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Rules Questions - Touchback question

Domine - Aug 21, 2008 - 01:06 PM
Post subject: Touchback question

Okay, the rules state "a kick-off must land in the opponent's half of the pitch" and if it "scatters or bounces off the pitch or into the kicking team's half the receiving coach is awarded a 'touchback'"...

An odd thing happened in a game today that could use some opinions...
A wood elf team was kicking the ball and a lizardman team was receiving. The scatter from the kick put the ball RIGHT BEHIND the Kroxigor at the half way line on the line of scrimmage and the Kick-Off table resulted in Perfect Defense, so all the wood elves reorganized to cluster close to the center to have a chance to break through the line and get the ball if the clumsy lizards failed to pick it up...

Then the ball bounces (cause the square was empty) into the Kroxigor... with his AG of 1, naturally he failed to catch it (not even worrying about all the tackle zones around him) and it bounces along the line to the Saurus beside him... who also has a AG of 1 and again failed to get the ball... finally it bounces over the half way line into the hands of the wood elf thrower.

Now, reading the rules as they are written, one could interpret that the kick-off DID land in the receiving teams half of the pitch and it was their clumsiness that batted it across the line, so it would only seem fair to allow the wood elves to retain what became a hilarious and unplanned onside kick...

But one could also argue that failing to catch a ball causes it to bounce, so technically it "bounced" into the receiving team's half and the lizards should receive a touchback.

I'm more inclined to go with the former decision (and did for this game) but was curious on more official answers to the argument... any ideas?

SierraKiloBravo - Aug 21, 2008 - 02:13 PM
Post subject: RE: Touchback question

It's a touchback. Once the ball crosses the midfield line, that's it.

SolarFlare - Aug 21, 2008 - 02:27 PM
Post subject: RE: Touchback question

Just confirming - It's a touchback.

Spazzfist - Aug 21, 2008 - 04:42 PM
Post subject: RE: Touchback question

Until the ball settles in one spot it is still considered part of the kickoff. If the ball crosses into the crowd or over the midfield line it is a touchback.

So in your situation it is a touchback (as was said by some before me.....)

skritter - Aug 21, 2008 - 05:51 PM
Post subject: Re: Touchback question

Domine wrote:

I'm more inclined to go with the former decision (and did for this game) but was curious on more official answers to the argument... any ideas?

I don't know why it is so hard to actually read the rule book! Laughing

(LRB5 page 8 )

THE KICK-OFF
After both teams have set up, the coach of the kicking team
places the ball in any square in the opponent???s half of the pitch,
including the opponent???s End Zone if he likes. The ball will then
scatter in a random direction. Using the Scatter template, roll the
eight-sided dice once for the direction of scatter, and then roll a
D6 to see how many squares the ball will go.

Important note: The kick-off is the only time that you roll a D6 to
see how many squares the ball moves when it scatters. This is
because kicks are very inaccurate. When rolling scatter for a
missed pass, or when the ball bounces, the ball only moves one
square per Scatter roll.

A kick-off must land in the opponent's half of the pitch. Assuming
the ball lands in the receiving team???s half of the pitch, then it will
either land in an empty square or a square occupied by a player.
If the ball lands in an empty square it will bounce one more
square (see Bouncing Balls on page 13). If the ball lands on a
square occupied by a player, the player must try to catch the ball
(see Catching the Ball on page 13). If the ball scatters or
bounces off the pitch or into the kicking team???s half, the receiving
coach is awarded a ???touchback??? and must give the ball to any
player in his team. Once the kick-off has been taken you are
ready to proceed to the first turn of the game.

----------------

Domine - Aug 21, 2008 - 06:53 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

skritter wrote:

I don't know why it is so hard to actually read the rule book! Laughing

Erm, if you had READ my post, you'd have noted I quoted those exact lines from it. It comes down to interpretation, not reading comprehension. Whether "must land in the opponent's half of the pitch" is absolute to mean that the final square it enters must be there or if the final bounce from the kick itself (not including scatter from failed catches) merely must be in the receiving area.

I know the NFL only cares if it goes out of bounds or the initial bounce is in the receiving area, but I'm not so clear on rugby (which is closer to Blood Bowl from what I DO know about it). Then again, Blood Bowl does tend to go for "simple", so it probably would still officially be a touchback Wink

skritter - Aug 21, 2008 - 09:03 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

---------------------

All kidding aside.

When I first read your post, I kinda agreed with your suggested possibility of the rule.

But it is all in the last line of the rule.... "Once the kick-off has been taken you are ready to proceed to the first turn of the game."

But in reading the rule I think it is clear enough,
but the real question is what is included as part of the kick off and what is not.

Is the catching of the ball by the receiving team part of the 'kickoff action' or part off the 'first turn'.

I think it is clear that the catch is part off the kick off action and therefore no penalty against the receiving team.

