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Rules Questions - The NEW Broken Kick-off table
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 12:57 AM
Post subject: The NEW Broken Kick-off table
This is what happens when I'm busy with Life and not able to pay attention to what the BBRC is trying to slip past us... 
Now, let me gets this out of the way, there is an awful lot I like in the current review that shows some thought...fixing the broken Chaos Dwarves FINALLY should make things far more interesting in Tournament play for example.
And the rest follows fine...like fixing what was a broken handicap table, seeing that some results gave "flavour" unless tweaked by house-rules they really could end up doing nothing for the unbalanced match. (It's why the TBBF for example came up with an "improved" Handicap table)
It's when I get to the "new and improved" Kick-off table my jaw simply drops and I suddenly realized that they've finally given reason NEVER to play some teams in tournaments ever again. 
And yes the Goblins are one example...
They've made four "corrections" to the table. Now the first one "Riot" into "Injury Time" actually isn't a bad one. It could either lose one turn or gain a turn for both opponents. Though it does cut into the sudden blow-out of losing six turns and only having a two turn half...in the end having the new rule either just lose or even GAIN one turn for both players is full of possibilities....this one I'm more than willing to give a try.
It's the other three changes that are completely whacked in the head if looked at from a tournament perspective. (Something the BBRC seems to keep not quite wrapping their heads around, or at least not enough of them at any rate.)
"Get the Ref" now just removes the referee....well thank you but you just handed the game to whomever has "General" skill as a selection, oh and made fan factor useless for this. So far from adding balance, you just removed it from the tournament system.
"Blitz" Huh? What was broken about it before? Now only players not in a Tackle Zone can do anything? Once again advantage will go to certain teams and is removed from others who either lack certain player types or skills. Again, where does this add balance in tournaments?
"Pitch Invasion" This one is insult to injury! What is this the NFL or BLOODBOWL!?! 
Again balance is REMOVED from tournaments and given to teams that don't need it. Again, fan factor is made useless, as what good is a "stun" really at times when what a team really needs is something to maybe break things open or get them back in it. But making it BOTH teams is just insane if one is arguing balance. In tournaments sometimes the only chance a low armour team might have of maybe FINALLY getting a few of those "thicker than hell" armour teams off the pitch is for this to kick in. Now both teams get to roll for stuns, knowing full well it highly favours the High Armour teams, as what does he have to worry about? (Yes I hear that "fouling" arguement, well the lower armour is a LOT more vulnerable to that isn't he? And what's to stop Mr. Thick-Armour from rolling all those sixes? Sorta kills the arguement on the "luck factor" there, at least the High FF team EARNED his invasion and the result in comparison.)
Another step in making Fan-Factor utterly useless. Did it ever occur to the BBRC what effect these "balances" would really have in the tournaments? (This goes to an earlier arguement that we seem to be heading towards TWO seperate rules lists, one for leagues, the other for tournaments, but I digress.)
There HAS been progress made in getting the teams into a more level curve when in tournaments, that first tweak to the CD's noted earlier showing that there really is honest interest in this. Why then did they not see what impact "NFL'ing" the Kick-off table would have to those teams that NEED to buy FF as one of the few ways to try and level the playing field against their more "skilled" opponents? The "Bloodbowl" Kick-off table meant there were four catagories in which FF could swing something and swing it well. (Or help protect them from the more skilled team in Get the Ref.) Now FF is only good for two things and useless in the other two...both of which have been "corrected" to instead of redressing an inbalance, rather they now ENHANCE the imbalance and make it all the worse!
If this is what's in store for 2005....we'd better hurry up and do TWO rules lists, otherwise the "corrected" League ones are going to unbalance the tournament ones in the favour of all the teams that didn't need any more advantages. And wasn't that the point of the BBRC in the first place, to stop that from happening? 
Bevan - Dec 01, 2004 - 03:49 AM
Post subject: Balance
I'm not sure what the problem is here, since you want more "balance".
Pitch Invasion used to have the possibility that one team would have up to 6 players injured and the other would be unharmed. Was that balanced?
You imply that the new rule is harder on low AV teams, but AV is not rolled. All players affected are "stunned".
You also complained about the lack of FF affect, but the team with higher FF has more chance of stunning opponents.
The original Blitz was badly unbalanced, often making it relatively easy for the kicking team to get the ball with little effort. With a minor change the number of moving players has been limited, although not necessarily reduced.
