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Rules Questions - Skill & Trait uses.

Clan_Skaven - Feb 24, 2004 - 08:54 PM
Post subject: Skill & Trait uses.

Can a Rat Ogre if he has the Diving Tackle Skill use it combined with Prehensile Tail? (Giving an opponent a total of -3 to the doge roll) Shocked

Thanks in adavnce!

Zombie - Feb 24, 2004 - 09:05 PM
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Yes.

Clan_Skaven - Feb 24, 2004 - 09:29 PM
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sweet, only problem, is hes then on the ground. Sad

Zombie - Feb 24, 2004 - 10:16 PM
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That's why you're much better off giving him tentacles on a double.

Mordredd - Feb 25, 2004 - 11:20 AM
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Really? I thought that you couldn't use two skills to apply a cumulative modifier to a roll. For example you could not use mighty blow and claw to add +3 to an armour roll. If that is true then the answer to the original question is no.

Zombie - Feb 25, 2004 - 11:34 AM
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I believe this rule only applies on armour and injury rolls nowadays, though i may be wrong about this.

madhobbit - Feb 26, 2004 - 08:19 AM
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I believe zombie's right. Otherwise using strong arm and accurate together on a pass wouldn't be allowed either.

Mordredd - Feb 26, 2004 - 10:09 AM
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Sorry, but that example in no way proves Zombie correct. You can only use strong arm and accurate together because one gives you a skill modifier to the roll and the other changes the effective range of the pass. If they both gave a skill modifier (say +1 to pass and +2 to pass) then they could not be used together.

Zombie - Feb 26, 2004 - 10:14 AM
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You're right, strong arm and accurate have always been allowed together for that reason. I would never use them as an argument. Like i said, if inded i'm right and you can now add multiple modifiers to rolls other than armour and injury, this is a recent change; it sure wasn't that way in third ed. I'm still not sure though. I thought i read about this somewhere in the last few years, but can't remember where exactly. It may be that i'm going senile and the rule hasn't changed and you can't add modifiers no matter the kind of roll.

Clan_Skaven - Feb 26, 2004 - 10:40 AM
Post subject: hmm

Unless I'm wrong or unless its stated elsewhere. page 34 of the LRB "You can't add bonusses from 2 or more skills or traights to modify an armour or injury roll"

So I'd agree that you can use 2 or more skills or traights to modify an AG roll. So I'd think that you could add together the -1 from Prehensile Tail & the -2 from Diving Tackle for a total of -3 on a Dodge roll.

Where does it say otherwise?

Darkson - Feb 26, 2004 - 10:41 AM
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I don't think you can use Prehensile Tail with DT, as PTail doesn't work while Prone.

Clan_Skaven - Feb 26, 2004 - 10:57 AM
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interesting point, but could one not argue that the Prehensile Tail grabs you first to start to trip u up then you use DT ?

Zombie - Feb 26, 2004 - 11:03 AM
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Prehensile tail adds +1 to the dodge roll because it's one extra limb for you to grab the other player with. When using diving tackle, you're still trying to grab the other player, the only difference is that you straight out jump at him. There's no reason why you couldn't use an extra limb in this case as well.

Doubleskulls - Feb 26, 2004 - 05:24 PM
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Darkson wrote:

I don't think you can use Prehensile Tail with DT, as PTail doesn't work while Prone.

You aren't prone until after using DT...

Darkson - Feb 26, 2004 - 05:41 PM
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Ah, then maybe I was reading the skill describtion wrong, as it says place the player prone then the dodger takes the -2 from the dodge roll.

Zombie - Feb 26, 2004 - 08:01 PM
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Why does he get -2? Because you're going down, and that scares him? No, because you're jumping right at him! You can do that with your tail too!

Darkson - Feb 27, 2004 - 02:48 AM
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I always understood it as a last-ditch diving grasp, which was why you were going prone.

If I'm wrong, that's fine, I just had the timing all wrong.

pfooti - Feb 27, 2004 - 10:25 AM
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Darkson wrote:

Ah, then maybe I was reading the skill describtion wrong, as it says place the player prone then the dodger takes the -2 from the dodge roll.

Actually, this was a Really Boring Argument I had on TBB with Galak about a year ago. There is a timing hole somewhere in the way DT is currently worded (especially when it interacts with the oppo using a reroll).

