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House Rules - new Bretonnian team rules
Mordredd - Apr 02, 2003 - 12:43 PM
Post subject: new Bretonnian team rules
I have been play testing a new Bretonnian team in my league and would appreciate some additional feedback. This may be a little long, but please read it and give me your opinions.
First an explanation of how I arrived at this particular team format.
I have seen many teams around, but never one that I liked. They had, to my mind, no consistency with the background or logic concerning which players were selected and which were rejected. Every class of knight was represented in one team, or another, but my biggest problem with the team can be summed up with one phrase.
Bloody peasants!
No self respecting knight is going to allow the honour of Bretonnia to be upheld by some stinking peasant. The only reason they appear on the Bretonnian battle field is that the traditional enemies are all horde armies (Skaven, Orc, and Undead). There are not enough knights so the peasants are used to hold ground until the knights have taken the enemy apart one unit at a time. There are, however, easily enough knights to form a 16 man blood bowl team.
That leaves types of knights and skills.
Most popular seems to be Questing knights with stand firm. Of all the knights I feel the Questing knights would not stay in one place long enough to join a BB team. They are, after all, off questing for the Grail. And stand firm is the trait of a race that stubbornly holds their ground, like Dwarves, not a race of knights renowned for their devastating charges.
So, that leaves Grail knights, old pro???s and inspirational leaders. Knights of the Realm, skilled blitzer types, and Knight Errant, the wannabe knights of Bretonnia.
Finally I present the new team as it currently stands.
0-1 Grail Knight 130k 6 4 3 9 block leader pro GEN ST
0-6 Knight of the Realm 90k 6 3 3 9 block GEN ST
0-12 Knight Errant 70k 7 3 3 8 none GEN
Reroll 50k
No team wizard. Where is the honour of winning because some maiden off the pitch lightning bolted that Orc blitzer in the back?
No fouling. A knight would not stain his honour by cheating in any way.
The team has been modified during the season, and now seems quite balanced. They have won all 4 games, but they were toned down and made more expensive after the 2nd. In addition their third game was made easier by the other teams previous thrashing at the hands of a truly vicious undead team 2 games earlier (3 niggles, 2 dead). Their 4th game was a horribly close (2-1) rematch with the Chaos Dwarf team they played first game.
tommyboy - Apr 02, 2003 - 12:57 PM
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What about squire's????
Furthermore, I believe JJ doesn't consider Blood Bowl to be "in the Warhammer World" or something like that. So the peasants aren't to much of a strecth.
Although I am all for a subdivision of the human race; just like elves, skavens (clan bowl) and dwarves (Worlds Edge League).
I even came up with rules for a Human League- but have yet to playtest any of it.
Keep playtesting. 4-0 is good, maybe too good?
Valen - Apr 02, 2003 - 03:46 PM
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Mordredd,
I like them, but the squires Tommyboy mentioned should be in there I feel.
Tommyboy,
I would be interested too see your human league rules!
GalakStarscraper - Apr 03, 2003 - 05:13 AM
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Grail Knight needs to lose Block.
If you want to make a Grail Knight go with doubles skills that make him seem a great warrior ... let him fill in skills like Pro and Block with skill rolls.
I'd go with Dauntless, Stand Firm, Leader
After testing 77 new rosters in the MBBL2 for 2 years, I and my league have come to the conclusion that no player with ST 4+ should ever start with the Block skill.
Galak
tommyboy - Apr 03, 2003 - 06:41 AM
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Valen-S-
The Human League rules are on this board (in this section).
The thread is titled: THE HUMAN LEAGUE (not the 80's band)
Valen - Apr 04, 2003 - 02:18 AM
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Found it, very ggod!
Mordredd - Apr 04, 2003 - 04:21 AM
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tommyboy
I did not forget about squires, I just failed to explain why I omitted them. Basically it is because they are commoners, and also because a squire is quite literally a knights attendant. I believe in BB they would be called assistant coaches.
I think JJ considers BB to be in the Warhammer world, but not. Kind of like a very close parallel dimension where they have an insane sport with massive corporate sponsorship and cabalvision in all the local pubs instead of massive pitched battles. They are different, but the geography/races/cultures are the same.
You are right, 4-0 is a bit good. However it is not overly surprising considering I was undefeated in our last 2 seasons.