Your post suggests that the only chance for weak teams (e.g. Goblins) was the chance of getting a totally one-sided kickoff result that handed them the game for no effort. I would never play a team that relied on bizarre events demolishing the other team rather than good play (but I have a Halfing team for a season in my local league)
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 05:50 AM
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Scum,
I must admit that my reaction was similar to yours when I read the new kick off table, and asked Galak (with no response) whether there was really that muich concern from the players that they needed to make such radical changes to the kick off table.
However, having said that, I am willing to give the new rules a try before passing final judgement. I think that there may be potential, and as Bevan points out, they might not be as unbalanced as you think.
Spazz
Hoshi_Komi - Dec 01, 2004 - 06:59 AM
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get the ref is the bad one like Scum said.
get ready for dirty player wars and constant fouling when this is rolled.
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 07:06 AM
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I dunno.... at least this way one team does not have a distinct fouling advantage, while the other is closely watched.
Sputnik - Dec 01, 2004 - 07:21 AM
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while not having much experience with the new table yet, I cannot completely follow your arguments. 
Quote:
"Get the Ref" now just removes the referee....well thank you but you just handed the game to whomever has "General" skill as a selection, oh and made fan factor useless for this. So far from adding balance, you just removed it from the tournament system.
In tournaments, the old GTR could have had a very drastic effect if one side won it early. And if this team additionally had a dirty player, this might as well have decided the game. Not really balanced. 
With the new GTR, everyone can foul back for free, and a dirty player on either side may be useful. Which team did you have in mind that doesn't have access to gen skills? The new ogres? In most tournaments, adding one skill after each round leaves you with many choices. If you think dirty player is most powerful, go for it. But I doubt that people will take dirty player "only" beacuse of the new GTR. In leagues however, you only need a double to get your stunty guy the dirty player skill. If you think that this is more helpful than other skills, it should be your first choice now. :wink:However, this doesn't appear to be more unbalanced as the old version, and for tournaments it's not removed. I can rather imagine foul festivals. 
Quote:
"Blitz" Huh? What was broken about it before? Now only players not in a Tackle Zone can do anything? Once again advantage will go to certain teams and is removed from others who either lack certain player types or skills. Again, where does this add balance in tournaments?
Which teams did you have in mind? And I think it helps if you have three on the line, face 4 BOs and a troll against you, and now they can't smack you for free!
Quote:
"Pitch Invasion" This one is insult to injury! What is this the NFL or BLOODBOWL!?! Again balance is REMOVED from tournaments and given to teams that don't need it. Again, fan factor is made useless, as what good is a "stun" really at times when what a team really needs is something to maybe break things open or get them back in it. But making it BOTH teams is just insane if one is arguing balance. In tournaments sometimes the only chance a low armour team might have of maybe FINALLY getting a few of those "thicker than hell" armour teams off the pitch is for this to kick in
Having a higher ff helps you stunning the opponent on a 5+. Now, if you play a low AV team and you are outnumbered, I think having the possibility to roll for a stun on a 5+ for ALL 11 players of the opposing team with high AV really helps you putting some pressure on the opponent and maybe avoiding an additional block, especially if his players are slow and have to get up first. Yes, you may be unlucky and stun noone, but you may as well have 1 stun under the old version. On the other hand, if you lose a PI with your outnumbered team, you now don't get completely wiped out by a kickoff result without the opponent needing a block.
Again, I don't have much experience with the new table yet. But could you please explain a bit more the difficulties you have?
Sputnik
Hoshi_Komi - Dec 01, 2004 - 08:06 AM
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yeah but before if the team that got the ref and didn't have a dirty player he could choose not to enter the foul war.....
now it's a foul war regardless
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 11:10 AM
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Okay time for rebuttal...
Some are saying "Pitch Invasion" as it was isn't balanced... ha!
At least there one team won it (or possibly both if they somehow tied), there was no guarantee you got more than one player and what their condition was. It would take gross luck for something disasterous to happen and with the application of some maybe real hurt...heck KO is a great result, as maybe it gets that opponent off the pitch!
Under the new one since BOTH get it this can be a real disaster....oh sure FF benifits one team in that they get plus one to stun...I say this, BIG DEAL. (And sure it's stunned, but who cares when a stun hits? He's
down but bigger AV means you try to foul the guy! Sorry Beven but you missed the whole point there.) Your opponent is still on the field ready to hurt you in a turn or two, meanwhile with a bit of that "luck" he's suddenly returned the favour or made it even worse for you! At NO cost to him in FF. So despite the higher FF you went and lost the Pitch Invasion, that's balanced? So it might have taken a huge swing of luck for that fluke 6 injured result, but now the other opponents can pull a 11 stunned result to exploit in a swing of luck AT NO COST!
