumbledook - Mar 03, 2003 - 09:55 AM
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Well i check mine and my opponents set up before this problem arises anyway, maybe you should be doing the same.
Doubleskulls - Mar 05, 2003 - 05:19 AM
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BlanchPrez wrote:
Indigo's point is that IP was designed to force people to remember to do things, such as moving the turn maker, or rolling for bonehead.
Failure to make a bonehead roll is not an IP. Is failure to make a dodge roll and IP? What's the difference?
BlanchPrez - Mar 05, 2003 - 08:00 AM
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Doubleskulls wrote:
Failure to make a bonehead roll is not an IP. Is failure to make a dodge roll and IP? What's the difference?
You are correct. I was thinking moving your Wild Animal first, not Bonehead. 
Chris
Jmac - Mar 15, 2003 - 10:38 AM
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In my tabletop league. When a player sets up 3 players in the wide zone, he is called for "IP". He is then either charged a re-roll or has 1 random player on the field sent off to the reserves by the ref, as he must miss this drive.
Also, if you fail to set up 3 players on the line of scrimmage. The ref picks enough random players to make up for the lack of people on the line.
I know it sounds pretty harsh, but it keeps you from 'accidently' setting up wrong. Also makes you double ehceck how you set your players up.
smeborg - Mar 16, 2003 - 09:47 PM
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I suggest one of the following solutions:
- The player offended against can chose to start the drive all over again.
- Carry on playing (it's up to the players to police the game - if they miss an infringement, tough).
The above assumes, of course, that the infringer is not a blatant repeat cheater. If he is, of course, he should be tarred, feathered, hounded out of his house and home and told to live in a paper bag on t'motorway...
Cheers
Smeborg the Fleshless
Indigo - Mar 17, 2003 - 04:09 AM
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heh I can't believe the stick I have got from so many people about this whole "IP for more than just turn counter" idea. I know many of you think it's a huge crime to use it as I suggest, even so far as going for personal attacks (no names mentioned - hey I know people are as passionate about this game as me!)
All I wanted to say was this - we don't let extra players on the pitch/illegal setups etc. because when you realise that the extra man has been vital for the touchdowns scored it can really piss people off. By making it an IP for accidental occaisons, everyone checks before the game starts and as a result we have far fewer arguments and our games are a whole load more fun for it. Not to mention our players now rarely, if ever, forget boneheads.WA etc.!!
I wouldn't use this in an official setting as it simply isn't the letter of the rules, but AndyH agreed it was a decent enough idea to enforce aspects of the game that were causing problems.
(BTW in terms of the difference between boneheads and dodging, in my experience people tend to forget the Bonehead roll, whereas because dodging is such an integral part of the game that it is never forgotten - I am not claiming using IP to cure all ills is a viable system, just offering an opinion on how well it has worked for us!)
daloonieshaman - Mar 19, 2003 - 11:26 PM
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We just started playing again after 3 years, in our leage almost everyone is done with there 3rd game. we use IP's strongly
here is what happened
1st game ip's were thrown like mad for everything game took about 3 hours
2nd game far fewer mistakes most everyone moves there turn marker, wild animal ect everyttime darn near game length 2
o - 2:15 hours
3rd game 1 or 2 ip's game length 1.5 hours