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Strategy and Tactics - Holding up the game

Rakarth - Sep 02, 2005 - 06:22 AM
Post subject: Holding up the game

I thougth I'd post this topic as i'm sure a lot of people have opinions on the subject.

I have played a few games recently where my opponent's have managed to get the ball into a box or other position where it is nigh on impossible to get to it without your oppenent moving to your endzone to force a touch down.

Now I personally find it against the ethos of the game. You are meant to batter people senseless, and when given the opportunity, to score. The tactic of holding the ball on purpose, when you have the ability to play for a touchdown is very annoying. it just makes for a really annoying, slow game and takes the fun out of it.

If I have the opportunty to score, I will always make the attempt (albeit after i have made a couple of blocks, if it is not critical to make the touchdown), even if it means my opponent may have enough turns to score back. This is all part of bloodbowl.

Just wanted to get your opinions on the matter. By the way, I play with both Undead and Darkelves, so am looking at this from both styles of play.

slup - Sep 02, 2005 - 07:06 AM
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Running the clock as it is called is a viable tactic, but it is just as annoying as 1 turn scorers.

Most coaches find it harder to succesfully manage the clock against skilled opponents.

Countermeasures are:
1.: Get in the way
Make it hard for him to advance down the field by opstructing his path with players, this way he will not be able to score in turn 8 because he hasn't advanced enough down the field.
Do not get into physical contact, keep 1 square between your players and his.

2.:Go for the ball.
Elven teams with leap and strip ball should try and go for the ballhandler and release him of his duties.
The same should big guys with break tackle.
Remember to remove those defensive assists.

3.: Quarterbacksack
Fast teams (human, skaven) may kick deep w/kick and attact the ballhandler before he enters the cage.

4.: Overwhelming
Strong guardheavy teams (chaos, orc, dwarves) should attack a corner of the cage and put some ST4 guardmen next to the ballhandler.
The rest of the team should surround the cage as close as possible, ie. get in his face, making it hard for him to rearrange his players.
This should hopefully force the opponents ballhandler to dodge away with risk of failing (gotta love diving tackle) or leave players a direct hit at the ballhandler.

Rakarth - Sep 02, 2005 - 07:23 AM
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Yeah, i definately use the points under number 1, especially when playing with my elves, although this is not as easy with non elf teams. The other difficulty is when this tactic is used with teams early on in tournaments, or in friendlies, when there are few skills about to help attack the cage's.

TuernRedvenom - Sep 02, 2005 - 09:48 AM
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Stalling is a perfecly valid tactic UNLESS you've already pounded your opponent into the ground and are 2-0 up or you are just stalling to foul off the few remainders.
If you don't want want me to stall with my dwarves vs your wood elves then make me! Put the pressure on my team. But don't whine about stalling. Wood Elves can easily score in 2 turns, dwarves can't. In that case stalling is called playing your team's strengths. It's a tactic. Deal with it. (and yes, I also play agilty teams and bashy teams)
Actually stalling is perfectly in line with the ethos of the game. Many people stall because they can cause more carnage, which is the bottom line of the game. Another part of the ethos is sports ethos, and as such you do everything within the rules to win the game. Stalling is 100% within the rules. Besides, NFL football has clock management too. Very Happy

dmchale - Sep 02, 2005 - 11:09 AM
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i think stalling is viable when the team about to score needs to manage the clock to try and secure a win. If I'm playing your woodies or skaven, you can be darn sure if it's late in the half I'm going to do everything in my power to score in turn 8 and remove your chances of tying the game again/winning after I score the tying run. Like TRV said tho, if you're up 2-0, about to be 3-0, and stalling, what's the point?

That said, it also annoys me when people stall against me. I tend to employ the "foul the heck out of the strongest player I can find" method to force my opponent's hand and get him to score before I cause further damage against his precious player. It's often too time-consuming to impractical to try and put pressure on the cage that's sitting 2 squares from the endzone, you're often just sending your players off to be slaughtered. I had an opponent once do that to me while I was stalling... sending 1 player at a time to try and pressure my 4-person cage (including the BC). Every time he did, before the player got all the way to me, I'd send the protectors out to meet him and lay down the smack. After the 3rd guy in a row got KO/cas'd, he finally wised up and attacked some of my weaker players backfield, at which point I walked in to set up for the next kickoff.