This application of FF was one of it's great uses of the "17th player" concept, as teams with possible high FF in tournaments were the "squishies" most of the time and this gave them a chance to do what they couldn't do, finally hurt the other team. It's a slim chance (1 in 36) but it was nice to know it was there...now it's yet another thing to dread that favours a heavy hitting high armour team.
Besides, any true fan of the game wants his kids to come home with a confirmed KILL! What's this stunned crud? We have a kidder gentler generation of fans now? Higher FF gives me a bigger chance to stun, again, big deal.
On "blitz" some say it was far to easy for other teams to grab the ball...funny under the new way I'd like to see a dwarf team pull that one off as often as it's implied! 
Instead now it's going to be those fast and zippy teams who'll have the only realistic crack at getting that ball.
Nice to see the new "Get the Ref" is getting through to people it's implications...welcome back to 3rd Edition! 
Some think the
old one was out of whack and could heavily favour one team, let's see
1 in 18 odds and it was only from that point and for that half. If your team can exploit this great but more often it just gave a threat for only a short time, and if you happen to be a stunty team well no DP unless you're tournament director happens to allow doubles. (which they have to think about applying where, while the "general" team has no such problems) The NEW one now make both teams get it no matter who invested in the FF, and there starts a fouling war which could heavily favour the team without the FF. Did it occur that the high FF team might have wanted to win it to prevent the fouling they DON'T have the DP's for?
Now before leaping to conclusions a few of us here HAVE been testing out the new table in a tournament environment, that's how we started noticing the real problems with it. (That's how we noticed that the "fixed" blitz and the new "Get the Ref" had problems, and it just confirmed first impression on the "Pitch Invasion"....however did like the "Injury time".) Now for League play maybe this "NFL'ed" list is better, it's in the tournaments where it has a greater impact.
Sure I play one of the Stunty teams, but asking around I never relied on the FF to win the game...it was the 17th player concept where it was part of a balanced strategy to stay on par with the other teams, i.e., gave them an area that WE were good in, oh sure it was only a 1 in 4 chance something would pop up, but at least I'd spent and earned that chance. Usually it's "Cheering fans"...I'll take it! But better the money spent here than on a RR, as not only is there the chance to get that RR and deny it to the opponent, but I have that slim chance at one of the other three.
Now it won't matter, as the opponent without cost gets equal crack...oh maybe he'll take a few more "stuns", but big whoop. He's still able to get up and kill you now isn't he? And now he gets the ref too for no cost? Oh this is going to hurt... We've even tried one member's PM suggestion of a team that could exploit this new version, 2 out of 3 tries it's been INCREDIBLY effective, and all for 1 FF. Mind you I want to play that a few more times to see if that's too high, or even to low, a ratio. But wow those two results were an eye-opener to how far a foul war could now get!
I think some need to relook at "balance" in the wider view, rather than in a very narrow "just that roll" kind of view to see where issues are going to creep in. Otherwise there's going to be some redressing on how some teams are built and run in tournaments. Who knows, maybe that was the whole idea of this in the first place? 
Mordredd - Dec 01, 2004 - 11:39 AM
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Well you're not the first to have problems with the revised get the ref. I'm not a big fan myself, at least not without the Vaults fouling rules (including dirty player = +1 or +1).
However I think you are missing a trick on the pitch invasion. Fouling is not the only tactic it opens up. For the low AV teams (which apart from the stunties are fast too) you have the opportunity to grab the ball and score quickly whilst a good number of the (high AV) team are face down eating dirt. Exploit the gaps like a good agility coach and you're laughing. This is especially effective if the players the opposition has left back to pick up the ball are stunned and a gap or two has been left in the line. Ok stunned only is a bit lame, but from what I've seen so far in my Vault league it doesn't particularly favour any one type of team.
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 11:54 AM
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Okay, sure things have been "nerfed" a bit, but I recall playing in a league where the Ogre team managed to secure a very high FF. Any time there was any roll for FF (get the ref, pitch invasion, etc.) he was almost guaranteed to win it. After that it was just gross.....
