NAF World Headquarters :: View topic - Shamefull way to win a match...?

NAF World Headquarters

Strategy and Tactics - Shamefull way to win a match...?

dwarfcoach - Apr 30, 2003 - 12:40 PM
Post subject: Shamefull way to win a match...?

"I beat them last night with my Dwarfs by using a very shamefull tactic: Gaining the ball, running up to the endzone and then staying there while battering the enemy players so that I can win near the end of the half giving my opponent not enough time to score.... "

Is this a shamefull way to win or perfectly acceptable use of the rules?

I personally am a bit ashamed to admit to the fact that it was me who perpertrated such a thing but I did it in reaction to the way a regular opponent played me "Fight fire with fire".

Fair or Foul?

aerofool - Apr 30, 2003 - 01:04 PM
Post subject:

Yes, it's acceptable. Actually teams like Chaos and Dwarfs really can rely on this tactic to see em through. I admit it isn't any fun on the other side of the ball, but as an experienced coach you should have at least a plan or 2 to counter.

Agentrock - Apr 30, 2003 - 01:09 PM
Post subject:

It depends.
I personally hate the tactic...there have been many games where the opponent has done it against me while my team suffered at not being able to get to the ball carrier while his team stomped mine into the ground. It makes for a poor looking and playing game for the team getting squashed IMO.
But then I've used the tactic...not intending to pummel what remains of the opponent's team on the field...but to use up time and score before they get close enough to be a threat.

It's a commonly used tactic...if you know you are playing against a player that uses it regularly then "fight fire with fire". It's a good debatable question...one that really doesn't have a answer of right or wrong. Just depends on what you as a player needs to do to win a game.

skummy - Apr 30, 2003 - 01:40 PM
Post subject:

Absolutely fair. Dwarves just don't have the movement to play a speed game, and if they try to do so, they're likely to lose.

Now, gittish behavior would be fouling a team on turn 8 of the second half, so you can send it into overtime and foul the 3 remaining members some more. Not that I would ever do that... often.

Deathwing - Apr 30, 2003 - 01:51 PM
Post subject:

Clock management is perfectly acceptable. It's completely different if you're sitting on a 3-0 lead or something and opting not to score while destroying his team, but to run the clock so that your opponent hasn't got the time to level it or win it is fine IMO.

dwarfcoach - Apr 30, 2003 - 03:11 PM
Post subject:

Ok, so it seems that it is acceptable in 'extenuating circumstances' but then it really has to come to the crunch then:

Is tournament play 'extenuating circumstances'? I have not yet played an official NAF match to establish my team rating and that would be pretty important to me...

Dave - Apr 30, 2003 - 03:41 PM
Post subject:

Fair to me. I would tell my opponent to try and get the ball. If he doesn't, I won't score, If he does, I'll score after a turn or two.

Deathwing - Apr 30, 2003 - 05:08 PM
Post subject:

If you're playing for NAF rankings and you leave your opponent a couple of turns to score when you could close out the game by clock control then, well, you're a better man than I am Gunga Din! Very Happy

kjonesin - Apr 30, 2003 - 08:43 PM
Post subject:

everyone here has already said what needs to be said. It's perfectly acceptable, and very smart, it's just kinda evil if you're already up 3/4 to 0.

snew - Apr 30, 2003 - 08:59 PM
Post subject:

I don't like the tactic but it's legit. That said, I don't mind it in terms of clock control and winning the game. I think it's absolutelty deplorable to not score just so you can keep hitting the last few players your opponent has left and fouling the ones that are already down.

Mordredd - May 01, 2003 - 04:41 AM
Post subject:

I have been on both sides of the tactic many times before. It's a perfectly acceptable tactic, especially for slow teams such as Dwarfs and Undead. If your opponent lets you get into this position, then it's his own fault and he deserves everything he gets. If he can't force you to score, then he can always run away or leave his players lying on the floor. This happens to be a quite effective way to beat Elves and Skaven.

Doubleskulls - May 01, 2003 - 05:32 AM
Post subject:

Play the clock!

Admittedly not enjoyable if you are on the wrong end of it, but tough its a good tactic to win the game.

skummy - May 01, 2003 - 06:59 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Snotsngrots: I think it's absolutelty deplorable to not score just so you can keep hitting the last few players your opponent has left and fouling the ones that are already down.

If it helps any, I only did that with my Orcs against what was then the #1 casualty hunting coach in my league. Wink

Freakin' Dwarves...

Tutenkharnage - May 01, 2003 - 07:00 AM
Post subject:

"Playing the clock" is as cheesy as it gets, and I personally look down on any coach who does it. I can win the game WITHOUT playing the clock, and I do. Routinely. If you can't, you aren't a capable defensive coach, plain and simple.

-Chet

skummy - May 01, 2003 - 07:09 AM
Post subject:

Chet, in the past I would have agreed with you, but too many games have slipped out of my hands when I take a score against Elves and give them a chance to break back. If it comes down to passing up potential star player points for a sure win, I'll take the win every time.