Melifaxis - Sep 02, 2005 - 01:40 PM
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Managing the clock is part of football

Rakarth - Sep 02, 2005 - 02:24 PM
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Yeah, I have no problem with "manaing the clock", but totally wasting it I feel is a bit manipulative, but then that is a matter of opinion I guess.

The tactic itself is not usually an issue in itself, as i am usually capable of getting round the problem, being an experienced and more than capable player, and I have not lost a game for a while, its the fact that some people feel they have to do it to try and win.

Reminds me of Italians in football, standing with the ball on the corner of the pitch, just so the opponent can't score, and we all know how unfair and unsportsman like that is!

TuernRedvenom - Sep 04, 2005 - 11:11 AM
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Rakarth wrote:

Reminds me of Italians in football, standing with the ball on the corner of the pitch, just so the opponent can't score, and we all know how unfair and unsportsman like that is!

Why is that unfair? The opposing team can try to win the ball can't he? There's nothing unfair about it. It just sucks for the neutral supporter.

SteelThunder - Sep 05, 2005 - 10:39 PM
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Running down the clock, as many mentioned is a viable tactic. It may not be the nicest around, but niether is fouling. I've done it and have had it done against me. But most times it has actually cost me games. In a tourney in Baltimore I was stalling out to hold for 1 more turn and then score and tie an elf opponent. He got a lucky break, got into my dwarf cage and knocked the ball loose. It bounced out of bounds. He then retrieved it on the throw in and managed to score the next turn. Not only did I not score and tie, but I ended up losing the match, and the tie would have won the tourney!

Conversely, in a recent playoff game in the AGBBL, my norse opponent tried to stall out. I was able to break a troll slayer free and put a tackle zone on his ball carrier. I then managed to get some blockers out to get in the way of his other runners. His delay cost him a player as I started to just pound his players untill he would score or die.

It may not be a fun tactic, but when trying to win, it can be effective. My only suggestion is to gang-tackle (and foul if you must), a player on his team and force him to score or take a chance and swarm the cage.

Rakarth - Sep 06, 2005 - 05:45 AM
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AG 5 and leap works for me, especially with strip ball and tackle...

KarlLagerbottom - Sep 06, 2005 - 07:26 AM
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Quote:

The tactic itself is not usually an issue in itself, as i am usually capable of getting round the problem, being an experienced and more than capable player, and I have not lost a game for a while ...

Not buying this...if you were so good that you have been undefeated for a long period of time...you wouldn't take the time to whine about the tactics of your obviously inferior opponents.

Quote:

Reminds me of Italians in football...

Gee I can't see how this might be offensinve to Italians out there.

Rakarth - Sep 06, 2005 - 08:22 AM
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[quote="KarlLagerbottom"]

Quote:

Not buying this...if you were so good that you have been undefeated for a long period of time...you wouldn't take the time to whine about the tactics of your obviously inferior opponents.

As I said not a problem, just takes the fun out of a game, and it is bad when a coach has to resort to those sort of tactics and breakdown the fun of the gameplay.

Paul - Sep 06, 2005 - 08:54 AM
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How is it bad??

If I'm playing Dwarfs, and you're playing Wood Elfs or Skaven, its dumb for me to score as soon as I can, becasue I know that you'll just do the same. If I take 8 turns to score in the first half, I'm winning in the second half. You score early and then I eat up the remaning 6 or 7 turns for me to score and win the game 2-1.

Its a perficlty legit strategy. Yea, it may take some of the fun out of the game, but so does playing a guy with 4 or 5 dirty players, or so does playing a guy with 2 or 3 gutters who can score in a turn. They're all perfictly legal and my advice would be to come up with a way to counteract this and do it.

