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Babs - Aug 03, 2006 - 01:22 AM
Post subject: On behalf of Shadowforge miniatures...

Message reads:

Quote:

Thanks to the efforts of a concerned European gamer both myself and Paul Ashton from
Amazon Miniatures have discovered someone on Ebay selling recasts of our miniatures.
I have absolute proof of this in my possession - 5 recast miniatures.

The seller in question is Peter Kerestan from Nevada, trading under the name of
Weewarriors.

Both Paul and I have contacted him by email. In Paul's case it was to inquire how he
could offer multiple sales of Amazon miniatures whereas he had only purchased one
each of these same miniatures from Amazon some time previously. For myself I ordered
him to cease and desist from selling recasts of our miniatures and demanded an
undertaking that he did not do so in the future. Neither Paul or I are satisfied
with the response we received.

I have passed on this information to Ebay and now wait to see what action, if any,
they take over this matter.

Recasting is destructive to the hobby. It hurts everyone, including major companies
like GW and even more so for smaller ones such as Shadowforge and Amazon. Recasting
is counterfeiting, theft of intellectual property rights. In my own case, as a
sculptor, it is especially hurtful and also bloody infuriating. There is the
question of an immediate loss of income, but it goes further than this. The recasts
are poor quality; anyone buying them could believe that our entire product range was
the same. Once one person thinks this it does not take long before others do so too.
Any reputation for good quality product thus gets tarnished and future sales
jeopardised.

I do not say that Weewarriors will sell recasts of Shadowforge or Amazon miniatures
again but both Paul Ashton and I would appreciate it if all concerned gamers kept an
eye on any sales where miniatures are offered for sale loose and unpacked,
especially on EBay. If anyone feels that something looks suspicious, please pass
that information on to us or any other manufacturer who could be involved.

Neil Holloway

Shadowforge Miniatures

The miniatures in question are five assorted cheerleader models.

Just keeping you in the loop, please don't support recasting! Mad

*Mr_Scream* - Aug 03, 2006 - 01:35 PM
Post subject:

thats gay but not being funny im sure weve all bought a copied cd at sometime .. apparently of a lesser quality ... and caused poor robbie williams (for example not that id buy his cd ... ahem) to loose out on royalties owed to him as an artist. i know this is diffrent, miniature companies are tiny compared to the big music companys and couldnt survive if this sort of thing became widespread but, can we have one rule for one and one for another ??

Clan_Skaven - Aug 03, 2006 - 01:47 PM
Post subject:

*Mr_Scream* wrote:

Mr. Scream kinda beat me to the Punch on this one.... I myself do not support pirated anything be it movies, music, or in this case modles,

But to Babs & Paul Ashton have either of you two ever downloaded music or whole albums of the net instead of buying the CD? If your answer is no, then you truely are victoms here & I hope justice is served. But if your answer was yes than maybe your feeling the bitter sting of karma....

I'm not trying to start up an argument here, but just stating a concern is all.

Rod.

GalakStarscraper - Aug 03, 2006 - 04:23 PM
Post subject:

Rod ... this isn't about karma (at least not to me) and for the record ... no I've never downloaded music off the net.

I'm really surprised to see any posts saying "this could be the bitter sting of karma" or "I'm sure we've all bought a copied CD" ...

I personally fall in the camp of recaster should burn slow over a spit.

If you guys never want to get any new minis for BB again ... just talk about karma when the recasters appear as they really do much more harm to the mini business than you can image. When you are a small mini shop ... every figure you sell is a big deal ... and if someone is taking even a single sale and making your product look like crap at the same time ... that's a big deal.

If someone recast the Ice Troll from Impact! and sold even just 45 of them ... that would mean that Impact! would lose the money need to create another new figure for Fantasy Football as an example. So it really is a big deal ... and I don't see karma in this.

And yes Rod you said you didn't support recasting .... but then you went on to suggest that if the guy ever downloaded music off the net he deserved it ... UGH!

Galak

Babs - Aug 03, 2006 - 11:51 PM
Post subject:

For the record I have never downloaded a 'cd' off the internet either. I only have dial-up Smile

However, this is not me we're talking about. It's Neil from Shadowforge. And if you want to see him contnue to support our hobby it is a big deal.

I must say your lack of morality disturbs me. It's theft guys. It really does mean less in the pocket for the rightful distributors.

Doubleskulls - Aug 03, 2006 - 11:58 PM
Post subject:

Babs & Galak right right. Neil has been a generous supporter of this hobby over numerous years and if we want him, and other small companies to flourish and provide us with new minis year after year we need to reciprocate and do what we can to help. That means not buying recasts and if we get sold them then complaining and informing the relevant people.