Although I personally feel it would be more fun that the mandatory catch should be apart of the turn (and NOT the kick off) and thus place some emphasis on the placement tactics of the kicking team and rewarding the kicking team for the consequence of a good kick.

-----------------

Slothman - Aug 25, 2008 - 03:02 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

Ok...just clarifying here than and is prue hypothetical as we got REAL close to this on the weekend.

This could take me a bit so bare with me as I will go through it with the kickoff procedure and my thoughts etc.

1 - Kicking Team Set up - Easy
2 - Recieving Team Set up - Easy
3 - Place the ball and roll for scatter. Now at this point I assume the ball to STILL be in the air and hasnt yet bounced. Lets assume the scatter leaves it damn close to the centre line.
4 - Roll on the kick off table - Blitz
5 - Resolve the kick off. Kicking team move players "under the ball"
6 - Bounce/Catch/Touchback. Right so know we resolve the catch, kicking team fail and it scatters over the halfway line....so this would be a touchback??

If it is I feel that is a bit harsh. I mean the ball bounced well would have.

But after reading the section on touchbacks and the above that would mean it would be a touchback.

Ok must remember that for future use....

daloonieshaman - Aug 25, 2008 - 05:54 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

okay lets see if I can make it easy

IF the ball does not end up in a players hands and ends up bouncing:
in the crowd (out the side)
over the half line
through the endzone (out the back)

it is a touchback and given to any player of the receiving team

Domine - Aug 25, 2008 - 06:07 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

Yes, it appears that no matter HOW it ends up there, if it ends up there before the kick-off is fully resolved, it's a touchback.

Although a house rule for a failed catch attempt bouncing it over the line of scrimmage without a touchback could be appropriate if all coaches agree. Officially, it's a touchback.

Slothman - Aug 25, 2008 - 09:21 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

No worries...

Nice question and one I never even considered

Doubleskulls - Aug 26, 2008 - 05:49 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

Its a touchback... hey at least you got the catch attempt. Normally when I roll a blitz the ball is too deep for me to reach!

Slothman - Aug 26, 2008 - 09:23 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

Yeh its all good.

If I hadn't of clarified and read this thread I would have played it....well the ball landed...GAME ON!!!...so its good to get clarification.

arturin - Aug 27, 2008 - 07:48 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

If it is a touchback, I have another question.

Could you fail the catch on purpose? If you don't want the player who is receiving to handle the ball, and you prefer to give it to your thrower/runner, it may be desirable.

Slothman - Aug 27, 2008 - 08:41 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Touchback question

I reckon I can answer that. Somewhere it states in the manual you always have to attempt to catch/pickup....but someone better back me up there before you take it as gospel Smile

If you have the Catch skill though you could choose to NOT reroll it.

Cramy - Aug 27, 2008 - 11:25 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Touchback question

Slothman wrote:

I reckon I can answer that. Somewhere it states in the manual you always have to attempt to catch/pickup....but someone better back me up there before you take it as gospel Smile

If you have the Catch skill though you could choose to NOT reroll it.

Yes, you have to attempt to catch. But you don't have to reroll the roll if you have the catch skill. And in the case where the catch is successful, and the player has the catch skill, one could chose to reroll the catch roll and hope to fail the second time. Wink

tenwit - Aug 27, 2008 - 03:58 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Touchback question

Cramy wrote:

And in the case where the catch is successful, and the player has the catch skill, one could chose to reroll the catch roll and hope to fail the second time. Wink

Unfortunately, this is not true:

LRB5 pg 44 wrote:

A player who has the Catch skill is allowed to re-roll the D6 if he fails a catch roll.

You cannot reroll a successful catch with Catch.

You can reroll it with a team re-roll though.

Sebco - Aug 27, 2008 - 04:32 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Touchback question

tenwit wrote:

You cannot reroll a successful catch with Catch.

You can reroll it with a team re-roll though.

Well, I don't think you can use a team reroll for that, as this die roll doesn't ocurre during your team turn but during the kick-off phase.

daloonieshaman - Aug 27, 2008 - 05:35 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Touchback question

you must make the attempt to catch the ball
you have the choice to use a skill or not
you may not use a team re-roll as your turn has not started

arturin - Aug 28, 2008 - 12:31 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Touchback question

OK, so I would have to attempt to catch the ball. If the player had Dodge I could choose to use it, but as the skill only allows to re-roll failed rolls, it would not be useful to force the touchback. Team re-rolls would also be useless, as my turn has not yet begun.

Tricky for beginners like me Rolling Eyes

Cramy - Aug 28, 2008 - 05:58 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Touchback question

tenwit wrote:

Cramy wrote:

And in the case where the catch is successful, and the player has the catch skill, one could chose to reroll the catch roll and hope to fail the second time. Wink

Unfortunately, this is not true:

LRB5 pg 44 wrote:

A player who has the Catch skill is allowed to re-roll the D6 if he fails a catch roll.

You cannot reroll a successful catch with Catch.

You can reroll it with a team re-roll though.

I stand corrected.