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Converting - Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

jonluke - Oct 31, 2008 - 05:38 AM
Post subject: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

I'm thinking of making some fantasy football pitches (that would work for bloodbowl) with relief cut markings and sculpted detailing. I'd probably be looking for between £100 and £150 for each board but this could include a number of seperate details such as a zombie crawling from the ground or some dead players.
Other possibilities are for personalised sponsors in relief upon the pitch itself.

This topic is just to guage interest and see if people are willing to spend that much or think it is too much/too little.

These are the general idea, they'd also have dugouts and turn counters and score markers and such along the sidelines.
Other possibles would be the inclusion of pillars or trees or waterlogged areas for different teams home grounds.

Please have a look and reply if you like or don't like the idea.
Thanks, Jon.

arturin - Oct 31, 2008 - 10:09 AM
Post subject: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

Which material are you using? What size will the squares have?

The price looks pretty high, so some more details would be helpful to judge.

AK_Dave - Oct 31, 2008 - 10:18 AM
Post subject: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

Very expensive, and your pitch is one square too long in each direction. The endzone should only be one square deep, not two.

jonluke - Nov 01, 2008 - 07:34 AM
Post subject: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

The pitch has an extra touchdown square which makes no difference to the game. Each square is 30mm on a side at the moment but will be matched to a bloodbowl pitch once I've measured one.

For pricing you should consider that this is going to rival forgeworld quality, I'm a professional modelmaker and the basic pitch pics I've displayed are an hours mockup on rhino.

There will also be stands, team specific dugouts, pitch details, score counters, different variations on pitches (Eg. Temple pitch, dungeon, raft, wood, marsh, paved . . .) Personalised sponsors (you get to choose).

Materials:

The originals will be made in chemiwood, densities of which will vary according to which pitch I'm building. The details will be sculpted in greenstuff or plastilene and cast in F15 or F18 resin (the resins forgeworld uses).

Spazzfist - Nov 01, 2008 - 07:38 AM
Post subject: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

The idea is good, and I am sure the quality is equally good, I can appreciate the need to charge a significant smount for each board, but do not hink that you are going to find enough people willing to pay this to make it worth your while.

I wish you the best of luck though!

GalakStarscraper - Nov 01, 2008 - 08:52 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

jonluke wrote:

The pitch has an extra touchdown square which makes no difference to the game.

Problem is when you demo product doesn't even match the current official rules ... it does make the buyer think you are not clued in. Its all in the marketing ... my friend. 2 1/2 years in this business has taught me that.

Oh and your response of "it doesn't matter" ... that doesn't lend itself to me to think that you work well with customers as that's a pretty poor customer service remark.

I'm one of the collector types that would purchase such a thing ... but not with what I've seen with what you display as a demo and how you respond to inquiries. I'll pass now ... thanks.

Galak

Clan_Skaven - Nov 01, 2008 - 09:45 AM
Post subject:

I'd have to see a finnished pitch to really have an opinion on yes or no...

jonluke - Nov 01, 2008 - 10:13 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

Galak:
Oh and your response of "it doesn't matter"

Jonluke:
Where's this response?

Galak:
I'm one of the collector types that would purchase such a thing ... but not with what I've seen with what you display as a demo and how you respond to inquiries. I'll pass now ... thanks.

Jonluke:
_ I apologize if you think that as a customer service remark this was impolite, the board itself would be marketed through independent stores online, it also is not allowed to be the same set-out as a bloodbowl pitch due to copyright infringement, the extra squares in the touchdown zones make no effect to any gameplay other than if desired you could make an even longer pass action into the touchdown zone - as far as I can tell this has no advantage.
I'm not looking to make a large amount of money out of this product, I'm interested in serving the bloodbowl community and hopefully making peoples games even more interesting, this isn't a demo product, it's a probing discovery into a social network for bloodbowl enthusiasts.

In answer to other queries, I'll be producing a small number for my teams and local tournaments anyway, the public offer will be forwarded if the response here is good enough and I'll modify what I'm producing in accordance with your views, costing will be more accurate once I've built some stuff.