Willi - Aug 04, 2006 - 02:42 AM
Post subject:

First off I have never downloaded anything illegal from the net. I don´t have a cd player so I have no use for these things (vinyljunkie).

Also recasts cannot be supported in any way and shouldn`t be bought.

On the other hand the statement of Shadowforge seems to me not appropriate for a company that wants to protect its intellectual property. From my experience as an IP lawyer Shadowforge might have a problem if they don`t take serious action against the recaster because if you don`t protect your IP you are at risk to loose it which is why for example GW shoots big guns at anything that could only slightly interfer with teir IP.

Therefore I´d suggest that Shadowforge and Amazon should really consider legal action to stop the person concerned to ever sell recasts again.

Just my opinion.

Clan_Skaven - Aug 04, 2006 - 07:47 AM
Post subject:

First of all where did I say they deserved it Tom????? Maybe you should learn not to put words in others mouths. Rolling Eyes

I did say......But to Babs & Paul Ashton have either of you two ever downloaded music or whole albums of the net instead of buying the CD? If your answer is no , then you truely are victoms here & I hope justice is served. But if your answer was yes than maybe your feeling the bitter sting of karma....

Well they said they did not do anything of the sort, so no harm no foul... (but I ask you Tom had they said yes they did get pirated music , how would that be different from pirated modles? Confused

To Babs & Paul Ashton sorry if you were offended by my point it was not meant to be a personal attack, (according to Tom its like I was making personal attacks Rolling Eyes

)

Tom wrote,...
And yes Rod you said you didn't support recasting .... but then you went on to suggest that if the guy ever downloaded music off the net he deserved it ... UGH!

I hate anything pirated its ruining the costs for everybody, my point was if any of the concerned above had ever downloaded anything pirated that it was the same thing. ( I never said they deserved anything) So Tom please save me your drama (if thier is any personal attacks it is what you wrote to me.)

Rod

GalakStarscraper - Aug 04, 2006 - 08:03 AM
Post subject:

Rod ...

Its really simple for me ... "the bitter sting of karma" = "deserved".

So no drama here ... I ask the simple question ... if you don't support it at all then why the need to bring up karma and its bitter sting.

And if they had downloaded music ... to me is irrelevant ... really. A wrong doesn't deserve another wrong. Both are undefendable acts and I wouldn't suggest that doing one means that karma has gotten you when the other occurs.

So it wasn't drama ... it was more a question by me of why even bring the topic up???

If you had just written this:

Clan-Skaven wrote:

I myself do not support pirated anything be it movies, music, or in this case models.

Rod.

We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Galak

Clan_Skaven - Aug 04, 2006 - 08:14 AM
Post subject:

GalakStarscraper wrote:

I'm going to be the bigger man & not continue to engage you with this you obviously do not understand (or don't want to understand) what it was I was trying to put across & no matter how I try & explain myself you will just continue to challange what I write.... Rolling Eyes

To anyone offended by my first post (including Tom Rolling Eyes

) I'm sorry, I meant no personal attacks to anyone & I hope that those responsible for the recasting are dealt with.

Rod

Clan_Skaven - Aug 04, 2006 - 08:16 AM
Post subject:

Tom wrote....

If you had just written this:
Clan-Skaven wrote:
I myself do not support pirated anything be it movies, music, or in this case models.

Rod.
We wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Galak

I do agree with you on this.

Rod

*Mr_Scream* - Aug 05, 2006 - 04:43 PM
Post subject:

i dont support the recasting at all, as i said i know its different .. it effects a small buisness diffrentley. i just want it known that i in no way support the recasts, it just made me think of other pireted items that i have bought and had no qualms about doing so.

CyberHare - Aug 05, 2006 - 07:10 PM
Post subject:

Recasters

Shadowforge has been good to the Fantasy Football community and he deserves any support we can send back his way. The "stick it to the man" side of me could almost forgive someone for recasting GW figs as they've stuck it to us often enough over the years but still. How lazy to you really have to be to recast figs. If you've got the ability to cast figs in the first place then offer a service to cast sculpts. Get a few sculpts commissioned and get your own line of figs going Rolling Eyes

Like really.

I've stickied this tread and made it an announcement. Buying recasted figs just isn't cool and hurts our hobby in the end.

Doubleskulls - Aug 05, 2006 - 09:05 PM
Post subject:

Willi wrote:

Therefore I´d suggest that Shadowforge and Amazon should really consider legal action to stop the person concerned to ever sell recasts again.

Its a mom & pop shop, they probably can't afford to.