From what I understand that you are saying Scum (and sorry man, but you were kind of ranting in some parts) I am more in favour of the new kick off rules than ever. You claim to not be relying on getting the pitch invasion, but you do seem to spend a lot of your post talking about it. Personally, I would like to see more focus on the game - it sucks to lose because the crowd decided to kill 6 of your players.
Like Mordredd suggests, I think that you need to look at some of the other opportunities the new table provides, not just the old ones it shuts down.
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 12:39 PM
Post subject:
Spazzfist wrote:
Okay, sure things have been "nerfed" a bit, but I recall playing in a league where the Ogre team managed to secure a very high FF. Any time there was any roll for FF (get the ref, pitch invasion, etc.) he was almost guaranteed to win it. After that it was just gross.....
Oh tell me about it! Pitzburk Squeakers in the TBBF exploited that one to the max in league play as he'd built up an enourmous FF. But hey he'd earned it.
But again I was pointing to tournaments, not league where I did note it could work just fine in there.
Quote:
From what I understand that you are saying Scum (and sorry man, but you were kind of ranting in some parts) I am more in favour of the new kick off rules than ever. You claim to not be relying on getting the pitch invasion, but you do seem to spend a lot of your post talking about it. Personally, I would like to see more focus on the game - it sucks to lose because the crowd decided to kill 6 of your players.
I'm supposed to rant, it's in the Goblin coaches' contract under free squigs...
I'm having to focus on it as there seems to be difficulty in "grasping" what the change went and did, where that doesn't seem to be the issue with the other ones. People keep focusing on the extreme result, rather than sitting back and actually analyzing statistical probability here. The odds of that 6 deaths from crowd are so unbelievable that it makes my triple skulling three times in a row seem like an everyday occurance!
However the NEW system now not only limits any damage, it also throws in the curve ball that with a lucky streak the opponent with NO INVESTMENT does far worse to you! Using your arguement on "focus on the game" an element like that should be equally as bad, if not worse. QED What was wrong with changing it to 1d3 as many tournaments did to no complaints if that "extreme" result is such a worry?
And besides for humour's sake this is bloodbowl! I want the fans to have claws fangs and big sharp nasty teeth....not nerf weapons!
Quote:
Like Mordredd suggests, I think that you need to look at some of the other opportunities the new table provides, not just the old ones it shuts down.
As noted earlier we have started doing just that, that's how we came up with where the unbalances were in a tournament system. It's how we've come up with new ways to exploit it to the maximum, which will then start getting howls of "broken". It's as said before people need to see the "NFL'ed" table in the context of the whole ball of wax and not just exclusively as just that die roll. I agree with Mordredd, oh there's great way to exploit this new table, you're just not going to like how I can exploit this. 3rd Edition lives on again!
absent - Dec 01, 2004 - 01:45 PM
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bleh, just goes to show you that you can't make everyone happy, but blitz, PI, and riot used to ruin games, kudos to the RR this year on fixing them.
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 02:27 PM
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absent wrote:
bleh, just goes to show you that you can't make everyone happy, but blitz, PI, and riot used to ruin games, kudos to the RR this year on fixing them.
Hey I agree on riot, the change to "Injury Time" I think is absolutely brilliant. It's one of many kudos I give to the RR this year.
But "Blitz" wasn't broken, and in it's new form is going to make things a lot more interesting. Though I grant it's going to take a few more race on race games during the week in tournament format to see if it's really broken anew or if it's going to take readjusting.
And Pitch Invasion took such an extreme result to be broken when compared to the new one I'd gladly take my chances on the old one any day of the week! But hey Mordredd said to exploit the changes which is exactly what I aim on doing from now on. Up 3rd edition!
And I noticed the new GTR is getting a lot more shaking of heads.
Darkson - Dec 01, 2004 - 02:31 PM
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Bleh. Hate the new KO table. We'll be using a modified version of the 3.0 one.
Grumbledook - Dec 01, 2004 - 02:48 PM
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The worst thing about it is if OMM rolls injury time at the kick off of each half
Now he will finish half way into the next tournament ;]
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 02:52 PM
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Grumbledook wrote:
The worst thing about it is if OMM rolls injury time at the kick off of each half
Now he will finish half way into the next tournament ;]
ROFL!
Oh trust OMM to fnd a way to break THAT rule! 
>scribble scribble< It's one hell of a long shot...like 
three times in a row! (Which I've done at an Orion's Cup!) But wow the possibilities! Skaven coaches could dare to dream of breaking the 6 TD mark in a single half or even more!
