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General - Tournament scoring

Mestari - Mar 04, 2003 - 12:33 AM
Post subject: Tournament scoring

Thadrin talked about hard-fought draws in the Blood Bowl tournament -topic, which raised this question:

What do people think about the weight that draws should have in a tournament:

Example question:
Should 2 draws be worth
less than 1 win and 1 loss
exactly 1 win and 1 loss
more than 1 win and 1 loss?

Or perhaps some other variation? What was the solution used in the Blood Bowl?

Darkson - Mar 04, 2003 - 12:58 AM
Post subject:

BB tourney was:

4 pts for a win
2 pts for a draw
2 pts for a lose by 1TD
1 pt for a bigger lose
0 pts for conceding

Jervis held an informal (shouted) vote in Bugman's after the final round, and the following has been suggested for next year:

5 pts for a win
3 pts for a draw
2 pts for a lose by 1 TD
1 for big lose
0 for conceding

I hope they do keep the "lose by 1TD" giving more points, as it meant all I had to play to the finish in all my games, to either hold my lead, take the lead, or try to norrow the gap.

Mestari - Mar 04, 2003 - 01:39 AM
Post subject:

I'd perhaps go for this in my tournaments:

10 pts for a win
7 pts for a draw
4 pts for a lose by 1 TD
2 for big lose
0 for conceding

as with the 5-3-2-1-0 system,
win-lossby1=7
win-loss=6
draw-draw=6

And I'd rather have it so that two draws give as many points as the win-lossby1 and more points than win-loss. with 10-7-4-2-0 system it'd be
win-lossby1=14
win-loss=12
draw-draw = 14

Which I like more.

Indigo - Mar 04, 2003 - 03:31 AM
Post subject:

I like the idea of the 5-3-2-1-0 best I think as it will create a greater spread of points, while encouraging people to push hard for draws if they're losing and wins if they are drawing.

I don't think anyone in the tourny conceded. Probably because teams reset, but I think it was the generally high sportsmanship standard that had some effect.

I did think that if a coach concedes, as well as getting 0 points his opponent should get his.

So if it is 2-1 and the loser concedes then the winner gets 5+2=7 points. Might not be worth the effort though.

Grumbledook - Mar 04, 2003 - 04:01 AM
Post subject:

With 10 7 4, you get just as many points more than a loss with a draw than you do with a win over a draw.

Also a draw draw should be the same as a win bigloss i like the 5 3 2 1 0

GalakStarscraper - Mar 04, 2003 - 05:45 AM
Post subject:

Point system that JKL used for the Underground Bowl and that I will be using for the GenCon Bowl.

Points for rounds:

Win = 50
Blow out bonus (won by 2+ points) = +10
Smackdown bonus (won, and caused more casualties) = +10

Loss = 20
Keeping it close bonus (lost by 1 point) = +10
"You should see the other guy" bonus (lost, but caused more casualties) = +10

Tie = 30
Yeah, but be hurt 'em bonus (tied, but caused more casualties) = +10

==========================================

I really liked how this system panned out.

A complete blow out gives 70 points to the winner and 20 points to the losser.

An extremely close match with a win by 1 TD but the loser scores more cas gets 50 points for the winner and 40 points for the losser.

After having played using this point system, I was very pleased by it.

Galak

Khankill - Mar 04, 2003 - 06:19 AM
Post subject:

Having also attended the Underworld Cup, I too liked JKL's system. The painting and sportsmanship method used at that event were also very fair IMHO.

Redfang - Mar 04, 2003 - 06:43 AM
Post subject:

It does indeed sound/read like a good system...

SBG - Mar 04, 2003 - 09:19 AM
Post subject:

If Galak (JKL)'s system could be used , I'd go for it ! I will even suggest to play the next season of my league using that system.

Otherwise, I'd go with this :

W = 3 pts
D = 1 pt
L = 0 pt

I think the World Cup works this way. So the 1W - 1L record is still better than 2D, because you actually manage to win 1 game ! Draws shouldn't be allowed in any competition !

Fred, who happens to hate draws !

Dave - Mar 04, 2003 - 12:37 PM
Post subject:

I like the proposed version for next year (5-3-2-1-0)

Bevan - Mar 04, 2003 - 02:25 PM
Post subject: Tournament scoring

The proposed new 5,3,2,1 system and JKL's system reported by Galak are both quite good, but the ideal system should award the same total number of points for all games and should award more points for a draw than a loss.

The Aussie (CanCon) scoring had 7 points up for grabs in each game.

Win by 2 or more TD 5pts, lose by 2 or more TD 1 pt
Win by 1 TD 4pts, lose by 1 TD 2pts
Draw 3 pts each

Then 1 point for the most Casulaties, half point each if equal.

