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Rules Questions - Illegal Procedures

SBG - Mar 18, 2004 - 12:39 PM
Post subject: Illegal Procedures

Hi guys!

First: I don't want to start over the debate about should we play with it or not. This is not about that! For the purpose of this post, please know that we DO play with IP in my league.

This is what happened: Skaven vs Dwarves. Skaven's first move is a dodge to reach the end zone. When he reaches it, Dwarf coach realizes there is an IP. What's going on now?

The guy had a re-roll left, so he used it, but what if he didn't have one handy. Play is brought back or player stops one step short of the endzone or nothing happens??

Let me know!

Fred

Darkson - Mar 18, 2004 - 12:44 PM
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Had the dice been rolled? If so, tough, the IP should have been called before IMO.

[Edit] Let me re-phrase that. If the oppo coach realises he called an IP after the fact, then he's missed the chance to call it. So in the case above, if the Skaven coach has rolled for the dodge, then he's missed his chance and a TD is scored. If he noticed after the rat has moved the fig, but before he's rolled the dice, I'd play it that the rat would go back to the last sqauare he could enter without rolling. This was the way we did it wen we first sarted playing.

Melifaxis - Mar 18, 2004 - 12:53 PM
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Seems fair to me.

Doubleskulls - Mar 18, 2004 - 02:09 PM
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I'd say that if you have scored - tough its too late. But if the Dwarf player said anything before you actually finished moving into the endzone then the IP ought to stand.

Slinky78 - Mar 18, 2004 - 02:25 PM
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I'd be inclined to agree with Darkson. If he's rolled for the dodge, and thus started the move action then I'd expect the IP only kicks in at the end of the curent action (i.e. before any more dice are rolled). As the action is underway it seems most clinical to allow it to complete (not the same as then letting someone block because they declared a blitz). If for no other reason than you'll get all sorts of debate about "what if he was in the endzone but the coach was still holding the mini, so technically he hadn't finished", or "I called IP before his foot crossed the line - prove it...".

Zombie - Mar 18, 2004 - 02:43 PM
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On a related topic, when we play with a timer around here (a rare occurance but necessary with some excruciatingly slow coaches), we allow the coach to finish moving the currently active player. Sounds like people are advocating the same thing for illegal procedure. It makes sense, but is in no way official.

Hoshi_Komi - Mar 18, 2004 - 03:40 PM
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if he got to to the endzone without getting caught it's a freebie.

Aramil - Mar 18, 2004 - 05:07 PM
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In Italy we do that way:
in the moment you call the IP, your opponent must burn a RR or stop the action in that moment. Everything he did before remain... so, in the case your talking about, if the TD was already scored, it's valid... if, at the contrary, the IP was called before the mini reached the end zone, then the situation must be "freezed" and the turn ends.

pfooti - Mar 18, 2004 - 06:04 PM
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So, out of curiosity: what happens if you have an oldschool WA (move first, must block), and you move your lineman 1 square into the endzone with no rolls needed first?

It isn't an IP until you move the lineman, and at that point, he's in the EZ.

Zombie - Mar 18, 2004 - 07:11 PM
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It isn't an IP until you touch the lineman. As soon as you touch it, he should call the IP. Of course, if you move the player so fast as to leave him no chance of calling it, he's still entitled to call it on you.

Doubleskulls - Mar 19, 2004 - 02:32 AM
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pfooti wrote:

That's cheating...

Mordredd - Mar 19, 2004 - 07:45 AM
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Zombie wrote:

It isn't an IP until you touch the lineman. As soon as you touch it, he should call the IP.

Wrong. Touching the model is not enough, and neither is declaring an action.

LRB wrote:

If he forgets to move the counter before taking an action with one or more of his players, then the opposing coach is allowed to call for an ???illegal procedure??? penalty as soon as he spots the mistake. An action is considered to be moving one or more squares, or rolling the dice to throw a block, pass the ball or dodge.

In the case first cited in this thread the Skaven player scores, and did not even have to burn a re roll. The Dwarf player has simply noticed the IP too late.