I'll get some pictures of a more complete board as soon as possible.

Thanks for you comments, keep 'em coming.

GalakStarscraper - Nov 01, 2008 - 12:38 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

jonluke wrote:

Jonluke:
_ I apologize if you think that as a customer service remark this was impolite, the board itself would be marketed through independent stores online, it also is not allowed to be the same set-out as a bloodbowl pitch due to copyright infringement

Now see ... that is a good customer service answer ... much better.

Quote:

the extra squares in the touchdown zones make no effect to any gameplay other than if desired you could make an even longer pass action into the touchdown zone - as far as I can tell this has no advantage.

However if you market them as Blood Bowl pitches ... you are going to have the same IP issue even if the layout has the extra endzone squares. So I wish you luck. It really comes down to if GW deems you worth squashing.

I wish you luck ... as I've been down this road for a different yet extremely similar item already as well.

Galak

jonluke - Nov 01, 2008 - 01:35 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

"However if you market them as Blood Bowl pitches ... you are going to have the same IP issue even if the layout has the extra endzone squares. So I wish you luck. It really comes down to if GW deems you worth squashing."
I'd sell them under fantasy football pitches, or see if one of the independent online stores wanted to pick them up, such as elfball.

Never know, if it's good enough even Forgeworld might consider it.

We can dream right?

AK_Dave - Nov 01, 2008 - 01:54 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

One square makes a difference between a push and a crowdpush. Fun to find a catcher who is standing in the endzone waiting for the ball and give the crowd a birthday present all giftwrapped in a BB uniform. Doesn't happen often, usually as a result of a fumbled play elsewhere on the pitch, but I've done it once in the last 10 years so I wouldn't mind doing it again.

jonluke - Nov 01, 2008 - 02:09 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodb

AK_Dave wrote:

I stand corrected, there is an advantage. Very Happy

I could put a spike pit there or somesuch evil nasty that'd have the same affect.

Darkson - Nov 01, 2008 - 03:19 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodb

jonluke wrote:

I'd sell them under fantasy football pitches, or see if one of the independent online stores wanted to pick them up, such as elfball.

Impact already sold fantasy Football pitches - those are the ones that Galak mentioned being pulled (I got one thankfully).
And seeing as Impact own elfball, and they've already had GW on to them about one pitch, I doubt they'd be interested in taking on another.

As for me, it might well end up looking wonderful, but at £100+, it's way out of my league of what I'd pay (that buys a lot of figs).

Oh, and unles you're going to make the squares exactly the same size as the BB pitch, you're going to need a resized passing template, which is something else GW frowns upon.

Punkpogoer - Nov 01, 2008 - 03:20 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bl

I'm sure the pitches would look very cool, but I would consider myself the "average" Blood Bowl enthusiast and $160 to $240 is just way out of my gaming budget.

Darkson - Nov 01, 2008 - 03:24 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl use.

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Doesn't GW still own the IP from their 2nd edition pitch? Question

jonluke - Nov 01, 2008 - 04:35 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

the size thing does indeed change the advantages of throwing teams compared to bashy or runny teams, however, the original GW polystyrene board was much smaller, yet used the same throwing templates and is also Tournament legal for their BB cups, this considered I think the very minor size difference is tolerable, however I will be trying to match the BB pitch square sizes.

From the comments so far the main problem here appears to be the price. I'l do my best to cut the cost as much as possible. In argument I would offer the examples of the regular sales of NAF version blocking dice on ebay for $40US - for 3 dice.
But I will try to keep the price down.

GW says that the problem with pitch selling that infringes them is that the majority of their sales of Bloodbowl are for pitches. Gamers tend to buy and convert teams from all over the place but can only buy pitches in the full box set.

I didn't know that elfbal had already had to withdraw the sales of pitches, that would indeed seem to limit the possibilities.

