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Rules Questions - Stunned and Stupid
Spazzfist - Sep 24, 2004 - 06:46 AM
Post subject: Stunned and Stupid
Do big guys with bonehead (or extremely stupid) have to take a stupidity check before just rolling over when stunned? I mean, it says they have to check before performing an action, is just rolling over considered an action? I mean it's not like they're literally "rolling over"!
I encountered this for the first time during the Spike! and am wondering how other people deal with this, and if there is a more clear intereprtation of the rules.
sPazz
AnthonyTBBF - Sep 24, 2004 - 08:01 AM
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That's how we've always done it, I don't think there is an official ruling on this (at least that I'm aware of).
Spazzfist - Sep 24, 2004 - 09:39 AM
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I just re-read the rules on bonehead which says that the player has to
"roll a d6 after declaring an action for the player, but before taking the action with the player".
I then looked up "stunned" on the injury chart which reads:
"....all they may do for their next action is turn face up".
I guess this answers my question! 
ooff!
Zombie - Sep 24, 2004 - 11:19 AM
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The official ruling is that you must roll to unstun. The official ruling is pretty dumb and will probably be overruled in November.
angryrob - Nov 09, 2004 - 03:25 PM
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i thought in an older rule set it was stated that even the dummest creatures had enuff smarts to roll over
Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 10, 2004 - 02:15 AM
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Strangely enough, rolling over is considered an action, as Spazzfist rightly said, but standing up is not.
The paragraph on pg 12, Standing up, doesn't say it's an action.
So a Bonehead is too stupid to get on his back, but not to stand up? Gosh, these Big Guys really ARE morons
Xtreme - Nov 10, 2004 - 02:27 AM
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Isn't Standing part of a move, or Blitz action?
Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 10, 2004 - 02:53 AM
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Call me picky, but it only says "a player can stand up at a cost of three squares from his movement", nothing more.
It doesn't say standing up counts as the players movement for that turn anywhere.
Now,if he had Movement left and intended to move, THAT would be the Action called Movement. But ONLY standing up, and not moving afterwards? A smartass or rules lawyer might object these aren't the same (call me smartass on this one, I deserve it 
).
Anyway, no serious Coach would object to rolling over without a Bonehead roll.
The rule is badly written,and the Rules Review will probably make it clear rolling over is ot an Action in the common sense and doesn't necessitate a dice roll (I hope the Vamps will finally become official, and they too would have to roll for Bloodthirts/OFAB when on their backs, so I'm all for skipping the dice roll)
Mordredd - Nov 10, 2004 - 04:31 AM
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Zombie wrote:
The official ruling is pretty dumb and will probably be overruled in November.
The official ruling is not dumb, being based on an accurate reading of the rules I would say it was perfectly intelligent. They are not proposing to overrule it either; they are proposing to change the rule.
Graf_Arnhelm wrote:
It doesn't say standing up counts as the players movement for that turn anywhere.
It doesn't have to as you can only use MA when taking an action that involves moving (you know move, blitz, pass or foul).
Oh, and you're a smartass. 
Spazzfist - Nov 10, 2004 - 06:13 AM
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Graf_Arnhelm wrote:
Call me picky, but it only says "a player can stand up at a cost of three squares from his movement", nothing more.
It doesn't say standing up counts as the players movement for that turn anywhere
You're picky...... and a smartass!
I think that is getting awfully lawyerish of you Graf. Three squares of movement is movement. Moving is an action and actions require rolls. I don't like it either, but I plays by the rules.
Maybe they are so entranced by the clouds and cloud-animals that they forget to stand. 
Spazz
Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 10, 2004 - 07:42 AM
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Guess I'll have to change my name to Graf_Smartass then 
Doubleskulls - Nov 10, 2004 - 02:58 PM
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Graf - not only rules laywery but wrong too.
pp12 "While prone the player loses his tackle zone and may do nothing
except stand up at a cost of three squares of his movement when he next takes an action."
