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Strategy and Tactics - Gutter Runner 1st skill a double

Barrel05 - Oct 01, 2007 - 07:50 AM
Post subject: Gutter Runner 1st skill a double

Just had a GR roll a double on his first skill and was thinkin of gettin a mutation, am leaning towards Foul appearance. Had two GR with sidestep and Blodge, but one got MA-1 so i need a new partner for my scorer. Generally use thw two sidesteppers to go deep for the pass, so FA will help there. What are some thoughts?

Cramy - Oct 01, 2007 - 10:50 AM
Post subject: RE: Gutter Runner 1st skill a double

For Skaven, I like to give my GRs skills that 1) Help them survive and 2) Help them get the ball on defence.

Block and SideStep are good for 1) above. Two of my GRs get that first (as you did).

So for the doubles. I really like Big Hand, followed by Leap. And if you are lucky enough to roll another doubles, give him Two Heads or VLL. This guy's job is ball retrieval when it is on the ground even if it is in the middle of opponents. Leap on the ball in (3+ or 2+ with VLL), pick-up on a 2+, then dodges out, handoff/pass to another GR who runs as fast as he can.

I also really like VLL for the guy who makes the ball carrier drop the ball. Add Leap, block or wrestle (wrestle if more efficient, but more dangerous as you end-up prone) and strip ball. You can now leap in the cage on a 2+, get a 1-die blocks on the ball carrier in the cage. This guy is also really good as a safety, to get at those catchers trying to run away with the ball, even if he has a bit of assistance (again, leap on a 2+). Note that VLL is important here because you want to use your RR on the 1-die block (and sometimes 1/2 die block).

Foul Appearance is not a bad choice though, as it will help protect your GR. But for me this would be a skill taken later, as it doesn't help my GR be that much more efficient on defence (aside from the fact that he may still be on the pitch if he had FA Smile

). Other skills help more on defence IMO.

If there are lots of long passes in your league, then VLL, Disturbing Presence, and Pass Block could be pretty good, but never tried it.

Spazzfist - Oct 01, 2007 - 11:15 AM
Post subject: RE: Gutter Runner 1st skill a double

I would agree with the Big Hands choice. Remember that Foul Appearance is not what it once was, and so it only offers minimal protection, and it no longer disrupts passing plays.

I think the opportunity to pick up on a 2+ regardless of TZs is definitely the way to go!

Barrel05 - Oct 02, 2007 - 12:29 AM
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I hear ya on Big hand, but its not so much a case of him needing to be used to pick up the ball when i have a thrower with AG4 who has sure hands. Also I ruled out VLL as I have a GR with leap, and was goin to build this guy up as a diving tackler, but after my other Sidesteper got MA-1 I need to replace him as one of my scoring options. The reason I'm leaning towards, FA is for that extra little roll an opponent would have to make to hit him(also would help against Chainsaw atacks which cost me last game), and other Mutations that give a plus 1 bonus such as Extra Arms and Two heads seem wasted on AG4. Have also considered Horns to make him into a free roaming safety

Spazzfist - Oct 02, 2007 - 06:48 AM
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I would think that there are other players who would be better served as being roaming safeties, and as I said before the Foul Appearance cannot be relied upon to work, so me personally, I would go with something that I can exercise more control over.

Even though you have the AG4 thrower, he is more likely to be in your backfield, ready to throw to any of the GRs that are open. The GRs job is to get downfield, and if you have one with Big Hands, then he would be also be a real threat when you kick off to your opponent. He would be able to get into those tight spots, (with his AG 4 and Dodge) get the ball, and then get away again. I wouldn't want to put the thrower in that position.

But then I guess that this question also needs to consider what type of other teams you havein the league....

Doubleskulls - Oct 02, 2007 - 10:35 AM
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I stil think Horns would be a good idea - blitzing at S3 is always nice on an MA9 AG4 player Smile

Barrel05 - Oct 02, 2007 - 05:50 PM
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Spazzfist wrote:

We have a pretty stacked Strong league, but I've played most of them already. I like your point about getting down field on the kick off especially considering i have a player with kick. Thing about Horns is I tend to get into situations were my GRs are the last ones left who can bring down ball carriers as people tend to write them off as none threats with their ST2. Thinkin its a choice between BH and Horns now

Cramy - Oct 02, 2007 - 07:50 PM
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Big Hand and Horns are both good choices. Horns for the fast safety type position. Big Hand to go deep and score while on defence.