GW copyright policy maintains that 8 major changes (Pitch length, dugout attachments, turn counter inclusion, dead zombie rising, sponsor picture, pitch relief writing, original design and construction, crowd stands, gates, underground elements, square size difference etc...) will deviate from their design far enough in order to alleviate legal complications. However, I'm sure that GW legal staff will have all sorts of ways of killing a project if they deem it necessary.

GalakStarscraper - Nov 01, 2008 - 05:18 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

jonluke,

History lesson to help you out.

http://www.impactminiatures.com/FeltMats.html

First two are actually pictures of what we sold that GW contacted us over. Nothing but lines on felt which I'm told per the USA lawyers is perfectly legal for us to sell. In our webstore the words Blood Bowl never appeared anywhere on the site or with this item. GW-UK legal gets hold of me and says they disagree. They believe they can copyright a pattern of lines. At the end of the day ... we never received an official cease and desist letter but to smooth the waters for opening BBFigs.com ... we took them out of the online store. Problem is we sold so many to vendors way before that exchange ... that I'm sure they'll be around for some time to come through other channels.

Galak

Darkson - Nov 01, 2008 - 07:03 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodb

jonluke wrote:

the original GW polystyrene board was much smaller, yet used the same throwing templates and is also Tournament legal for their BB cups,

Incorrect - all the GW run tourneys use the standard 3rd ed pitch. I honestly don't know of any tournament (NAF or not) that's used the 2nd ed pitch.

GalakStarscraper - Nov 01, 2008 - 08:22 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodb

Darkson wrote:

jonluke wrote:

the original GW polystyrene board was much smaller, yet used the same throwing templates and is also Tournament legal for their BB cups,

Incorrect - all the GW run tourneys use the standard 3rd ed pitch. I honestly don't know of any tournament (NAF or not) that's used the 2nd ed pitch.

Darkson is correct ... GW or Fan run ... doesn't matter. No one has ever used a 2nd edition board for any tournament in NAF history as far as I know.

Galak

jonluke - Nov 02, 2008 - 06:22 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

The price issue is the biggest worry, I'll do my best to keep the costs down and will have more accurate pricing once I've actually constructed a pitch or two. Having weighed the board I've already got (Acrylic rather than chemiwood) I reckon I could get the price to between £80 and £120, but considering there are regular sales of NAF blocking dice at $40 on ebay (3 blacks are currently £26 - nearly $45) I was thinking there are people willing to pay a lot for quality items.

GW copyright policy states 8 major changes to a products design differs far enough for independent sales without infringement - I'll have to find out what "major changes to a products design" really means but it sounds promising at least.

Could I also ask people to count up their biggest forgeworld order to date so far, mine comes in at £160 for an epic Imperial Guard army (and I'm a fairly average gamer aswell).

Cheers.

jonluke - Nov 02, 2008 - 06:24 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodb

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Darkson wrote:

jonluke wrote:

the original GW polystyrene board was much smaller, yet used the same throwing templates and is also Tournament legal for their BB cups,

Incorrect - all the GW run tourneys use the standard 3rd ed pitch. I honestly don't know of any tournament (NAF or not) that's used the 2nd ed pitch.

Darkson is correct ... GW or Fan run ... doesn't matter. No one has ever used a 2nd edition board for any tournament in NAF history as far as I know.

Galak

Fair enough, though the BB tourny pack (now 3 years old) does say that any GW board may be used - though I also have never seen a 2nd Ed board in use at a tourny.

arturin - Nov 02, 2008 - 08:09 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodb

jonluke wrote:

... but considering there are regular sales of NAF blocking dice at $40 on ebay (3 blacks are currently £26 - nearly $45) I was thinking there are people willing to pay a lot for quality items....

With the NAF membership we get 3 blocking dice for $10, so for most of the market you should reduce the price 4 times Wink

Spazzfist - Nov 02, 2008 - 09:00 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodb

jonluke wrote:

It is not that these are "quality" items, they are out of print and otherwise unavailable by any other means.