KarlLagerbottom - Sep 06, 2005 - 11:27 AM
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Quote:

As I said not a problem, just takes the fun out of a game, and it is bad when a coach has to resort to those sort of tactics and breakdown the fun of the gameplay.

Look at this from their perspective...how fun is it to lose time after time to the same coach? If they can not compete with you in a more wide-open style of game...they are going to have to try another tactic.

And by the way...yes, you can have fun playing Blood Bowl even if you lose, but it is a competition...and I'm sure that your downtrodden opponents might like to win once in a while. If you don't like how they are trying to stop you...then you do something different to change up the experience for them. Why don't you try a different team or different tactic yourself to at least change-up the way you beat them? They might still be losing, but at least the variety will keep them interested.

EDIT:

Rakarth wrote:

AG 5 and leap works for me, especially with strip ball and tackle...

P.S. I'm quite sure that your Stalling Dwarf Opponent feels that the combo above is manipulative and not too fun to play against. While that is an awesome combo for you...I'm sure that your opponent dreads playing against the "Nearly Automatic Cage Breaker" that you describe. I personally have no problem with either...but it is a give and take. if you feel that certain non-elf tactics sapp the fun from the game...then stop sticking it to them to the hilt with the killer elf-combo.
OR...keep playing your way...and let them play their way without complaining.

SteelThunder - Sep 06, 2005 - 02:47 PM
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There are tactics to handle players like the AG-5 elf in question. You simply have to play with an open cage, allowing him to get in and once he's in, you swarm him and crush him.

Enter if you dare elf.

Rakarth - Sep 07, 2005 - 04:30 AM
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Yeah, very true steel, it is a risk to jump in the middle of a cage! and the combo used is to give a reasonable chance of opening the play a bit..

Oh and I have changed my team already, I was playing with Undead for a couple of years, but after a while, perfected them and became boring.

I hope i'm not aggrevating anyone with this topic, just wanted your opinions. I shall take your advice and change the game plan a bit, and force my opponent to play their hand more, rather than wreck his cage.

Spazzfist - Sep 07, 2005 - 09:50 AM
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Rakarth wrote:

Oh and I have changed my team already, I was playing with Undead for a couple of years, but after a while, perfected them and became boring.

Do you mean you perfected the team, or your skill as a coach with that particular team?

Rakarth wrote:

I hope i'm not aggrevating anyone with this topic, just wanted your opinions. I shall take your advice and change the game plan a bit, and force my opponent to play their hand more, rather than wreck his cage.

But by wrecking his cage you are forcing his hand. You are leaving him with fewer defensive players and less to set up with the next time. If he is going to stall, then make him pay! Unless you have a team that can leap, dodge, prance and do all those other airy fairy things that do not involve maiming him into submission.

SteelThunder - Sep 07, 2005 - 11:02 PM
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In our Reading, PA league (the former PCBBL), when I had a slow marching cage running down field both the Skaven coach and the Undead coach would back out of my way and swarm one or two of my other players. The threat of death of another player was enough to convince me to score and not drag out the "stalling-game".

As mentioned before, it may not be the most sporting tactic, but if you are playing to win, sometimes it's necessary. Peronally, I think it's much more sporting than fouling, but that too is part of the game. This is Blood Bowl after all isn't it?

KarlLagerbottom - Sep 08, 2005 - 05:16 AM
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SteelThunder wrote:

Ok...just so I have this straight...and I'm taking notes here...the solution to the AG5 Elf is to hit him? Hmm...hadn't thought of that. Wink

Thanks. -RobO

Paul - Sep 08, 2005 - 06:10 AM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:

SteelThunder wrote:

Ok...just so I have this straight...and I'm taking notes here...the solution to the AG5 Elf is to hit him? Hmm...hadn't thought of that. Wink

Thanks. -RobO

That is a very interesting strategy there. I think I might just give that one a try next time I play an elf team.
Laughing

Spazzfist - Sep 08, 2005 - 07:32 AM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:

