NAF World Headquarters :: View topic - Losing with Wood Elves

NAF World Headquarters

Strategy and Tactics - Losing with Wood Elves

Kyrie - Mar 11, 2003 - 08:52 AM
Post subject: Losing with Wood Elves

I used to say that I play only for pleasure of gaming, but when you've got 80% of matches lost, a question comes up to my mind.... Would I ever win a match with a TR 100 Wood Elves team? Shocked

I start with a team like this:
1 WD
2 Catchers
8 Linemen
or
4 Catchers
7 Linemen

I have to say that luck is not a friend of mine. Razz

Marcus - Mar 11, 2003 - 09:10 AM
Post subject:

1 Wardancer
10 Lineelves
2 RRs
8 FF

for a league team. Yet to see a starting WE league roster better.

As for winning - can't offer advice on how to win until you tell us how you're losing....

Longshot - Mar 11, 2003 - 09:17 AM
Post subject:

or
2 WD,
1 Catcher
8linelf
2RR
1FF(i know high FF would be better in a league but...)

martynq - Mar 11, 2003 - 09:22 AM
Post subject:

Longshot wrote:

1FF(i know high FF would be better in a league but...)

There are no "buts" about it. If you are playing wood elves in a league, 1FF is a dreadful choice - players will die and you will be unable to afford to replace them.

(1FF is fine in a tournament where players are miraculously healed after each match.)

Martyn

ohiohuskies - Mar 11, 2003 - 02:07 PM
Post subject:

gotta agree with marcus here...started a wood elf team and thats what i went for...ff8=more cash Very Happy

.
but if next years bb is no star players (which im rooting for) then a ff1 is fine with me Confused

Kyrie - Mar 12, 2003 - 09:57 AM
Post subject:

Marcus wrote:

As for winning - can't offer advice on how to win until you tell us how you're losing....

It's only a matter of bad luck....If a roll two dice in a block, I'm really sure that the result will end in a Skull-Skull. Well, you will say that I can RR, but another double skull will come to bring my player down. Also if I try to dogde or sprint or whatever I do, the player will fall.
Luck is a thing I've never met in almost 53 matches

dlb1969 - Mar 14, 2003 - 07:56 AM
Post subject: Kyrie...

Kyrie wrote:

Marcus wrote:

As for winning - can't offer advice on how to win until you tell us how you're losing....

Well, I can certainly sympathize with you on having bad luck when it comes to die rolls and the like; even the ones in my favor. It always seems that if I go for something with less chance of success I make them, but when I go for those two die blocks or 2+ dodges, throws, etc. I will fail them 70% of the time. I played a dwarf team for the last two seasons in our league and I had no where near as many failed blocks, dodges, or throws, etc. with them as have with woodies. Give me an AG3 player and I can throw, dodge, and other things like I was playing an elf team. Give me a AG4 player with block, dodge, and leap and I'm struggling to get him to do anything right. I can't understand it and neither can my league mates. No matter what team I play I always seem to fail those critical maneuvers too. I have earned several nicknames in my league. Critical failure, fumble king, etc. The list goes on and I can't even keep up with them. I have managed to keep procducing pretty good records despite my bad die rolls though. With the dwarves, at least, I've ended up in the championship at the end of the year even though my regular season record wasn't great. It was always good enough to get me into the play offs. Hopefully I can get my woodie team going in the right direction this season. They are currently 1-4, though I did get stuck playing all experienced teams for the first 5 games due to my championship runner up status and us having an odd number of rookie teams this year. I ended up being the odd man out for rookie teams and had to play TR200+ teams with my rookie woodie team. I did manage one win, which is what I was shooting for in the first 5 games. I now start games vs. all the other rookie teams that entered the season with me; of course they aren't rookies anymore so I don't know if that's going to help me much.

Dave

dlb1969 - Mar 14, 2003 - 08:01 AM
Post subject: Starting woodie team...