Here's a for-example. If a player is dodging through your TZ (from one to another), it is a straight AG roll (+1 for the dodge, -1 for the TZ). If you use diving tackle, it becomes -2, because the TZ penalty still applies. Furthermore, if the opponent fails the roll and uses dodge, he still has to roll at -2, even though you're prone now, not exerting a TZ, and not even really forcing him to dodge.

In a similar way, you should be able to use PT with DT for a cumulative -3.

At the end of our long (and boring) soapboxy argument, Galak agreed to add something to the Hotlist on the order of changing the wording of DT so the player goes prone after the dodge attempt is resolved. But he didn't.

In the old days, you couldn't have two modifiers stack, which is why Strong Arm and Accurate are different but similar. Nowadays, they could be the same, because the only restriction is stacking mods to armor and injury rolls (as has been pointed out).

Clan_Skaven - Feb 27, 2004 - 11:08 AM
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pfooti wrote:

Darkson wrote:

Ah, then maybe I was reading the skill describtion wrong, as it says place the player prone then the dodger takes the -2 from the dodge roll.

ok yours saying a total of -3, but you still get the +1 for making the dodge? So if Dodging to an empty square from an opponent who uses Prehensile Tail & DT, then it would be +1 + -3= -2. So it would be a minus 2 not a minus 3 right?

pfooti - Feb 27, 2004 - 11:51 AM
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right, my mistake.

Zombie - Feb 27, 2004 - 04:22 PM
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Darkson wrote:

I always understood it as a last-ditch diving grasp, which was why you were going prone.

If I'm wrong, that's fine, I just had the timing all wrong.

The fact that you can declare the skill after seeing the result of the dodge (which is stupid and something i'll always fight against) is probably what got you confused.

Zombie - Feb 27, 2004 - 04:25 PM
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pfooti wrote:

Here's a for-example. If a player is dodging through your TZ (from one to another), it is a straight AG roll (+1 for the dodge, -1 for the TZ). If you use diving tackle, it becomes -2, because the TZ penalty still applies. Furthermore, if the opponent fails the roll and uses dodge, he still has to roll at -2, even though you're prone now, not exerting a TZ, and not even really forcing him to dodge.

Don't look at skill rerolls as something that gives you a second chance when you fail the first time. They will never make sense that way. Look at them as an increased chance of succeeding in your first attempt. Then you won't see the reroll as a timing issue anymore.

Clan_Skaven - Feb 27, 2004 - 11:07 PM
Post subject: Zombie is right

Zombie is right! A reroll is almost like going back in time. Thats why its called a RERoll. If it were a second chane that took place after the initial roll, I guess they woulda called it a SECONDRoll.

Did that make any if at all any sense?

Maybe someone can explain it better than I.

Rod

Mordredd - Mar 02, 2004 - 09:25 AM
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Quote:

No, because you're jumping right at him! You can do that with your tail too!

This one made me laugh. A Rat Ogre's hands and tail are almost at opposite ends of his body. They are certainly a long way apart when he dives with his arms stretched out to tackle a player. There is no way they could be used together. Better to think of it as the tail putting the dodger off balance, and the dive finishing him off.

pfooti - Mar 02, 2004 - 11:19 AM
Post subject: Re: Zombie is right

Clan-Skaven wrote:

Actually, that's what I always thought, but that doesn't make sense in light of everyhing else. Here's the big deal:

If rerolls were really RErolls, your opponent shouldn't be allowed to change his/her skill selections for the second roll. Example:

I dodge, roll 1. Reroll, get a 3. You decide to use DT after seeing the second roll. If the reroll were truly a REroll, you shouldn't be able to DT after the second roll, just the first. But because you can add a skill to the second roll that isn't in the first, the reroll is actually a SECOND roll, and SOME (but not ALL) of the modifiers to the roll get retotaled. Bleh.

Zombie - Mar 02, 2004 - 02:38 PM
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This problem is only present because players are allowed to decide whether to use diving tackle after seeing the dice roll. The rule should never have been made this way, and i still hope they're eventually see the light and make it declare before.

pfooti - Mar 02, 2004 - 04:15 PM
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I agree.