Doubleskulls - Dec 01, 2004 - 03:12 PM
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I actually think all the changes apart from GtR are good ones. I particularly like the change to PI which could ruin both coaches enjoyment of the game.
None of the changes are balancing or ambiguity issues (i.e. there is little or no advantage to any particular teams and little or no confusion over the application of the events). All they are doing is making the KO table less influential. I'm not sure I agree to the extent to which the changes neuter the KO table but I do agree reducing the influence of the table is a worthwhile project.
The concepts development is the vault, IMO, are a much better rule set than LRB 3.0. I don't think just because a rule that has been developed for PBBL is a good one that the BBRC should try to apply it to the LRB.
We only have another couple of years to wait for PBBL to become official - just save the changes for then.
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 05:41 PM
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Doubleskulls wrote:
I actually think all the changes apart from GtR are good ones. I particularly like the change to PI which could ruin both coaches enjoyment of the game.
Simpler change would have been 1-3, which tournaments were doing. This being Bloodbowl and not the NFL our fans should have some bite...hmm, maybe we should get them from the NBA instead?
Quote:
None of the changes are balancing or ambiguity issues (i.e. there is little or no advantage to any particular teams and little or no confusion over the application of the events). All they are doing is making the KO table less influential. I'm not sure I agree to the extent to which the changes neuter the KO table but I do agree reducing the influence of the table is a worthwhile project.
Neuter? If anything the new GTR just made it deadlier! Now throw in the new PI and it compounds... An original PI would get 1-6, which was easily changed to 1-3 for balance which many thought was a better number. The NEW PI nails on average 5 players! With the potential to be far worse! Sure it's only stuns, well so could the original PI, but it's a lot more of them and those DP's are about to have a feast tonight!
So if the idea was to make the KO table less influential...oops....quite the reverse is true in the tournament format now.
Quote:
The concepts development is the vault, IMO, are a much better rule set than LRB 3.0. I don't think just because a rule that has been developed for PBBL is a good one that the BBRC should try to apply it to the LRB.
We only have another couple of years to wait for PBBL to become official - just save the changes for then.
Don't start me on how they want to "nerf" Flings in the Vault...let alone the actual earning of skills. However I'll grant that they are working and evolving it into a more functional set of rules...gads don't we all remember 1st to 3rd editions? It's just been noted to me that there is sometimes thought that we're going to end up with TWO seperate sets of rules, one for leagues the other for tournaments, at times. That's something I don't want to see happen.
It just keeps feeling like not enough ot the BBRC looked at the changes in a wider view of the tournament structure and it's full applications, instead all that was looked at was the KO table itself and the roll solely.
Zombie - Dec 01, 2004 - 05:57 PM
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1. The BBRC should make rules with leagues in mind, not tournaments. Blood Bowl is a league game. If tournament organisers want to take out the best part of the game, it's their problem. They should then expect the game to not be balanced anymore. Don't bend over just to please them. As long as Blood Bowl is balanced for leagues, that's all that matters.
2. You're just complaining because your tactics of buying 9 FF in tournaments, which was already a bad idea, is getting worse. Well, just stop doing that! At the Spike, you could have had one more rookie troll had you gone with less FF. If anything, this change will only force you to field a more competitive goblin team by forgetting about FF.
3. The new kick off table does indeed suck, but for none of the reasons that you stated!
absent - Dec 01, 2004 - 06:04 PM
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grumble grumble grumble..... (no offense meant 
)
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 06:11 PM
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Zombie wrote:
3. The new kick off table does indeed suck, but for none of the reasons that you stated!
Then why don't you enlighten us? God knows you've attacked people before for not supporting their arguments to your satisfaction.
Zombie - Dec 01, 2004 - 06:36 PM
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Just go read the posts i made at the Vault site before i left that place in disgust. I don't feel like repeating myself, especially not for you. You made me waste my time a few days ago, well not this time.
Spazzfist - Dec 01, 2004 - 06:42 PM
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You crack me up!
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 07:01 PM
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absent wrote:
grumble grumble grumble.....
(no offense meant
)
ROFL none take, Goblins coaches are supposed to rant! Says so right in the contract next to the endless Guinness supply clause...
Doubleskulls - Dec 01, 2004 - 07:53 PM
Post subject:
Da_Scum wrote:
An original PI would get 1-6, which was easily changed to 1-3 for balance which many thought was a better number. The NEW PI nails on average 5 players!
So if the idea was to make the KO table less influential...oops....quite the reverse is true in the tournament format now.