You should never start a woodie team with less than 7FF in league play. Your players are just too expensive and break too easily for there to be any other choice. I would also suggest trying to get two re-rolls. I started this season with only 1 and I'm kicking myself because of it. I have recently bought my second one, but I would start with two if I could do it over.
I started my team with 2 wardancers, 9 line elves, 1RR, 8FF. While the wardancers are great starting players, they can't carry the entire team and the RRs are more important. You can win with a woodie team made mostly up of line elves and probably even one entirely of line elves.

Dave

Kyrie - Mar 14, 2003 - 08:15 PM
Post subject:

dlb1969 wrote:

No matter what team I play I always seem to fail those critical maneuvers too

I don't have any problem doing suicidal maneuvers...my elves only fail the easiest rolls. I can make 5+ dodges, or passes at Long Bomb range that the woodie will roll a high result, but trying to dodge or the like, it will end in failure.
I won tough games (vs orcs, dwarves) rather than humans, skaven or haflings.

Apedog - Mar 18, 2003 - 12:45 PM
Post subject:

I would say try to minimise the number of dice rolls you make in a turn and go for the most important moves first. Plan for failure and make sure you've covered your back.

Remember that even the most skilled players (Wood Elves) can fail rolls. Sometimes if you make to many rolls or don't prioritise a failures can seem like constant bad luck, after all it is the dice's fault.

Make the safe moves when you can and the audacious one's when you have to and remember that bad luck can strike at any time.

smeborg - Mar 18, 2003 - 07:01 PM
Post subject:

A word about luck in Blood Bowl...

I think luck in BB is a bit like luck in poker - the best player still seems to win, regardless of the luck.

Although it's not always obvious, you need to plan for failure (I mean dice failure or "bad" luck). This thinking applies to player positioning (including set-up), order of moves, order of blocks, when in your turn to make the Blitz/Hand-off/Pass, etc. It needs experience to get these things right consistently.

The Woodies are a very versatile side - for example they can be played aggressively or conservatively (or both, but you have to pick your moment). The amount of choice available to the Woodies on each turn (because of their very high MA and AG) makes them more difficult to play well (I think) than most other races. But when you finally start getting the combinations right, it can be very satisfying.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Smeborg the Fleshless

skummy - Mar 18, 2003 - 07:15 PM
Post subject:

Smeborg: I agree that generally the better coach wins, but when two very good coaches play against each other, it's often the dice that decide the game. Twice in the last year I've seen playoff games in which Count Luthor lost the whole thing becasue he rolled double while moving to tie the game. A bad run on the dice will cancel out good coaching. I'm sure some poker players out there have similar stories.

smeborg - Mar 19, 2003 - 07:29 PM
Post subject:

Skummy -

I don't disagree entirely, but the example you give may be instructive.

Taking risks (e.g. going for it) with a Star Player is a good way to ensure that when bad luck strikes (e.g. a double 1), it will be really nasty.

Cheers

Smeborg the Fleshless

Bevan - Mar 19, 2003 - 11:13 PM
Post subject:

smeborg wrote:

Taking risks (e.g. going for it) with a Star Player is a good way to ensure that when bad luck strikes (e.g. a double 1), it will be really nasty.

I agree. My impression is that Kyrie is rolling too many dice. Although elves usually succeed in everything they do, Rolling Eyes

if you roll more than three 2+ rolls in a turn you'll probably get a premature turnover because you rarely have spare rerolls. Sad

Even players with dodge will fail surprisingly often if you dodge a lot, so overusing the wardancers causes big trouble.

skummy - Mar 20, 2003 - 06:44 AM
Post subject:

In both cases, it was the action to take. Luthor had to go for it once to get into the end zone in turn 8 of the 2nd half of a playoff game to tie it up. (coach had a reroll.) The 2nd instance was a dungeonbowl semi-final game in which luthor had the ball and teleported next to a saurus and a Skink. He blitzed the skink off and had to dodge away from a Saurus to get into the EZ. It was the "right" move both time. Good coaches force you to throw as many dice as possible to beat them.

Dave - Mar 20, 2003 - 04:02 PM
Post subject:

agree there

I think a good Welf coach rolls few dice.
And hardly any at the beginning of his turn and (quite) some dangerous ones at the end of it.

