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Rules Questions - Wild Animal and Blitzing...

StoutYoungblood - Nov 01, 2006 - 12:09 PM
Post subject: Wild Animal and Blitzing...

A player in our league has asked this question:

A wild animal has the ball and is within scoring range:

Should a wild animal be able to declare a 'Blitz' action (getting the benefit of a better roll) but then NOT blitz anyone and go in for the score?

He said this was done to him at the Chaos Cup. Is this legal?

SolarFlare - Nov 01, 2006 - 12:57 PM
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It is legal. Some players do not like it, though.

nyarlathotep - Nov 01, 2006 - 01:15 PM
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SolarFlare wrote:

It is legal. Some players do not like it, though.

It still wastes the blitz and the cow just sits there if they roll a 1, so I don't have a problem with it.

I can see why other people would, though.

Never been in that situation, however.

Primesupreme - Nov 01, 2006 - 02:05 PM
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I think I would have a problem with this. It just seems like rule abuse to me. But hey if it is legal I guess it is legal. It just doesn't sound right.

Blitz: The player may move a number of squares equal to their
MA. He may make one block during the move. The block may be
made at any point during the move, and ???costs??? one square of
movement.

That is straight from the rulebook. So the block is optional. Sucks don't it?

bampf - Nov 01, 2006 - 02:17 PM
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This can come up frequently... say you need to dodge or leap to make a 1 Die block blitz and blow your RR on that roll. You always have the option of backing out of that risky block. Similar situations arise with declared pass or hand-off actions... blow a much needed RR during your movement you can back out.

However, I agree when combined with WA it feels much more beardy, but it is a valid tactic.

StoutYoungblood - Nov 01, 2006 - 02:36 PM
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Quote:

BLITZ MOVES
Once per turn a player on the moving team is allowed to make a
special Blitz move. A blitz allows the player to move and make a
block. The block may be made at any point during the move, but
costs one square of movement for the player to make. The
player may carry on moving after the effects of the block have
been worked out if he has any squares of movement left.

After discussing it on our board we decided that a block must be made during a blitz action. There is nothing (see above) in LRB 5.0 that says a block action is optional.

Primesupreme - Nov 01, 2006 - 04:07 PM
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Did you miss the whole MAY statement in my quote. May indicates the optionality of the block. I don't agree with it, but reading the rules it is a valid move.

StoutYoungblood - Nov 01, 2006 - 04:12 PM
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I believe the 'may' you are referring to means during the blitz you may do the block action at any point of your move, ie. not forced to do it on the 3rd square of movement.

Quote:

A blitz allows the player to move and make a block.

Doesn't say the player may make a block, does it?

Spazzfist - Nov 01, 2006 - 04:53 PM
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Primesupreme wrote:

Did you miss the whole MAY statement in my quote. May indicates the optionality of the block. I don't agree with it, but reading the rules it is a valid move.

(Putting on his teacher hat) Actually, "may" can be a misleading word, and does not necessarily mean that there is an option there.

For example, if I were to say: "When I break wind I may laugh at myself." This connotes an option, depending on the sophistication of my sense of humour. But if I were to say: "When I break armour I may roll for an injury" means that it is okay for me to do so, but not an option in this case, just finnicky language.

Primesupreme wrote:

Blitz: The player may move a number of squares equal to their
MA. He may make one block during the move. The block may be
made at any point during the move, and ???costs??? one square of
movement.

In this case, all it is saying that the block is made at some point during the move. There is one block to be made, and it may be made at any square the player moves to or before the player moves. The whole section on blitzing would need to be added to be clear on this. (And I am too lazy to look it up right now).

Up until now, it has always been the rule that you could blitz without making a block. Unless LRB5 has changes that, then that would still be the case (unless you house rule it out).

nyarlathotep - Nov 01, 2006 - 05:47 PM
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I think that to prevent accusations of "cheese-head", we're going to house-rule a blitz requires a block somewhere along the movement path in our league.

I'm the only guy playing with a Wild Animal right now, anyway.

aerofool - Nov 01, 2006 - 06:45 PM
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Maybe it's time we try to get this issue into the Q&A or get a line of text added to the rule stating that a block must be done on a blitz or that a block does not have to be made.

Maybe Galak will show up and make note of it!

Xeterog - Nov 01, 2006 - 06:51 PM
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it's been discussed at length here and on other boards. The block is an optional part of a blitz action. Just as the Pass is an optional part of a Pass Action and a Foul is an optional part of a foul action. Heck, even movement is an optional part of the Move action.

