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Rules Questions - Push Back Question

ZogSquigfoot - Mar 05, 2003 - 09:35 PM
Post subject: Push Back Question

A question regarding push backs came up the other night during a game. We had quite a scrum going and a player was pushed into it and it triggered a chain of push backs on other players because there were no empty squares. The question was when the first player pushed back is moved into the square of the next player back, does that second player follow the normal rules for push backs or does he simply move straight back in the direction the push was going? Example-

+ + 1 4 +
+ A 2 5 8
+ + 3 6 9
Let's say that Player A blocks Player 2 and a push back results. Player A's coach pushes him into the space occupied by Player 5. Does Player 5 the move into the empty space next to Player 8 or does he follow the direction of the pushes and thus move into Player 8's square and move him back? Imagine adding the sideline right behind player 8, and the implications get bigger. There are not any examples in the LRB covering push backs this deep but the wording on page 11 where it states "If all such squares are occupie by other players , then the players is pushed into an occupied square, and the player that originally occupied the square is pushed back in turn." I take the "in turn" to mean that the push backs follow the normal sequence for pushbacks (must move into an empty square, etc). Looking online I find this in the Oberwald "If the player is pushed back to a square occupied by another player, the direction of each subsequent push is determined by the square the pushing player comes from, not the direction of the original block." Which seems to support my line of thinking. Not sure how much weight to put in the Oberwald though. Thoughts anyone?
(Destro - not trying to be beardy, just trying to clarify Smile

)
Zog

spree - Mar 05, 2003 - 10:13 PM
Post subject:

Pretty simple really, treat each push-back seperately. Player A pushes 2 into 5. Thus Player 5 is pushed by Player 2, the only available space is the empty square you identified earlier, that's where he'd go!

destro - Mar 05, 2003 - 11:43 PM
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I agree with oberwald on this one Zog. I know your not trying to beardy. I was just too sick to post it myself for an answer. that much typing would have increased my migraine. I hate sinus pressure!

Indigo - Mar 06, 2003 - 05:09 AM
Post subject:

it is tricky as it is not made 100% clear by the rules - we play that wherever possible you have to pushback to an empty square. The blocking coach always chooses when you need to push a player back though.

Grotemuis - Mar 06, 2003 - 08:51 AM
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It's been made very clear in the review. Just tread the player who occupies the square the other player is pushed to, as if he was pushed as well. Just like Spree said

cossakking - Mar 27, 2003 - 07:19 PM
Post subject: Push Back and Stand Firm!

What if you were trying to push somebody back and the only three squares they could go where people with stand firm! What happens then?

Does nobody move?

GalakStarscraper - Mar 27, 2003 - 09:02 PM
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destro wrote:

I agree with oberwald on this one Zog

The October 2002 Rules Review is at:
http://www.games-workshop.com/Warhammerworld/bloodbowl/Rules_rev.htm
and its says:

Quote:

Q: Suppose my opponent pushes back one player into a second player. Who decides where the second player ends up?

A: The coach of the moving team decides all pushback directions unless the pushed player has Side Step. If the player has side step, his coach decides where he is pushed to.

That part about controlling direction well that implies that its a normal push.

Now the Oberwald ... I think you guys are quoting an old copy. The latest one that Bevan has up says:

Quote:

If the player is pushed back to a square occupied by another player, the direction of each subsequent push is determined by the square the pushing player comes from, not the direction of the original block.

The square each subsequent player moves to (of the 3 squares allowed) is decided by the coach of the player who made the original block (unless a pushed player has sidestep).

Stand Firm and Side Step are used by players receiving secondary pushes. If all the players in available squares have Stand Firm, the push back does not occur, but still counts as a push-back for other purposes. A square with a non-Stand Firm player must be chosen if available.

Players lying down may be pushed back if only occupied squares are available.

All of this information is 100% correct for the LRB rules. Now by direction it does NOT mean a straight line. What it means is:

Code:

.B...

..AK.

.CDEJ

.FGHI

.KLMN

.....

If B pushes A into E than E is treated as being pushed in that direction which means its does NOT automatically push into I ... it can push into J, H, OR I. ... if I choose to push E into H then H can be pushed into L, M, or N ... not automatically into M.

This is very definitely how the pushback rules work ... each push is treated as if it just happened from a block. I've seen expert level Blood Bowl players use 3rd and 4th step push backs in big groups to send ball carriers out of bounds who are 3 squares away. Its definitely a good strategy to understand and use.

Galak

GalakStarscraper - Mar 27, 2003 - 09:06 PM
Post subject: Re: Push Back Question

ZogSquigfoot wrote:

Let's say that Player A blocks Player 2 and a push back results. Player A's coach pushes him into the space occupied by Player 5. Does Player 5 the move into the empty space next to Player 8 or does he follow the direction of the pushes and thus move into Player 8's square and move him back?

To directly answer your questions. Spree was right ... Player 5 moves into the empty space next to Player 8 because each push back is treated as though it just happened from a block.

Galak

Agentrock - Mar 28, 2003 - 02:15 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:

I've seen expert level Blood Bowl players use 3rd and 4th step push backs in big groups to send ball carriers out of bounds who are 3 squares away. Its definitely a good strategy to understand and use.Galak

So as far as pushing a player out of bounds...you can do so if there are no other open spaces (the 3 legal push-squares) available? Or can you push a player out of bounds regardless?

Mordredd - Mar 28, 2003 - 03:48 PM
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A player may only be pushed back off the pitch if there was no available empty square that he can be moved to following the normal push back rules. So yes to your first question, no to your second.

Darkson - Mar 28, 2003 - 04:12 PM
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To use Galak's example above, assuming the sideline is next to JIN, if A is pushed back into E, you can push either J or I out of bounds , but if you push H then you can't use them to push N OOB as the is an empty space behind them.

GalakStarscraper - Mar 28, 2003 - 07:20 PM
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Darkson wrote:

Good example, Darkson. I edited my picture above to help this explaination visually make more sense.

Galak

Agentrock - Mar 31, 2003 - 12:33 PM
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Quote:

Good example, Darkson...

I agree...seeing it explained with the full picture as Galak has on his posts makes it easier to see (and explain to others). Thanks!