Pil - Oct 03, 2007 - 05:29 AM
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I'd say go for very long legs and on your next skill pick leap. I play Lizardmen and encountered one such Gutter Runner last night, and they are a nightmare. They can usually get out of any situation with just one leap and a dodge (or vice versa), which usually means two 2+ rolls, one with reroll.

Spazzfist - Oct 03, 2007 - 06:22 AM
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Pil wrote:

I shouldn't be doing this without the rulebook in front of me, but isn't the Leap skill done on an unmodified AG roll? That would mean that the leap is a 3+ and the dodge is a 2+.

Lycos - Oct 03, 2007 - 08:51 AM
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Double on a GR....I take Guard. As DS pointed, with AG4 and dodge and MV9 the rat can get almost anywhere. Its permantly in use every turn so unlike Horns or Big hand which are very useful...dont get me wrong...but they get used infrequently. Guard is in play all the time. And with skaven you only have 3 players with ST access.
But if you are commited to go for a Mutation....Big Hand. Horns, only an opinion, is not what it was when dauntless was as per LRB4 rules where if you had the 2 in combo it was a fantastic blitzer!

Cramy - Oct 03, 2007 - 06:20 PM
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@Lycos: Guard is not a bad idea, but you need to go in opponent TZs for it to take effect, which I typically try to avoid with GRs.

@Spazz: VLL gives a +1 modifier to leap, hence the 2+ landing in Pil's example. VLL also gives a +1 modifier to interceptions, which is a nice add-on. VLL is a good choice as well on doubles if Leap is taken after, then consider Pass Block.

Barrel05 - Oct 05, 2007 - 03:10 AM
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I spose the decision now is do i want him to be pressuring for the score off the kick off or my go to blitzer

Spazzfist - Oct 05, 2007 - 06:20 AM
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Barrel05 wrote:

I spose the decision now is do i want him to be pressuring for the score off the kick off or my go to blitzer

Well remember that the big hand is not only for the kick off - there are many situations where the ball will be in several enemy TZs, in which case your GR with the Hand can come to the rescue!

Barrel05 - Oct 05, 2007 - 08:22 PM
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Spazzfist wrote:

Barrel05 wrote:

I spose the decision now is do i want him to be pressuring for the score off the kick off or my go to blitzer

Well remember that the big hand is not only for the kick off - there are many situations where the ball will be in several enemy TZs, in which case your GR with the Hand can come to the rescue!

Yeah i know the problem i'm having is that i'm often in the position where my GR's are often the only ones in a position to make the blitz, with their superior speed

Opus - Oct 07, 2007 - 10:45 AM
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In my opinion - depends upon what version of the LRB you are using. In 5, VLL only gives you +1 to intercept and Leap rolls, not extra movement. I've always been a fan of Leap and TwoHeads - gets you into and out of trouble with minimal effort.

Of course - if you want a "safety" who will blow up on opponent's possession, why not get Dauntless? I mean Leap and Dauntless will disrupt just about any cage that the opponent can muster (except for Guard, the ultimate evil). Smile

Barrel05 - Oct 07, 2007 - 06:53 PM
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Opus wrote:

LRB 5, and am only looking at mutations, i'm not a fan of Dauntless on Gutter Runners, especially when I have a Rat Oqre with Block and Juggernaught as a perfectly good cage breaker

KarlLagerbottom - Oct 08, 2007 - 10:48 AM
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I like Horns on the first Double for them...and then dauntless. Sure this combo is not as good as it was, but imagine the MV 9 player throwing 2Dice blocks. LRB4 it was sweet...LRB still very nice.

Doubleskulls - Oct 11, 2007 - 10:17 AM
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Cramy wrote:

@Lycos: Guard is not a bad idea, but you need to go in opponent TZs for it to take effect, which I typically try to avoid with GRs.
.