The new PI just effects the current drive, the old one could decide the game. That's what I mean by neutering. The same is true to one extent or another for all the effects.
The same applies to GtR - as there is no longer a "winner" then it is less likely to determine the outcome of the game.
Hoshi_Komi - Dec 01, 2004 - 08:07 PM
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I don't agree with Tournament takes tho, The rules should be for league play. Tournament Organizer can always tweak the rules for tournies.
Doubleskulls - Dec 01, 2004 - 10:02 PM
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I don't think anyone agrees with Da Scum's tournament rules position.
Da_Scum - Dec 01, 2004 - 11:04 PM
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Doubleskulls wrote:
I don't think anyone agrees with Da Scum's tournament rules position.
Funny the PM says otherwise However even *I* don't agree with a seperate tournament rules batch which is what keeps getting brought up.
You said the old PI could affect the entire game? Granted, but in the hands of a good coach and a well built team SO DOES THE NEW ONE! All that coach has to do is grab the fluke opportunity provided by his opponent suddenly having even more players down and out than before and go to town on them! Which comparing numbers is the more likely to happen.
As for GtR, of course there's a winner, BOTH teams. All the coaches have to do is plan accordingly and we're off to 3rd Edition again. This is not lessening an influence, this is called opening the flood gates. Now a player using Secret weapons will just be delighted in this new idea, as they longer have to commit anything to FF for it to work.
I love using Secret Weapons and I'm arguing AGAINST this? I must be mad...
Mordredd - Dec 02, 2004 - 06:32 AM
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With regard to the new blitz I'm not so sure that it doesn't favour one type of team over another. My 'pro' Elves have certainly benefited more from it than my Orcs or Khemri. (Although nerves of steel has really helped there.)
slup - Dec 02, 2004 - 07:45 AM
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Please elaborate how nerves of steel is going to help you during a blitz.
Mordredd - Dec 02, 2004 - 09:12 AM
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I can walk a catcher (with dump off too) into multiple tackle zones and still catch the ball on a 3+ with re roll. Put another catcher with dump off (I have 4) next to him and it is near impossible for the offence to recover the ball. I have done it several times, and once did it twice in a single game. I'm sure it's very annoying.
Da_Scum - Dec 02, 2004 - 09:46 AM
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Mordredd wrote:
I can walk a catcher (with dump off too) into multiple tackle zones and still catch the ball on a 3+ with re roll. Put another catcher with dump off (I have 4) next to him and it is near impossible for the offence to recover the ball. I have done it several times, and once did it twice in a single game. I'm sure it's very annoying.
I've tried it with both Skaven and Woodies and those teams love the new "Blitz" result. Far more than my Orc and Dwarves who now tend to not do much on the result unlike before. 
Glad to hear more people are actually testing these things now and finding out some of the new "possibilities" or "breaks" that led me to comment on the "NFL'ed" kick-off table in the first place.
Francesco - Dec 02, 2004 - 11:12 AM
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I like the new KOT....
except of GTR it's more balanced now, I play a lot in League and now your team risk less being smashed by a damned PI or Blitz against the wrong team!
GTR gives less advantages in my opinion, you could foul for free but I had my players ejected at 6+ all the time, so i can stand with it. Now FF is useless.
juck101 - Dec 05, 2004 - 11:11 AM
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must say i have played most of this in a vault environment and its very good stuff.
Blitz was MENTAL. full stop you are a bad player if you dont score via rolling a ten in LRB. at least now far more chance of recovery. Not sure i agree with mordredd about elf loving new blitz more now they could do that before anyway - but i do get your point. At least its not a game win/lose result now.
Pitch invasion is cool too. Rare 5-6 players out stuff will again trash a game at any stage - so the stun is far more playable. Still seen it wreck most teams with just stuns. Any backfield bull centaur/wardancer that is stunned is going to expect a foul. That can still be pretty drastic.
+/- turn is great in tourni play. now an amazon side COULD use a odd down, and chanegs clock stalling a little. Not a bad idea that rarely has any effect. last tourni i lost 5 downs via two riots in the same game - was a d3 house rule. Losing half the game is no fun if you are playing at top level for fun is it?
Get ref - kinda fair both ways. The elf side vs khemri at least can foul back now! still rough but means is equal - again a result that could trash the game. Now orc/orc derby for example will be on the coach skill - not as drastic as one getting the ref.