Ok...just so I have this straight...and I'm taking notes here...the solution to the AG5 Elf is to hit him? Hmm...hadn't thought of that. Wink

conversely the simple solution to busting a cage is to have an AG5 elf on your team! Damn! I should have thought of that! How much does one cost for my Rotters team? Wink

Spazz

Torpor - Sep 08, 2005 - 07:44 AM
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Hmmm. Waiting for Elves to fail dodge rolls and kill themselves seemed a bit slow. Will have to try blocking... Wink

Khaine - Sep 08, 2005 - 08:23 AM
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But watching prancy elveses stub their toes and die is so much more fun then the simple act of pounding them into the gvround with blocks. I mean come on any moron with a pulse can block elves, but it takes real skill to let them prance until they break themselves.

Rakarth - Sep 08, 2005 - 08:25 AM
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Yes, those accursed 1's!!

SteelThunder - Sep 08, 2005 - 11:32 PM
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Not just hitting them, but presenting an opportunity to lure him in. It's a bit of a risky tactic, but I've pulled it off successfully before, many times. You keep a looser formation with the cage, but have tacklers spread out so that there is one obvious way in, but no easy way out. Diving tacklers make this much better.

The Idea is that they opponent will get a 1-die block on the ball carrier. You have to be prepared for the ball to pop loose. By using an open-style cage, you will have TZ's on the ball after it bounces. Your opponent, again, will not have an easy time to get to it, even with a 5 AG, has to roll a 3 to pick up if you have 2 TZ's on that ball.

Just simply make them dodgey bastards roll as many dice as possible, eventually lady luck will smile upon you and you can make elf-souffle'.

Igor_Tahavanale - Sep 10, 2005 - 10:45 AM
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Elves should be slapped. Continue slapping until Elf mush is all that remains. Then scoop up said Elf mush, put it in a water-tight sack, freeze it, and hey-presto! - one Dwarf punch-bag for training with. Pow

As for the ball stalling... anyone who complains about ball stalling is generally playing either a really fast team or has a right-stuff player they can't wait to throw. That is exactly the reason for ball-stalling / running the clock / clock management / whatever you want to call it.

My old Dwarf team won over 90% of their matches, and they didn't do it by giving the ball to Skaven teams with 2 turns to go! That is just foolish.

Yes it is frustrating sometimes, but there can be ways to stop it. Ball stalling uses a fair few players. That means that generally you'll have more players left elsewhere. So use your weight of numbers to kill the other players. Manufacture some shoves in to the crowd. Throw a gobbo at an empty square near the ball carrier (you never know quite what might happen then, always sows a few seeds of doubt that one). Use skills like leap to be a pain in the butt.

I've ball stalled, and I've been ball stalled against. It's a tactic you can only play with a certain degree of nerve in certain situations, and it's a tactic that can backfire horribly. I know ways to break a 'stall' and they're not always by getting the ball; simply making the player walk over the line quicker than he wanted to can be counted as success.

KarlLagerbottom - Sep 10, 2005 - 08:24 PM
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SteelThunder wrote:

Won't the traditional cage have at least 2 TZs on the ball even regardless? Also...if the ball is not enough of a lure for the poncy WarDancer then too bad for the Wood Elf coach...let him crash himself against the outer walls all day...besides why would you give the Elf a 1D block. Even Elves can throw good 1d blocks once and a while. Wink

I think that the loose cage for Dwarfs is a bit of a waste of resources...no need to "trick" blitzes onto the ball carrier. The stubborness of the Dwarfs... "This is what we are going to do...stop us if you can."

AK_Dave - Dec 01, 2005 - 01:54 AM
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I prefer Elf (DE) teams and I enjoy it when my opponent forms a tight closed cage, especially with one side of it anchored on or near the sidelines. A pushback from the outside forward corner on a diagonal lane usually makes a mess of the whole formation, especially if the target gets knocked down and gums up the mess by being Stunned. Sometimes its even worth doing with a Witch Elf for Frenzy's bonus second block if that means I have a chance of driving someone off the field or deliberately pushing the ballcarrier to the edge of the cage.