Exactly. Guard implies you are leaving him in a TZ to be hit next turn. IMO this isn't a good plan for "soft" players. If he already had block/wrestle & sidestep then I'd think differently.

Barrel05 - Oct 11, 2007 - 07:01 PM
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My next games are as Follows ORCs, Wood Elves, Goblins, Amazon, Amazon, Human and then Lizardmen. The Orc team is a very powerful team, with lots of high Strength. Last time I played them the only ones that i had to block were my Runners, so Horns would be good, but if i can force the ball loose BH will be handy(no pun intended) for jumping into the cage and grabing the ball.

TuernRedvenom - Oct 19, 2007 - 02:24 AM
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The added value of horns over dauntless is minimal IMO, both mean you will throw a 1-die block on a STR 3 player. Dauntless is better then horns vs players with higher strength (4 or more) while horns is better vs player with lower strength. (2 or less) So this might depend on the league composition a bit. But, in general, seeing as you can take dauntless on a normal roll I'd take big hand. Ignoring the tackle zones when picking up the ball can often decide the game. You do have a strip baller right? Wink

Barrel05 - Oct 19, 2007 - 07:12 AM
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I dont have a strip baller, but am not going to waist a double on general skills, such as strip ball or Dauntless. It kinda defeats the purpose dont ya think.

TuernRedvenom - Oct 19, 2007 - 08:00 AM
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Erm, I think you missed my point(s), all IMO of course:
* Big Hand is especially usefull if you also have another strip ball gutter runner because a stripped ball is very likely to end up in tackle zones.
* You shouldn't take Horns because Dauntless does almost the same thing and doesn't require any doubles.

But disturbing presence is a very nice mutation as well.

edit: on a side note, you should really get a strip ball runner, they are worth their weight in gold! Even if your opponent has sure hands guys, just by having a strip baller and with clever use of the kick skill you can force your opponent into more risky plays (gfi's, hand offs) and limit his options.

Barrel05 - Oct 19, 2007 - 07:17 PM
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I see what your saying, but i dont like my GR's to be in the position of having to be the ones doing the hitting. Strip ball will be good for my blitzers or linerats, but the GR's job is to get the ball then score where big hand is probably the best option especially combined with kick.

TuernRedvenom - Oct 20, 2007 - 05:55 AM
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Barrel05 wrote:

If it means getting at the ball trhen you will need your runners to blitz because a linerat or a blitzer usually doesn't have enough MA and AG and no Dodge skill to get at that ball carrier. Strip Ball is great on very mobile players, it's not very usefull on linerats and storm vermin because they will rarely be in a position to use it.
Half die blocks when you have block really aren't that risky! Especially with strip ball your chances of success are big enough to give it a shot.

Spazzfist - Oct 20, 2007 - 10:04 AM
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TuernRedvenom wrote:

Half die blocks when you have block really aren't that risky! Especially with strip ball your chances of success are big enough to give it a shot.

I wholeheartedly agree, but be careful with that! I have had people go ballistic when I suggest that it is sometimes okay to make those dodgy blocks! Smile

Barrel05 - Oct 20, 2007 - 08:55 PM
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I can see what your saying, but i tend to lean towards Sidestep and fend for my runners, and maybe diving tackle as well. The MA doesn't pose a problem that much as most teams in my league have low movement.

Cramy - Oct 21, 2007 - 06:46 PM
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I have to agree with Tuern with Strip Ball. You need SB one or two Gutter Runners, as they are the ones who can get to the ball carrier. Give them Leap and Wrestle as well, and they are great at getting the ball on the ground. Then having a GR with Big Hand, Leap and other skills will allow you to recover the ball.

Like Tuern said, your linerats and blitzers will usually not be able to get to the ball carrier.

Also agree with Spazz. Don't throw your GRs at the ball carrier with half die blocks all the time. You have to time that move. Do it when it counts, and you have a reroll. When it counts is when you will either stop the score against you, or you can take advantage of the lose ball by picking-it up after and securing it, or score. Timing is important here.