Like I said, I undesratnd you need gto charge a reasonable price for your boards, but you cannot compare your boards to the black blocking dice. The dice are no longer available, the same is not true with your board.

jonluke - Nov 02, 2008 - 10:04 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bl

White dice are regularly available at a fraction of the cost, it is only for colours that people fork out many figs.

I'm afraid I was incorrect on the tournament issue, though they do say that any board GW produce is ok, they specify later that it must be a 2nd Ed. board. So I shall endeavour to replicate those square sizes.

SBG - Nov 02, 2008 - 08:17 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bl

I might sound pretty diffeerent from everyone so far, but I'd be willing to pay the extra bucks for a custom-fitted pitch with my team names and some advertisements!

And about the second row of squares in the end zone: what about custom nameplates for the home teams, or even a few media members? We see plenty of photographers in the NFL endzones, it could be sribes and drawers for BB?

Just my two cents, but I'd definitely be interested Jonluke.

Fred

jonluke - Nov 03, 2008 - 04:54 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bl

I've talked to some people who know a little more about GW copyright policy and if the board was sold GW would probably not be concerned so long as it didnt affect their sales, however it is borderline and they might decide to notice it.

I've begun costing the first pitch (a very simple board with few "extra" details, just the necessary parts) and it's construction appears cheaper than anticipated, I'll keep you posted.

AK_Dave - Nov 03, 2008 - 01:49 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bl

I guess a lot of this depends on what you plan to make each pitch out of, and how much effort you plan to put into automating the procedure.

You could go with blueboard/pinkboard dense foam insulation, and make a hotwire form that allows you to cut out entire sections of pitch complete with lines in one or two passes. More complicated would be a big cast-iron waffle press. You could go with a computer directed laser-etch tool and quality plywood, burning lines as you go. Remember to account for the thickness of lines when you measure square size. If you vary square size from standard, I suggest bumping to 40mm squares because other people already make and sell a custom rangeruler for that gauge pitch.

For the money you're talking, I'd like to see a single pitch that is usable for Bloodbowl, Sevens, and maybe even Beachball. Simply adding a couple extra sets of lines in different colors does that. As does modularity.

jonluke - Nov 04, 2008 - 12:30 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bl

The method I'm proposing is to pour-cast high detail resin into a silicon mold, the resin will have a material (as yet unspecified) within it, much like reinforced concrete with steel. This material will prevent warping of the board and will keep the cost of the resin to a minimum.
Currently the board was going to be 3 slot together sections, with relief crosses marking the squares (so flock or custom built paving slabs or wooden sections could be easily applied in between) and relief writing for sponsors and pitch markings.

- As for the moduler suggestion to make the pitches usable for multiple games - sounds like a great idea, I'll do some research and see if it's possible.

- 40mm squares woiuld dramatically increase the board size and therefore the cost.

Cheers for the suggestions.

AK_Dave - Nov 04, 2008 - 10:42 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bl

Okay, now I understand the cost. You're contemplating the production of a Bloodbowl equivilant of Dwarven Forge.

Rabid_Bogscum - Nov 05, 2008 - 02:34 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

i would consider one based on some finished ideas...

Virral - Nov 07, 2008 - 11:47 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

I thought you already had a custom board Rabid Smile

jonluke - Nov 11, 2008 - 02:02 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

The extra square issue: Also for ball scatter into the crowd, especially on kick offs this extra square can make the difference between touch zone and crowd, potentially the difference between goal and not for a fast team. I'll think about how to change this.

AK_Dave - Nov 11, 2008 - 02:38 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

Don't mark the inside edges of the squares in the double-wide endzone. Make it a big rectangle with squares marked only by little dags along the outer border. That leaves the endzone as a nice open canvas for lettering. After thinking about the endzone issue, I think it is a nonissue. Anyone can play the pitch as "official" by ignoring the second row.

jonluke - Nov 14, 2008 - 03:09 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

The non-marking idea sounds good, it means the writing or sponsors pics in it would then be unbroken by little crosses aswell.

ManticoreRich - Sep 04, 2009 - 02:11 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Fantasy Football Pitches suitable for Bloodbowl

Any chance of some pictures dude?