Shadewe - Nov 10, 2004 - 05:11 PM
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So Stand up is part of an action. Thus for a big guy to stand he would have to make the Roll to determine whether or not he is smart enough to stand.
Hoshi_Komi - Nov 10, 2004 - 05:18 PM
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yep!
but the whole rollover thing is changin' in a couple days....the only reason it was silly was because wild animals did it for free but not the others. And the answer was in a FAQ from one of the Rules reviews.
Graf_Arnhelm - Nov 11, 2004 - 01:27 AM
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That's "Stupid_Graf_Smartass" then 
I thought there was something in the FAQ, too, but couldn't find it, that's how I assumed my explanation was right.
Note to self: buy stronger glasses
Spazzfist - Nov 11, 2004 - 06:06 AM
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Graf_Arnhelm wrote:
That's "Stupid_Graf_Smartass" then
Well at least now you know that you won't have to roll to turn yourself over if you fall down!
GalakStarscraper - Nov 11, 2004 - 06:43 AM
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Ken was right and Zombie was half right (it not overrulled ... its changed my friend).
Anyway the 2004 Rules Review changed the wording of Stunned on the injury chart to get rid of this issue.
Galak
Zombie - Nov 11, 2004 - 05:01 PM
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It's changed back. Last i checked, that's called overruled.
Clan_Skaven - Nov 11, 2004 - 05:46 PM
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Ok so now after all the children are done arguing in the sandbox over the propper wording of this rule,just to be clear on this, it's now roll over for free for all Big Guys, then a Dice Roll to stand up,move, blitz?
Ok thanks.
-Rod-
Zombie - Nov 11, 2004 - 07:02 PM
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If the rules review has come out (which would be news to me), then probably yes. Otherwise, then no.
GalakStarscraper - Nov 11, 2004 - 08:27 PM
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Clan-Skaven wrote:
Ok so now after all the children are done arguing in the sandbox over the propper wording of this rule,just to be clear on this, it's now roll over for free for all Big Guys, then a Dice Roll to stand up,move, blitz?
Ok thanks.
-Rod-
Wait until the end of next week and ask again Rod.
Galak
Clan_Skaven - Nov 11, 2004 - 09:15 PM
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Sounds good to me, thanks.
Mordredd - Nov 12, 2004 - 05:07 AM
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Zombie wrote:
It's changed back. Last i checked, that's called overruled.
If they were changing their position on how the rule book should be read then yes, maybe just, but they're not. They've decided the rule needed to be changed, so "the rule has been revised" is perhaps more accurate than "the FAQ has been overruled".
Besides "overruled" at the very least implies someone of higher rank changing the earlier decision. For (a soccer) example the main referee might overrule the sideline official, or a tennis umpire would overrule one of the line judges. If either were overturning a previous ruling of their own then it would be, well, "overturned" surely.
Now I don't think that the BBRC outrank themselves, and I don't think that this change was handed down by JJ, so I don't see how you can legitimately say it can be "overruled".
Clan_Skaven - Nov 12, 2004 - 05:44 AM
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Mordredd wrote:
Zombie wrote:
It's changed back. Last i checked, that's called overruled.
If they were changing their position on how the rule book should be read then yes, maybe just, but they're not. They've decided the rule needed to be changed, so "the rule has been revised" is perhaps more accurate than "the FAQ has been overruled".
Besides "overruled" at the very least implies someone of higher rank changing the earlier decision. For (a soccer) example the main referee might overrule the sideline official, or a tennis umpire would overrule one of the line judges. If either were overturning a previous ruling of their own then it would be, well, "overturned" surely.
Now I don't think that the BBRC outrank themselves, and I don't think that this change was handed down by JJ, so I don't see how you can legitimately say it can be "overruled".
