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Rules Questions - Hand Off vs. Quick Pass
BlanchPrez - Mar 03, 2003 - 07:58 AM
Post subject: Hand Off vs. Quick Pass
Hey all,
I already posted this on TBB, but I thougth I'd post it here to get more opinions. So, for those on both boards, sorry for the double post. 
We ran into an interesting situation in our game last night. A human player had possession of the ball, but with only one turn in the match, was not going to be able to score. His catcher had the ball, and wated to pass it to the other catcher to get SPP's. Now, the other catcher was in the square adjacent to his first catcher, and he assumed that would make it a quick pass. As league commissioner, I ruled that it would not be a quick pass, but rather a hand off, as that's only a one square pass. However, looking through the rules, we couldn't find anything that said one way or the other. So, I'm curious what everyone else here says about this situation.
Chris
skummy - Mar 03, 2003 - 08:21 AM
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What you're trying to do is stop milking the rules for star player points. There isn't a rule against making a pass when standing right next to each other. In fact if they mistakenly declared it their pass action instead of a handoff it could be a hinderance in a game situation as they would have to make two rolls instead of one. If you're going to make rules against this type of behavior, you might as well outlaw fouling on the last turn of the game.
Your intentions are good, but too many house rules can quickly become a problem in and of themselves.
Grotemuis - Mar 03, 2003 - 08:22 AM
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It's very dumb but you can throw the ball when you're adjacent to each other.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 03, 2003 - 08:31 AM
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There is nothing wrong with a Quick Pass to an adjacent player.
My Halflings team does this as frequently we used the handoff in the back field to move the ball forward. I move adjacent so that if it is inaccurate or the catcher drops it ... its more likely to scatter to someone who might catch it or have an extra TZ on it.
Sorry, but what he did was perfectly legal.
Galak
BlanchPrez - Mar 03, 2003 - 08:58 AM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Sorry, but what he did was perfectly legal.
Galak
No need to be sorry, that's why I posted this here. 
I wasn't actually trying to stop him from getting SPP's (I didnt mind that part, and neither did the coach he was playing), I just didnt' think that you should be able to make a one square pass. That's what a hand-off is. I mean, would you really make a pass to someone right next to you? When the rules didn't say the minimum distance of a pass, I made a ruling. I just wondered what other people thought of here, so I'm not offended by people with different opinions. Hell, I might even change my mind on my ruling if people can convince me.
Chris
Indigo - Mar 03, 2003 - 09:01 AM
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I know why you think it's wrong, but it is a legal move. It has parallels with real life - imagine a quarterback being handed the ball then making a really short pass to a team mate if under pressure (for example).
I use this approach all the time in leagues, to get extra SPPs, but in tournies it is hand offs unless I cannot avoid it.
skummy - Mar 03, 2003 - 09:17 AM
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Actually, the best NFL example is the "Shovel Pass." It is used mostly when the defence is expecting a passing play and doesn't rush up the middle. The QB takes a 3 step drop and flips the ball forward to the HB. It's technically a forward pass, but is a designed play that rarely goes more than 2 yards in the air.
Dave - Mar 03, 2003 - 12:40 PM
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It's OK by me
BlanchPrez - Mar 03, 2003 - 03:14 PM
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skummy wrote:
Actually, the best NFL example is the "Shovel Pass." It is used mostly when the defence is expecting a passing play and doesn't rush up the middle. The QB takes a 3 step drop and flips the ball forward to the HB. It's technically a forward pass, but is a designed play that rarely goes more than 2 yards in the air.
Hmmm... a Shovel Pass. I hadn't thought of that one. I guess it's kind of like a Dump Off. That makes sense.
I may just have to change me ruling. Now, before and of you go and say if I do that I should give him his SPP, it's a moot point anyway. In this particular example, his first catcher had the ball because his thrower had passed it to him, so he already used his pass action for the turn. It just brought up an interesting point, and one that I felt needed a ruling on.
Thanks, guys!
Chris
Darkson - Mar 03, 2003 - 07:23 PM
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You also have to look at it the other way. If the hand off had happened earlier in the turn, and the 2 players ended up adjacent for whatever reason (TZ, etc) would you say "No, you can't pass as you are adjacent, and you've already used for hand-off, Tough Luck?". No, neither would I.
Cervidal - Mar 04, 2003 - 05:40 AM
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I do the same as the guy looking for the SPPs often, even in the middle of a game. If I have formed my pass pocket well, I will try to get in the extra SPP. It ends up being a fairly low risk attempt because if I fumble, I still have the ball protected; if I fail to catch the ball, I have possibly two players with tackle zones on the ball.
BlanchPrez - Mar 04, 2003 - 08:38 AM
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Darkson wrote:
You also have to look at it the other way. If the hand off had happened earlier in the turn, and the 2 players ended up adjacent for whatever reason (TZ, etc) would you say "No, you can't pass as you are adjacent, and you've already used for hand-off, Tough Luck?". No, neither would I.