-----------
No disagree the new table is much better than before. But also agree with Ian that some of this change only works with vault as a holistic rule.
Mordredd - Dec 06, 2004 - 06:49 AM
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juck101 wrote:
Blitz was MENTAL. full stop you are a bad player if you dont score via rolling a ten in LRB. at least now far more chance of recovery. Not sure i agree with mordredd about elf loving new blitz more now they could do that before anyway - but i do get your point. At least its not a game win/lose result now.
This isn't exactly the point I was making. What I said was that my Elf team gets a lot more out of the new blitz result than my Orcs/Khemri/Undead.
In other words the new blitz has neutered the bashy teams' way of getting the ball without touching the agility teams' way.
Also I have to disagree about being a bad player if you get a blitz and don't score. IMO this is only true IF the offence set up in a way that is very vulnerable to a blitz. For example putting all their players on one flank or leaving big holes in their line in some other way.
Basically if a blitz is an automatic score then an offence should automatically score every time they don't get blitzed. The only real difference between receiving and (old) blitzing is where the ball lands.
juck101 - Dec 06, 2004 - 10:56 AM
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yep i know what you mean with elf blitz- still consider one orc blitzing and a few rushing to the ball an issue.
Cant argue as you a better player than me - but rare to see someone cope in LRB even if they have an even player spread when facing a blitz.
Anyhow having played 'new' blitz for around two years im much happier with it.
Bikerbob - Dec 16, 2004 - 01:31 PM
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Well my impressions of it are more along the lines of Da Scum.
I have not played it a lot yet. But my reasons are more for the flavor of the game, and the idea of "BLOOD BOWL"
I liked that the kick off table COULD result in some nasty results, that was part of the game. THere are NFL football games out there, Avalon Hill made a great one, but if I wanted to play that I would be.
Having an odd or crazy kickoff result I think is better than lope sided teams. I also agree that for some of the weaker teams getting that one weird and wacky bonus from the Kickoff table was what you hoped for... and finally gave a point to the FF, which I have to agree I have been burned by many times giving away rr and loosing the ref etc... made me think about it.. why it was important to earn it... and sometimes, why it was worth paying for at team creation to allow my weaker team to progress instead of getting its ass kicked ALL the time... instead I had that hope.. that I might get an extra TD... caus out of a game and earn those soooo needed spp's.
James
Da_Scum - Feb 26, 2005 - 07:32 PM
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Well the recent goings on at the Canadian Open 2005 are starting to show the problems in the newer "NFL'ed" kick-off table. If the idea was to lower the influence of the Kick-Off table on the game it's grossly backfiring as was seen during the first day. Now sure pitch invasion isn't as deadly for a 1 in 36, but the new Get the Ref is proving a real game buster more than ever at a 1 in 18 chance. And it's been the teams with lower FF exploiting it so ruthlessly it causing a lot more "cleared pitches" than we've even seen before.
New Blitz is clearly favouring dodgy/fast teams over the slow lumbering ones, though I could see the point how the original one did favour the defence heavily. While the new one isn't as weighted, it is showing a bias towards some teams over others. The previous one didn't care really which team race got it.
Going to real interesting to see if Day Two continues the pattern.
GalakStarscraper - Feb 27, 2005 - 06:13 AM
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Now this I agree with ... even in the Vault GTR is on a 2. But the rest of the BBRC didn't agree with moving the result to match the Vault.
Galak
Schmee - Feb 27, 2005 - 07:15 AM
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The kick off table was until the recent modifications the only game mechanic that i thought unbalanced the game. Blitz, Pitch Invasion, Riot - all could easily win or lose a game on their own based on the throw of dice.
The new KOT has softened some of the more nasty rolls and made the game a little more skill-based rather than luck-based. The way it should be IMO.
In fact I personally would like to see more done to dumb down the KOT specifically with Blitz. I'm sure there was something in the vault about changing it to a single player being able to make one action. I'd like to see something like this or if the current version stays make it an 11 or 12 on the table, not a 10. A 10 on 2d6 is 1/12 chance whereas a 12 is 1/36 chance.
Darkson - Feb 27, 2005 - 07:44 AM
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Have to agree, the new GTR is crap, and is something I'd definetly like to see changed out of the Rules review. I don't think making it on a 2 is enough though. The old GTR wasn't right either.
I'd like to see GTR become a FF roll as before, with the ref then becoming "only on a 6". We're using that in our home league, and the2 times it's been rolled, hasn't made a huge difference in the amount of fouling taking place (but that might be because the teams are still quite new, and no DP's yet).