(Exept when you're me and manage to get turnovers in FIVE consecutive turns, using all two RR, when trying to make a quick pass, pick up or catch a accurate pass and so on) Evil or Very Mad

smeborg - Mar 20, 2003 - 07:05 PM
Post subject:

I agree with you both about rolling dice.

A good coach rolls few dice, and forces his opponent to roll many.

I learned the hard way about dice rolling when I first started using Bull Centaurs. It's tempting to go-for-it with them all the time (because they have Sprint and Sure Feet). But if you do that, they start falling over all the time. The same logic applies to Wardancers (or Catchers) if you dodge them all the time.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Smeborg the Fleshless

PaulRoper - Mar 21, 2003 - 04:46 PM
Post subject:

One VERY important lesson you need to have as instinct with a wood elf team.. PRECISION. I've seen Wood Elf teams romping home 5-0, and I've seen them pounded into the dirt for no reward. The essence is to stay away from your opponent's team. Create tackle-zone "walls" etc., but wherever possible, try not to leave any players in base to base contact at the end of your turn. WE's last a lot longer when only one can get hit a turn...

Kyrie - Mar 21, 2003 - 09:55 PM
Post subject: Yes

Bevan wrote:

I agree. My impression is that Kyrie is rolling too many dice. Although elves usually succeed in everything they do, Rolling Eyes

if you roll more than three 2+ rolls in a turn you'll probably get a premature turnover because you rarely have spare rerolls. Sad

Even players with dodge will fail surprisingly often if you dodge a lot, so overusing the wardancers causes big trouble.

You're right. I need to roll a lot, just because I don't want to get the whole line smashed by that ugly dwarves Razz

I don't like rolling a lot, but it's the only way (also with blocks) to have the offence at bay, if I get 3 or 4 blocks in the opponents' turn, it will be sure that a couple or three of my linemen will end playing cards at KO Box. That's the reason.

The main sequence of a turn (in my own point of view) is:
Free Movements (those without rolling dice)
Secured Ones (i.e. Dodges with the skill)
RR Secured (without skill to RR, but with a team one)
Suicidal ...when I won't lose anything more, I start making 4+,5+ dodges, block without the skill or blocking stronger opponents.

I often fail the Secured ones with doubles (skulls or 1s) and that is really BAD luck Shocked

smeborg - Mar 22, 2003 - 09:50 PM
Post subject:

Kyrie - there are times with Woodies that it's better to go for a one-die-block rather than a dodge. And you don't HAVE to dodge out of reach of the opposition ALL the time. Sometimes it doesn't pay.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Smeborg the Fleshless

Thadrin - Mar 23, 2003 - 06:49 AM
Post subject:

Guyin my league started with 2 WD and 9 line, I think he had two RR. I think that gives 4ff.
Two and a half seasons later and he's been in both league finals, losing to and then beating the league's Chaos Dwarf team. My Dwarfs are the perrenial third place team.

Lloyd - Apr 14, 2003 - 08:42 AM
Post subject:

In my first league I kept trying to start a wood elf team but it was continually pounded to the ground.

In the next season I decided to use humans and I ended up winning the second seasons final.

Then the next season I returned to my favourite team the wood elves despite the mocking of my peers that the team would not last. The team ended up being feared not only for its scoring capability but also for maiming other teams.

My point is that if you try another race for a while maybe it will give you greater insites into the benefits of that team such that you can start taking advantage of all of them.

PaulRoper has mentioned the best tactic for elf teams so far.

I'd also like to suggest that for a starting wood elf team and of course depending on what team you are up against you try and keep your blocks to maybe 1 per turn or as a better rule only when it counts ie getting the ball or hitting the closest person to your ball carrier. So effectively your lineman form a highly mobile wall 2 squares apart most of the time a couple of catchers to handle the ball and a wardancer to practically do all the teams blocking/blitzing.

The only real difficulty an elf team might face while using this strategy is the tank. Which is popular with thug teams. There are alot of fine tactics to stop this or slow it down which might involve a spaced out moving wall of lineman or perhaps just the 'death or glory' leap skill.