I'm a too lazy and sick right now to look up previous threads on it, but they are out there..

Jonny_P - Nov 01, 2006 - 07:22 PM
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Not actually doing the block seems to go against the intent of the Wild Animal rule. I would hope an official Q&A will fix this one day.

If someone did this while playing against me, I would make fun of them every turn thereafter. This is also a "valid tactic". Wink

Xtreme - Nov 01, 2006 - 08:56 PM
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It is a beardy move to do it with a wild animal, but I don't think the rule should be changed to require all blitzes to throw the block.

Example
I have a risky move to get to the blitz but my player has dodge. there are two dodge rolls before I can throw the block, I fail the first dodge and have to use my dodge skill on that. I no longer want to risk the second dodge so I end my blitz action there without throwing the block.
IMO that is not beardy, its only an issue when Wild animal is involved.

In past editons of the rules I know it was clarrified that you did not have to throw the block, not sure if anything has been said about the issue in 5.0 though.

Darkson - Nov 02, 2006 - 03:55 AM
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As the former ANSWER_MOD on the GW BB forum, I can confirm that a Block doesn't NOT have to be thrown as part of a Blitz action, and that the move used in the original post is completely legal - wheter you think it smells of cheese is entirely up to the individual.

GalakStarscraper - Nov 02, 2006 - 05:35 AM
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Darkson wrote:

Darkson is absolutely correct.

A blitz actions does not require a block at all. The may in the description means JUST THAT ... the block is optional. Same thing for a Pass action ... you do not have to throw the ball if you declare the action.

It is entirely legal to declare a Blitz action with a Wild Animal and just move the player without blocking. If you house rule it otherwise Stout ... just make sure you guys make a note that you ARE house ruling so that when you league mates play in tournaments they realize what the actual rules are.

Galak

StoutYoungblood - Nov 02, 2006 - 06:57 AM
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Thanks to Darkson, Galak and others for the clarification. Now its back to our board to discuss some more. Embarassed

MichaelDonaghy - Jan 16, 2007 - 05:50 AM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:

Darkson wrote:

is that true even in the LRB 5.0? i have a wild animal but i;'m not sure how comfortable i am with that. th LRB5 doesnt mention the "may" part of pervious incarnations of the rule as far as i remember.

whats the final ruling on this with full complaince with lrb 5.0?

nyarlathotep - Jan 16, 2007 - 06:32 AM
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Galak says that there doesn't have to be a block thrown on a blitz. So that's what my Minotauir is using

GalakStarscraper - Jan 16, 2007 - 07:03 AM
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MichaelDonaghy wrote:

Quote:

Page 7 LRB 5.0:
Blitz: The player may move a number of squares equal to their MA. He may make one block during the move. The block may be made at any point during the move, and ???costs??? one square of movement.

You can declare a Blitz with a Wild Animal for the 2+ and then just move if you want.

Galak

BB_Babe - Jan 16, 2007 - 10:11 AM
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Yeah, if you can roll a 2+ Rolling Eyes

My poor Snow Troll failed 2 out of 4 Blitz rolls before she managed to score a goal after she surprisingly caught the ball. Everyone was yelling at her to run for the goal, she was roaring back at them, it was all very confusing, but she finally made it.

Cheers,
Mo

yarrick1imperial - Mar 14, 2007 - 08:15 PM
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I reckon its straight forward since you are blitzing, so if you are not running up to hit someone then its not a blitz is it, its more like just moving, which means that ya should have rolled ya 4+ for wild animal, since you did'nt hit anyone, people with WA want to hit things and i would say thats how you should play it...

If ya making a Blitz action then thats what you do... blitz something... and move on... none of this other crap of arrhh what do they mean...

GalakStarscraper - Mar 14, 2007 - 08:35 PM
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yarrick1imperial wrote:

You don't have to hand-off when you declare a Hand-off Action.
You don't have to pass the ball when you declare a Pass Action.
You don't have to foul when you declare a Foul Action.

So sorry to tell you that you are wrong ... but the last line of this is:

You don't have to block when you declare Blitz Action.