Da_Scum - Feb 28, 2005 - 10:00 AM
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Darkson wrote:
Have to agree, the new GTR is crap, and is something I'd definetly like to see changed out of the Rules review. I don't think making it on a 2 is enough though. The old GTR wasn't right either.
I'd like to see GTR become a FF roll as before, with the ref then becoming "only on a 6". We're using that in our home league, and the2 times it's been rolled, hasn't made a huge difference in the amount of fouling taking place (but that might be because the teams are still quite new, and no DP's yet).
You know that's not such a bad idea. Adjusting it to only calls "on a 6" period or having it the FF roll-off with the "6" in place and ignoring secret weapons could work. We saw at the Canadian Open 2005 that the new GTR opened the door to a lot more pitch clearings and sudden one-sided games than the previous one did. At least the previous version limited the damage to only one team "maybe" being able to exploit the situation. The new one just flings open the door as we saw happen quite a few times. It felt like 3rd edition all over again! (And the apothecary bills! Oh my...)
The new pitch invasion is so weakened now no one really cared about it. Ergo as per Galek's note maybe switching their positions in the KO table is in order to create more balance. (Heck the weather table now had more effect on games than the "NFL'ed" table does! )
And as for the Blitz, sure it's toned down, however the Tournament did clearly show that it now favours certain races over others. What effect that would have on later "race weightings" in ratings is too soon to tell. However it's clear that all Elf, Skaven, Chaos Dwarves and Necromantic teams ADORE the new one, while teams like the Dwarves and Orcs see it now as a wasted Kick-off roll as they can't do much with it. (Unlike the above mentioned teams) Sure the previous one was deadly, but it was equal in how races could exploit it. (Besides this is bloodbowl...deadly is supposed to be there! ) At this time I'm curious if other tournaments are going to continue to show that pattern. More diversity of coachs and teams used are needed to reach a conclusion, so right now it's a theory made earlier that is starting to show disturbing results so far...
Personally I still love the old KO table. (A "real man's" table! ) However I can see what is being attempted here is to lower the effect it has on the game so that more of a coaches' and team's skills can come out in the game. That makes sense. "Penelty Time" is a heck of a lot better than Riot. It's those other three changes that seem to be causing the problems. Pitch Invasion is pretty neutered (much to the disappointment of the millions of Goblin fans out there. ) but maybe that was the goal. It's GTR that's seems to be now MORE influential rather than the reverse, and Blitz is now showing favourtism between races rather than being equal opportunity.
But once again, I'll need to see how it fairs at more major tournaments to see if this was just a fluke, or if it's a definate pattern. 
Doubleskulls - Feb 28, 2005 - 03:37 PM
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Da_Scum wrote:
We saw at the Canadian Open 2005 that the new GTR opened the door to a lot more pitch clearings and sudden one-sided games than the previous one did.
As BB has evolved the most abusive combinations have been removed - most of which were injury causing. Making BB more bloody has been a common request. So being more bloody than the old version isn't necessarily a bad thing. Half the time the team being cleared from the pitch would have been so anyway. Still I've said before I don't particularly like it either - I just don't agree that its that much worse.
Da_Scum wrote:
The new pitch invasion is so weakened now no one really cared about it. Ergo as per Galek's note maybe switching their positions in the KO table is in order to create more balance. (Heck the weather table now had more effect on games than the "NFL'ed" table does!
)
I found the new PI more devasting for the drive than pretty much any other result on the table. When 3-4 players are stunned on one team and 1-2 on another it makes a huge difference. Anyway at least it doesn't decide the game (or even the league) any more.
Da_Scum wrote:
Dwarves and Orcs see it now as a wasted Kick-off roll as they can't do much with it.
Because they aren't thinking about it at all. Blitz on slower teams is a marginally weaker version of perfect D (because you can't move the ones on the LOS) and they probably aren't set up for it. Personnally I consider Perfect D to be a great KO result.
Having the kick skill and kicking short is going to make a huge difference on a slow team blitz. You won't see too many teams with Kick at a tournament.
In PBBL there has been a slight change. Players can now take any action - except that players that start in an opponent's LOS. So you can use your blitz to push people back onto your other players for a block - or make a foul (or TTM or throw a bomb or whatever). This ought to give bashy teams a bit more of an edge since often they'll find the 3 LOS players unmarked and in a position to block and/or exploit a short kick.