Galak
I had been wondering if the Grail Knight was too powerful, although the CD's bull centaur has been very good at neutralising him. I feel he must retain block as I cannot explain why a Knight of the Realm would forget how to block after successfully questing for the Grail. He should also be stronger than the other knights due to the power of the Lady of the Lake. Perhaps giving him 'horns' instead of ST4? How about preventing him from using team rerolls like a big guy? Too busy praying at the Grail Shrine to practice with the team. Maybe he shouldn't lend and/or receive assists because honour dictates he fight every player one on one?
I still reject stand firm as an un-Bretonnian skill.
Redfang - Apr 04, 2003 - 04:42 AM
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the fact that the Grail Knight knows how to block well would also be reflected by his higher Str, which gives him more dice to roll!
R
Valen - Apr 04, 2003 - 06:53 AM
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I agree that he should keep Block, but I also agree that ST4 + Block is too much, I like the idea of not being able too use team re-rolls!
P.S. I am seeing quite alot of you today Redfang! Have you give up on the Nuffle argument?
GalakStarscraper - Apr 04, 2003 - 08:25 AM
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Valen-S wrote:
I agree that he should keep Block, but I also agree that ST4 + Block is too much, I like the idea of not being able too use team re-rolls!
P.S. I am seeing quite alot of you today Redfang! Have you give up on the Nuffle argument?
Valen, all I can offer you more is the Brettonian team that my league uses we use and you can go from there for other ideas. Our Grail Knight (White Knight) is ST 5 and does lose Block. The ST 5 shows how far he's come with his battle skills (ie he cannot lift the same as a Ogre, but he could take one on in hand to hand combat due to his battle savy).
http://www.blood-bowl.net/GWTeams/Brettonian.html
(Double Blitz is similar to Frenzy ... only useable on blitzes, the 2nd block is option, and you don't have to follow-up).
Galak
Valen - Apr 04, 2003 - 08:43 AM
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I like it, the Greater Glory neagative trait is great!
But as was said before, as you have made him a Big Guy he can't use team re-rolls!
KarlLindemann - Apr 04, 2003 - 03:40 PM
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i think that the rules in the compendium(i think the compendium anyway) are fine, I see no problem with them so far in my league i was 3-2 before we had to stop the league.
I say nuts to no peasants i enjoy having cheap guys to throw around aimlessly around the pitch to get in the way.
Mordredd - Apr 04, 2003 - 04:25 PM
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KarlLindemann wrote:
i enjoy having cheap guys to throw around aimlessly around the pitch to get in the way.
Buy a Goblin team then 
KarlLindemann - Apr 05, 2003 - 09:59 AM
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Good idea! that'd be fun, but I like how i painted my Brettonians 
dlb1969 - Apr 10, 2003 - 10:26 PM
Post subject: Re: new Bretonnian team rules
Well, I don't like it either. Block and ST4 shouldn't be mixed as Galak has stated. I made this error with our leagues Breattonian team also and it was a disaster. We changed after just one season. If you want to show his great skill he can do it with other skills or traits. We have a questing knight in our team, but you reasoning for not including them makes sense so I might just re-think my team. I know you said you didn't like the idea of having peasants and I agree and I know you said you though squires should not be allowed on the field either. I think your reasoning for that makes sense too. If not either of those, then what about men-at-arms. I believe the brettonians do use regular soldiers don't they. I think of the brettonians as a hard hitting, quick strike type team. What about this:
0-12 Men-at-Arms 50k none GN
0-2 Errant Knights 70k 6 3 3 8 pass, nerves of steel, honorable GN, PS
0-4 Realm Knights 100k 7 3 3 8 block, nerves of steel, honorable GN, ST
0-2 Grail Knights 130k 6 4 3 9 mighty blow, dauntless, nerves of steel, honorable GN, ST
RR=50k, no wizard, apoth=yes
Players with honorable can't foul.
I don't like the Greater Glory trait that is used on Galak's leagues, no offense Galak.
Having leader and pro on the same guy is a little over doing it in my opinion. I don't think any player should start with leader at all myself. That gives the team a cheap way to get a re-roll. Pro is okay for a knight, but I think dauntless and mighty blow feels better for a quick hard hitting player. I added nerves of steel becuase I think knights are pretty much fearless for the most part.
Let me know what you think of my version of the team. I'm thinking of actually changing my current league set up to this. I don't see they Brets having a true catcher type player so I didn't add one.