Galak

yarrick1imperial - Mar 15, 2007 - 02:22 AM
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well if ya not doing it then why declare it anyway... i have a feeling that when they do an update on the LRB5 it will be in there after this... like i said, it looks like to me that people are not playing the game as it is ment to be played, too much politics, i reckon if you declare something then thats what you are going to do, whatever it is passing etc, its not very sportsman like to change your idea half way thru your movement... for example ohh i said i was passing but now i will just move sounds like rule abuse to me, i think i would house rule this as i see fit in my own league. fixes the problem if you declare an action that thats what you must do, otherwise you are abusing the rules in my opinon. otherwise you are not using WA as the skill it should be give you are unfair advantage, just becasue you lose you blitz for the turn even if you roll a 1 still give you a 5/6 chance to be successful compared to 50/50

Mootaz - Mar 15, 2007 - 03:11 AM
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yarrick1imperial wrote:

i have a feeling that when they do an update on the LRB5 it will be in there after this.

I seriously doubt that. Galak, the one that gave you the answer, would be the one (probably) responsible for incorporating that into LRB6 as he was the person responsible for LRB5, and you have heard his opinion. Wink

yarrick1imperial - Mar 15, 2007 - 03:23 AM
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Oh well if ya don't ask ya don't get, but i think this ruling of his will have a few coaches pulling their hair out a little, but thats what is good about Bloodbowl leagues is that the commissionar can always change the rules to see fit...

GalakStarscraper - Mar 15, 2007 - 05:41 AM
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yarrick1imperial wrote:

it looks like to me that people are not playing the game as it is ment to be played

its not very sportsman like to change your idea half way thru your movement

for example ohh i said i was passing but now i will just move sounds like rule abuse to me,

Disagree with all 3 of the above (especially the first one as I talk pretty regularly with and during the LRB 5.0 development had 3 face-to-face dinners to discuss the rules with the guy who wrote the game in the first place.)

If I declare a Pass action but need to dodge twice to get to a position to throw the ball and need to use a re-roll on the first dodge for it to be successful and decide the 2nd dodge would be too risky and thus I want to keep the ball. Than I've made a decision that a normal quarterback would make in the game. I thought I was going to pass but now clearly based on the game circumstances ... I'll keep the ball for now.

With your rules ... you would force folks to throw the ball no matter what. That's not my idea of fun.

And what about a Foul action ... if I needed to dodge once and GFI once to get in position to foul and burn a re-roll on the dodge ... are you going to force me to GFI so I can foul with your league house rules? What will be the penalty if I don't???

ALL of the actions that involve movement have optional components for just this reason. If you house rule it to be otherwise ... then you force players to play more consertivately (less fun games) and you also have to house rule whether players suffer a penalty for not completing an action OR force them to risk their player's lives unneccessarily to do so.

But ... yeah ... a BB commissioner is free to change this ... just personally think it would be a really bad idea to do.

In the end ... do you not think that a team giving up its Blitz action just to move the Minotaur isn't downside enough??? Most games I play ... I actually NEED my Blitz action on my turns. So my opinion is that the rules work just like they should .. that I would activiately discourage you (or anyone else) from changing them (unless you never want anyone in your league to take a WA player (in which case ... just remove them from the rosters for your league (lot simpler))) ... and finally ... I can promise you that this won't be changed in any update to LRB 5.0.

Galak

Clan_Skaven - Mar 15, 2007 - 06:19 AM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:

yarrick1imperial wrote:

Well said Galak.

Rod

Cramy - Mar 15, 2007 - 10:30 AM
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@yarrick1imperial

To clarify one point. If you declare an action like blitz, and you later decide not to throw a block, you have then wasted your blitz for that turn. Not throwing the block does not turn the action into a move action.

This is quite a penalty to take just to move your WA player.

And as Galak pointed-out, not allowing for this will make the game dynamics a nightmare in cases where you cannot accomplish the action (ex: Can't get to a position to hand-off if a hand-off action was declared, or can't get to a position to throw a block if a blitz action was declared).

Marc-Andre

yarrick1imperial - Mar 15, 2007 - 12:25 PM
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hmm ok i see your point for the other rules as it has always been played that way, as far as i can see, so let me get this straight in order to get a 2+ roll on say a rat ogre with WA, then all you have to do is say you are going to blitz with him then decide not to and for example if he had the ball to score... he could just move to do so giving he yas successful on his 2+ roll...

BB_Babe - Mar 15, 2007 - 12:30 PM
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Yup. Think of it as a Bltiz attack on the goal line, or wherever else you'd like to move to. It's a Rat Ogre on a mission.

yarrick1imperial - Mar 15, 2007 - 12:41 PM
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thanks guys for all the help even tho i got hammered in this discussion, but sometimes ya got to do it in order to find out why they make the ules like they are, but its all good again thanks peoples...

Doubleskulls - Mar 16, 2007 - 11:49 AM
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Exactly - and you can't then declare a blitz action with another player either.