This means that unless the scores differ by 3TD the game is always tense because any score makes a different to both coaches. In some proposed systems only one coach is concerned about getting one last TD.

The casualty bonus helps the teams that may have difficulty winning by 2 TD and penalises those that can score quickly but suffer lots of injuries. However, the casualty bonus is low enough that winning the games always gives the higher score.

GalakStarscraper - Mar 04, 2003 - 03:47 PM
Post subject:

Bevan ... using JKL's wording the CanCon system you listed would be:

Win = 40
Blow out bonus (won by 2+ points) = +10
Smackdown bonus (won, and caused more casualties) = +10
Tied on casualties = +5

Loss = 10
Keeping it close bonus (lost by 1 point) = +10
"You should see the other guy" bonus (lost, but caused more casualties) = +10
Tied on casualties = +5

Tie = 30
Yeah, but be hurt 'em bonus (tied, but caused more casualties) = +10
Tied on casualties = +5

============================================
So basically its the same systems as JKL's with 3 changes:
1) 1/2 credit for tied casualties
2) 40 point base for a win instead of 50
3) 10 point base for a loss instead of 20

Point 1 ... okay ... no sure its needed.
Point 2 I don't agree with
Point 3 ... I don't have a problem with, but I could see it as a possible change

All I'm trying to say is that the system are virtually identical.

Galak

Doubleskulls - Mar 05, 2003 - 05:47 AM
Post subject:

GalakStarscraper wrote:

Points for rounds:

Win = 50
Blow out bonus (won by 2+ points) = +10
Smackdown bonus (won, and caused more casualties) = +10

Loss = 20
Keeping it close bonus (lost by 1 point) = +10
"You should see the other guy" bonus (lost, but caused more casualties) = +10

Tie = 30
Yeah, but be hurt 'em bonus (tied, but caused more casualties) = +10

Why not just divide them all by 10? 5-3-2 with +1 bonuses.

Anyway I quite like the proposed 5-3-2-1-0 system. The problem that I had in a couple of games was that I turned my opponent over in the 1st half to go 1-0 up. I then received and for both coaches the emphasis was on preventing the other scoring. This made both games quite dull. At least with the new proposal my opponent would have more to play for.

The Warhammer Players Society used a 32 point system.
The winner got
16 pts
+3 per TD difference
+1 per TD scored
+/-1 per casualty difference
+1 for a clean sheet (i.e. concede no TDs).
The winner cannot get more than 32 points.
The loser then gets 32 - winners score.

So a 3-1 win with 1-2 casualtues would be 16 + 6 + 3 - 1 = 24 for the winner and 8 for the loser.

Its a quite nice system but will be tweaked for the WPS Club Challenge.

Slinky78 - Mar 05, 2003 - 06:24 AM
Post subject:

After the blood bowl, not a huge fan of draws being same as losing (by 1). Think that should change. If it's 1-1 with 3 turns left it'll add more edge if you know that fluffing the drive could cost you points if you concede. People will say this encourages drawing, but I don't think it would. Draw all the time you'll still sink down the table as people win, but you also get some recognition for salvaging a draw rather than going down by one.

Bevan - Mar 05, 2003 - 02:09 PM
Post subject:

Slinky78 wrote:

It is really stupid having a draw the same as a 1TD loss. It means that if you let the opponent win rather than hold them to a draw you are no worse off. With a few turns to go, if the scores are even, the coaches might as well roll a dice to see who is going to get the TD. Confused

This is why I favour a system where the total score allocated for every game is the same. It prevents collusion that can give some coaches more bonus points than others and avoids penalties for very hard fought and close games.

GalakStarscraper - Mar 05, 2003 - 04:11 PM
Post subject:

Bevan wrote:

It is really stupid having a draw the same as a 1TD loss.

This I'll agree with. Since CanCon's and JKL's system are so similar I'll do this for GenCon as I'm still typing up the rules packet.

CanCon rules but I'm getting rid of the 5 points for tied casualties and using JKL's sportsmanship and painting points bonus. That should work nicely.

Galak

Grumbledook - Mar 05, 2003 - 06:36 PM
Post subject:

Who the hell is going to just let an opponent win.

Firstly you just lost a game which sucks
Secondly they will then have an extra td which is often used when it comes to tied points as a decider
Thirdly its going to knock your NAF ranking down

If thats your opinion bevan I would gladly love to play you at any tournament.

Mestari - Mar 05, 2003 - 11:57 PM
Post subject:

GalakStarscraper wrote:

I don't like the fact that a loss by 1 TD is equal to a draw and you can actually get more points by losing than by a draw. Otherwise this is good as you can get more points by two draws than with a victory and a loss, although not easily.