SteffenS - Oct 22, 2007 - 04:18 AM
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Actually I wouldnt be so afraid to put my GR stripballer in there. If he has either block or wrestle, there is only around 18,5% chance of your GR falling over on a ½ die roll, if you have a reroll left. If you don't there is still "only" around 30% chance that your GR falls down. Now with Strip Ball on your GR you relieve your opponent of the ball more then 4 out of 5 times (again with a reroll on the blitz) on your ½ die blitz. I for one like those odds.

After 4 matches this is how my Rats have evolved:
1xSV
1xSV with guard
1xGR with Big hand (next skill leap)
1xGR with Strip Ball (next skill Wrestle nomatter what I roll)
1xGR with Block (next skill sidestep)
1xGR with Block (next skill sidestep)
1xThrower
1xLineman with Kick
5xLineman (no skills)
After a rather difficult start (one loss and two ties) I'm on the right track and won the last match 4-2 (against a highelf team)

Barrel05 - Oct 22, 2007 - 07:16 PM
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I went with BH which sort of worked, he was in position to pick up the ball in a tackle zone, but didn't have to. Am regretting it though cause after the game my best Gutter Runner with Dodge Block Leap and Side Step got AG+1. So BH was kind of a waste, but who knew i'd get AG+1! I chose to keep the AG+1 because it will help with leap, and means he can go into enemy TZ's get the ball leap then dodge. I have another GR with D B Sidestep Diving Tackle and MA-1, the MA-1 creates a dilemma as to what to do with him next?

Spazzfist - Oct 22, 2007 - 07:33 PM
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Don't regret the Big Hand, in some ways it is even better now! Now this guy is even more adept at dodging into multiple tackle zones, scooping up the ball on a 2+ and getting back out again! Give this boy Leap and you have a real monster on your hand!

Barrel05 - Oct 22, 2007 - 10:44 PM
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My Leap guy got AG+1, the BH guy is still only AG4 thats why i feel BH was wasted. The AG+1, will now do what i intended BH to do.

Spazzfist - Oct 23, 2007 - 06:38 AM
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I still fail to see how this is a waste. The Big Hand poses a different kind of threat than the leaper does now. And who is to say that both of them will last through the game. If you only have one of these kinds of players it is easier to defend against, but with two of them - it will be a nightmare!

Remember even with onoly two tackle zones, the Big Hand guy is going to pick up the ball easier than the Leaper. The big difference is that the Leaper will be able to get into tighter spots more easily.

Cramy - Oct 23, 2007 - 07:09 AM
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Definitely not a waste. You now have two real menaces to get the ball anywhere on the ground. That's BIG. Which one of them will your opponent try to kill? If they target one, the other one will get the ball and score. And vice-versa. The more threats you have on the field, the more likely it is that some of them will be on the pitch and cause mayhem.

The BH guy does need leap now though.

Work these two guys in tandem. The BH guy leaps on the ball (which is probably surrounded by opponents), pick-up the ball, dodges out, and hands-off/passes to the AG5 guy. Then the AG5 guy dodges around or leaps over the defence to dash towards the end-zone. The Block/Dodge/Side Step GRs and any other player that you have available move in to provide protection for the AG5 guy if he didn't make it to the end-zone.

Barrel05 - Oct 23, 2007 - 09:32 PM
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I was goin to go with Horns, but went the BH route after getting the AG+1, i wish i hada went with horns instead.

Spazzfist - Oct 24, 2007 - 06:24 AM
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Barrel05 wrote:

I was goin to go with Horns, but went the BH route after getting the AG+1, i wish i hada went with horns instead.

But you said before....

Barrel05 wrote:

Any way you look at it guy, you are way better off this way. But I think Cramy hazs laid it out very well as to how you now have an awesome tag-team threat. But you can always lament about the horns if you still don't want to listen to reason! Smile

Barrel05 - Oct 25, 2007 - 01:37 AM
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The reason he didn't have to is I have a thrower with AG4 and Block, and now that my best GR has AG5 the BH guy probably isn't gunna be in a position to get the ball unlees these two get taken out.