I'm not sure I understand this comment. A hand-off is not a pass action, it's a hand-off action. And as far as I know of, you get no SPP's for a hand-off. What I was saying earlier is that he couldn't have made the adjaent square pass, as he had already passed. He could have handed-off the ball if he wanted to, that's a different story. If I misunderstood your comment, my apologies.
Chris
skummy - Mar 04, 2003 - 08:40 AM
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I think he means that you can only make one hand off a turn. If you make a handoff to a player, and have them run downfield on a declared pass, dodge into an adjacent tackle zone and not be able to make the pass becasue they are standing next to the player they want to give the ball to, that would be bad.
BlanchPrez - Mar 04, 2003 - 12:50 PM
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skummy wrote:
I think he means that you can only make one hand off a turn. If you make a handoff to a player, and have them run downfield on a declared pass, dodge into an adjacent tackle zone and not be able to make the pass becasue they are standing next to the player they want to give the ball to, that would be bad.
Oh! Yeah, that's something else I hadn't thought of. I'll defintly have to give this more thought. That's what I love about the BB community, everyone here is more than willing to give their opinion on why you're wrong. 
Seriously, I appreciate all the answers to this topic, it's nice to see what other coaches thing of these kinds of things.
Chris
Darkson - Mar 04, 2003 - 02:02 PM
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Skummy, thanks for explaining my point better than I did 
biggy - Mar 05, 2003 - 01:44 PM
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A shovel pass in NFL is still a 'pass' the ball is thrown albeit a very short distance. A 'hand-off' is just that, when the QB 'hands off' the ball to a full back or running back who then runs the ball. I think this debate is another case of the rules not 'specifically saying you can'y do a thing therefore you must be allowed to do it'. In reality (and yes I know this is fantasy) if you were standing right next to your teammate and wanted to given him or her the ball you would do so by the quickest (and safest) means possible. You would stick your hand out and place the ball in their waiting arms. It's a similar argument to people waiting one square away from the endzone while the rest of the team beats up your players. 'It doesn't specifically say I can't do it so I can'. It's just another cheesy interpretation. If you want your players to gain those SPPs be a 'real' BB coach and pull off a spectacular move to get it. Throw a long bomb for no other reason than to get the SPPs. That's earning your SPP.
KarlLindemann - Mar 05, 2003 - 02:38 PM
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a shovel 'pass' isn't really a 'pass' it is a handoff because the QB would get no completion. . . 
skummy - Mar 05, 2003 - 03:49 PM
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Sure it does! It's a forward pass. http://www.nfl.com/ce/recap/0,3762,NFL_20011203_GB@JAC,00.html
Check the link and you'll see a game recap of a Packers game in which Brett Farve is credited with a TD pass for a 13 yard gainer to Ahman Green.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 05, 2003 - 04:28 PM
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ABigwood wrote:
In reality (and yes I know this is fantasy) if you were standing right next to your teammate and wanted to given him or her the ball you would do so by the quickest (and safest) means possible. You would stick your hand out and place the ball in their waiting arms. It's a similar argument to people waiting one square away from the endzone while the rest of the team beats up your players. 'It doesn't specifically say I can't do it so I can'. It's just another cheesy interpretation.
The BB pitch is 15 SQUARES across and 26 long.
Before you pull in the reality argument and declare it cheesy ... think about what you are saying.
That means if a BB pitch was applied to an NFL field each square would be 10.5 feet wide by 11.5 feet long. Which means applied to reality as you wanted to do the player is likely 10.5 feet away or it would even be possible to be 23 feet (almost 8 yards ... ie he could be almost the distance for a first down away for NFL rules and still be in an ADJACENT square if you had a grid on the field). If you know any quarterbacks with 10.5 feet long arms .... THEN I'll buy the whole stick out your arm and hand it to them argument. Basically what I'm trying to say is that a Shovel Pass done in the NFL WOULD be an adjacent square pass if you did the math for the distance.
Listen guys there is nothing at all wrong with an adjacent square quick pass and anyone who thinks its cheesy just doesn't get it in my opinion. I do adjacent quick passes often if I've already handed off NOT because I want to get any SPPs ... its so if I screw up and fumble or the catcher drops it there is a good chance to have 2 TZs on the ball. If you have an elf coach who is doing it to get easy SPPs ... more power to him ... thats the right way to play Elves and its also a great way to turnover over the ball on double 1s for two different events instead of one.
The reality argument really works against you on this one ... so I'd stay away from it. Its not cheesy, its not unrealistic, and I'd never disallow it any league I ran.
Galak (otherwise referred to on TBB as da Numba Cruncher)
SuM - Sep 06, 2003 - 08:11 PM
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I don't wanna "beat a Dying Dog", just to clarify something...
I don't wanna get yelled at... so instead of me creating another post, i thought it would be better to hike a ride on another post....
You are allowed 1 "Hand Off" per turn, and 1 "Passing Action" per turn???
Both are allowed???
Yes or No...
Darkson - Sep 06, 2003 - 10:35 PM
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Yes, 1 of each.