More sandbox fighting! I think what is being missed here is who cares if the rule was overruled, revised, rewrote, mutated, abducted by aliens then left in a farmer's field, or whatever! It does not matter what you wanna call the change. All that really matters is what the change is. (& Galak said I'll know by the end of next week)
-Rod-
Mordredd - Nov 12, 2004 - 06:06 AM
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Clan-Skaven wrote:
More sandbox fighting!
Wrestling in kitty litter? Ewwww!
Sorry, but aren't you just joining in the 'pointless bickering' yourself now?
Spazzfist - Nov 12, 2004 - 06:10 AM
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So how about that stunned rule, eh? I heard that if we wait patiently that our question will be answered......
(Put the pepper spray down Rod, it's just not worth it....)
GalakStarscraper - Nov 12, 2004 - 08:00 AM
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Spazzfist wrote:
our question will be answered......
hmmm ... more like made irrelevant than answered ...
Galak
Spazzfist - Nov 12, 2004 - 08:06 AM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Spazzfist wrote:
our question will be answered......
hmmm ... more like made irrelevant than answered ...
Galak
AAAARGH! Don't you start! 
(On second, thought Rod, get the pepper spray!)
DarkDancer17 - Nov 15, 2004 - 05:19 PM
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Question then, as this came up in a game I played just recently...
If a Beast of Nurgle gets tacked with the Handicap that gives him Frenzy and Jump Up...
Does he have to roll to simply stand? As there is no cost for Standing?
Darkson - Nov 15, 2004 - 05:26 PM
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Yes, as standing up can only be done as part of a Move action (even as in this case you are using MA 0).
GalakStarscraper - Nov 15, 2004 - 06:05 PM
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Darkson wrote:
Yes, as standing up can only be done as part of a Move action (even as in this case you are using MA 0).
Hmmmm ... Darkson ... I'd say Jump Up overrules the less than MA 3. It says stand up for free. I'd include the roll to stand as part of the price. That's the intention as well. So if folks want to disagree I'll add it to the list of things to rephrase for LRB 5.0 to make more clear.
Galak
Zombie - Nov 15, 2004 - 07:10 PM
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You can stand up for free once at the start of your action, but you still have to roll for the negative skill before you start your action. Darkson is right. The roll is not part of the action. Standing up is, even if it's free.
Besides, we all know that free only refers to how much movement you have to spend to get up.
How is the roll part of the price paid to stand up? What's the cost? None. What's the risk? None. Since you're down you don't even have a tackle zone to lose.
Of course, all of this is moot since no player can have a negative skill and jump up.
DarkDancer17 - Nov 15, 2004 - 07:15 PM
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Except, of course, when they are given it by a Handicap, Zombie.
Doubleskulls - Nov 15, 2004 - 07:56 PM
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Er - Galak aren't we talking about the negative skill roll?
Darkson - Nov 16, 2004 - 11:00 AM
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Get the feeling Galak might have been thinking about a tree standing up?
GalakStarscraper - Nov 16, 2004 - 06:26 PM
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A Treeman with Buzzing would not need to roll to stand up.
But yeah .. you'd need to roll for Take Root in the LRB 4.0 before trying to stand.
Galak
Zombie - Nov 16, 2004 - 06:32 PM
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And you need to roll for Bonehead, Really Stupid or Wild Animal.
GalakStarscraper - Nov 16, 2004 - 08:11 PM
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Zombie wrote:
And you need to roll for Bonehead, Really Stupid or Wild Animal.
Definitely agreed on these as well.
Galak
GalakStarscraper - Nov 17, 2004 - 06:16 AM
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Okay the new rules for Stunned should be up today.
Quote:
2004-11-17
Hi Keith,
Can you put this pdf up on the BB website this afternoon. It should be
called 'The 2004 Blood Bowl Rules Review'. It needs to go in the
official
new rules section, and we need a link to it from the news section on
the
front page. I'll add a blog entry this afternoon.
Jervis
<<The2004R.pdf>>