LRB wrote:

... basically a coach that suffers a turnover must end his turn immediately ??? even if part way through a player???s action.

It is quite clear that you do not take back any moves made by players and that you cannot be IPed before the dodge roll is made.

pfooti - Mar 19, 2004 - 10:25 AM
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The LRB sez that an IP happens when you move a player one or more squares or roll a die. In my league, we force a "takeback" if the coach doesn't burn a reroll, to avoid this particular situation (unpreventably scoring during an IP).

While I agree with doubleskull's sentiment: "I'ts cheating", I don't think it is really cheating. I'd say that it is unsportsmanlike, but it is only cheating if it is against the rules.

mtn_bike - Mar 19, 2004 - 10:37 AM
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Quote LRB P8
A coach that suffers a turnover must end his turn immediately - even if part way through a players action. The only exception is that Armour rolls and injury must still be made for players that have been knocked over.

That says to me that the spot where the player is in the movement is where the player should stop. So if the move was one space to the end zone then the TD still counts. At least in my world.

mtn_bike - Mar 19, 2004 - 11:03 AM
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Zombie wrote:

I have to disagree with you zombie. (That has never been said before Wink

) Refacing players or turning them is not a turnover but you need to touch them to do that. I was called on that one game when I was fresh to BB and didn't know any better. But you bring up a valid point about fast movers though. I'm not big on letting people pick up players and placing them in the new spot that was counted out mentally. I need to see the path. One reason you will get that guy who is in a rush and pick up the player scoring the TD and move him 2+ spaces to place him in the EZ without moving the turnmarker. In that case if an IP is called then I would rule that the player gets to move one spot from where he started.

Hoshi_Komi - Mar 19, 2004 - 12:07 PM
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IP is a stupid rule anyway. it's so 2nd grade...haha I caught you. How come warhammer doesn't have a turn marker...their games only go a limited amount of turns.
IP is there to teach coaches to move their turn marker....after that it's lost it's place.

Zombie - Mar 19, 2004 - 12:11 PM
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I guess that IP when touching a player must have been the 3rd ed rule then. Didn't know they changed it. That does complicate things now.

Mordredd - Mar 19, 2004 - 03:40 PM
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I was pretty sure it was, but I looked it up anyway, and the wording is the same in the 3rd Ed. handbook as in the LRB. I can't think where you could have got the 'IP for touching' thing from.

Hoshi_Komi - Mar 19, 2004 - 05:05 PM
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probably chess rule.

Zombie - Mar 19, 2004 - 05:56 PM
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I don't have the rulebook with me here, but i do remember reading "the only thing you're allowed to do before moving the turn marker is think!"

Kernspalt - Mar 20, 2004 - 08:02 AM
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Well, the whole rule is very easy to abuse, but when you're not playing with the old WA rules, everybody will probably simply move their merker instead of thinking about how to cheat around this rule.

In my BB league, we usually handle it this way: Touching is ok, since we turn usually turn all players to face the enemy half at the begin of the turn, and facing backwards when they have moved.

When you move a player, we announce what kind of action he does while we move the miniature: He doing a move, here, here, here...etc. . This way, there is no confusion on whether he uses a pass or blitz move, and you can call IP as soon as the move is announced. Another reason for this was, however, that we have a few new players around currently, and this helps them to understand what you're doing.

Zombie - Mar 20, 2004 - 03:07 PM
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Calling the action out loud is not a house rule, it's the official rule and everyone must do it.

Kernspalt - Mar 21, 2004 - 08:42 AM
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Well, than you can easily call your IP as soon as the action is called out loud, or not?

pfooti - Mar 21, 2004 - 09:42 AM
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Not a normal IP. Probably not for the old WA. The IP rules say that you call IP on moving a figure or rolling dice. The old WA rules say you call IP "exactly like if he had forgotton to move the turn counter". But I dunno.

Zombie - Mar 21, 2004 - 01:34 PM
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No, you can say anything you want about your player's actions and your opponent's mother, it's stil not an IP. In any case, the action called is not set in stone until you've started moving the player or rolling dice. Until then, there's always time to change your mind and call another action instead.