Deacon - Apr 11, 2003 - 02:04 AM
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Why do all these knights have Move 7? Not on horseback now, you know.
I don't agree with Nerves of Steel on them, or Leader on the the Grail Knight - he's a loner after all. I do like Dauntless for the Grail Knight though, fits in with his character.
I see Brettonians as noble, but arrogant; and they should show that on the pitch. So here's my lot...
0-12 Men-At-Arms 40K 6 3 3 7 none GEN
0-4 Errant Knights 50K 6 3 3 8 Honorable GEN
0-4 Realm Knights 90K 6 3 3 9 Block, Honorable GEN ST
0-2 Grail Knights 110K 6 3 3 9 Block, Dauntless, Honorable GEN ST
Reroll : 50K
No Wizards. Apothecary allowed.
Honorable players may not foul.
Special Rule: In addition, all Knights are so full of themselves that they will not hand off or pass the ball to a man of 'lower caste', in this case, Men -At-Arms.
Okay, my reasoning. Let a commoner grab the glory away from a knight of the realm? 
No chance, hence the special rule. I see the attitude of knights being vainglorious, using the Men-At-Arms as nothing but baggage carriers and as someone to stand in front of the opponent's Ogre whilst they score!
Comments?
Deacon - Apr 11, 2003 - 02:10 AM
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Hmmm, should I have given the Grail Knights Pro as well? 
raggabagga - Apr 11, 2003 - 07:33 PM
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the str 4 and block is abusive, my bret's went 12-0 in a league, then the next season they were taken off the team list. but the real sticker was block and stand firm, just made them annoying. I like the roster myself dlb. but i think that errant knight is a bit on the cheep in w/the nerves of steel trait. i admit i don't know much about the history of the bret's in warhammer, as i have never played warhammer, but i liked the pesants myself ).
Agentrock - Apr 11, 2003 - 10:51 PM
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We tried the Bret team and found it was way out of balance so it was dropped...
Dave - Apr 12, 2003 - 12:39 AM
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I think Deacon's list is kinda nice. But feels a bit like the Amazon and Norse lists. Perhaps give the errant knights a +1 Ma for 10K
Mordredd - Apr 12, 2003 - 07:02 AM
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dlb1969
I have already dropped the Grail Knights ST to 4 and added dauntless for the team next 2 games. Would have posted this earlier, but the forum wouldn't let me 
. I think that I will drop dauntless for the 2 games following that. The first of the current 2 was against Wood Elves, so had no real effect.
Men at arms not a bad idea. Still don't like them as they're commoners, but if I can't get the all knight team to balance I'll give them a go. Standard human lineman profile I think.
I don't like the Greater Glory trait either. It describes an extremely self centred, selfish player. It's just wrong as any Bretonnian knight should be selfless and virtuous, especially a Grail Knight.
Nice idea on the nerves of steel, but I think you make the team into too much af a passing side like that. Also, remember that a Knight Errant is in the process of proving he is worthy of being a Knight of the Realm, so he should be in some way a lesser version of that player. I therefore don't think that pass is right for the Errants. Not all teams have ,need, or want, throwers.
Deacon
I gave my Errants MA 7 to make them appear younger than the Knights of the Realm, and because they were wearing less armour to prove how brave they are. I also see the knights as being very strong, and so not as encumbered by their armour as others may be.
There are different ways of being a leader. Through fear and general hardness (Orcs and Chaos) to actual 'leadership skills' like inspirational personal example (High Elves, Humans). I think the Grail Knight, as the epitome of chivalry, would be someone that all the lesser knight would look up to and be inspired by. So he's a leader for his shining example and vast experience.
I like the special rule, but perhaps a roll to show the competition between snobbery and nobility?
As for the men at arms getting in the way of the Ogre, I think that all the knights would want to be the one that personally takes him down. Especially the Knight Errants.
Agentrock
Which team did you try, and why did you think it was out of balance?
My team now stands at
0-1 Grail Knight 130k 6 3 3 9 Block Pro Leader Honourable (dauntless which may be dropped) GEN ST
0-6 Knight of the Realm 90k 6 3 3 9 Block Honourable GEN ST
0-12 Knight Errant 70k 7 3 3 8 Honourable GEN
reroll 50k; wizard not allowed; apothecary allowed