JJB - May 01, 2003 - 11:20 AM
Post subject:

I will add that when my elven team is being ripped apart, I don't see why I should score right away and get myself finished off instead of forcing my opponent to run around me for a few more turns before going onto the endzone.

dwarfcoach - May 02, 2003 - 08:43 AM
Post subject:

It seems most people agree then. My opponant in question has a Lizardman team with a skink who has sure feet and leap which means he can score in 2 turns and my slow-ass dwarfs have little or no chance of catching him. So I hovered around by his endzone a bit before scoring so as to avoid 'Speedy Skink' scoring in the last couple of turns....

dwarfcoach - May 02, 2003 - 08:46 AM
Post subject:

Doh, that should read "sprint and leap".... Embarassed

smeborg - May 02, 2003 - 05:26 PM
Post subject:

It's absolutely fair. That's the way the game's played.

"Bashy" teams rely on it to get their regulation 1-0 or 2-1 wins.

Without this tactic, the game would favour the Agility teams, instead of being approximately balanced.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

dwarfcoach - May 03, 2003 - 05:10 PM
Post subject:

Erm, yes it was 1-0... (was almost 2-0 as I verchally got away with it in the first down as well)

Auciello - May 04, 2003 - 10:55 PM
Post subject: Re: Shamefull way to win a match...?

dwarfcoach wrote:

In NFL football, controlling the ball and the clock are key.

In Blood Bowl, it's much the same.

You do what you must to win.

Why give your opponent the ball back so he can tie it? If he can't get the ball off you, that's not your problem. There is nothing unfair about it at all.

Wadedidit - May 07, 2003 - 06:21 PM
Post subject:

I really hate this tactic, can't ban it though, would if I could.
I lost a final because of it, Score was 1-1 and there was a pitch invasion and I had five players KOed. Thats OK, be when the opponent picks up the ball and runs down for what should have been a two turn TD stayed until the last turn of the game and scored to win the final. Remembering that it is a game and supposed to be fun, how is that a good game? It sucked to lose the final in that way.
I had a sweet revenge though, the very next final, same teams this time I ran down to the endzone and hammered his team off the pitch winning the game 2-1 and destroying his team, I call that Karma. So if you do it, don't be pissed off if history comes back to bite you.

dwarfcoach - May 07, 2003 - 07:46 PM
Post subject:

Hey man, I was only doing it 'cause it was done to me first!!

I do feel a bit bad about it and would never so it in a friendly and not normally in a league game but he did it to me the last league game we played and then was showing off to others about how he beat me.... (that bit really got my goat, I had to get him back)

After reading what you guys had to say I do feel alot better about my actions though, seems it was a good idea to join up after all (even if I still have not recieved my dice or membership.................)

Wadedidit - May 07, 2003 - 08:18 PM
Post subject:

Its whether you do it again that counts. Like I said, Karma will come around, or Nuffle.

Black Dice are cool, thanks Babs!

Dave - May 08, 2003 - 03:03 AM
Post subject:

still, if you don't attempt to get to the ball carrier I wouldn't score the TD.

coachblacknife - May 09, 2003 - 05:20 AM
Post subject:

The BBowl GT was won using this tactic. Whether one believes it is fair or not, it's as legal as Fouling. It's a part of the game, albeit one that may leave a nasty taste.

If the team has enough control of the game to hover near the endzone and their opponent CANNOT sack the ball carrier, well in many ways that's the same as an Orc team beating on [insert team here] instead of moving the ball from their own half.

So, does it matter then where the ball is if it's not being moved? I get the impression it's less savoury if a TD is one Move action away...

dwarfcoach - May 09, 2003 - 05:33 AM
Post subject:

Well I suppose it is a very cirmcumstancial thing. In my circumstance I would not have done it but for the fact that he had a skink that can score in 2 turns and I would've had no chance to catch him if I had scored and let the game continue for the two remaining turns. I would not normally play that way (especially with Dwarfs) but for that unfortunate fact combined with the fact he had done it to me with the self same Skink racing off so I could not reach him in 2 turns then beating up on my with his Saurus....

Dave - May 09, 2003 - 05:50 AM
Post subject:

How about the tactic of fouling the last 5 turns of the game, even in the turn you will (hopefully for you, not for your opponent) score the equalizer ?? Evil or Very Mad

happened to a mate of mine.

Doubleskulls - May 09, 2003 - 10:22 AM
Post subject:

Dave wrote:

How about the tactic of fouling the last 5 turns of the game, even in the turn you will (hopefully for you, not for your opponent) score the equalizer ?? Evil or Very Mad

Then laugh your head off when they get sent off and don't score, so failing to win the game...

Mordredd - May 09, 2003 - 11:50 AM
Post subject:

Happened to my opponent in the league semi once. Very Happy

Wanted to win AND kill me. Sad

Would have done it too if he'd resisted that turn 8 foul. Very Happy

Instead he lost 1-0 in extra time. We laughed for a week. Twisted Evil

Dave - May 09, 2003 - 04:36 PM
Post subject:

he managed the draw Evil or Very Mad

but I think I'll get him next Twisted Evil

Auciello - May 09, 2003 - 11:31 PM
Post subject:

I can't believe there's even a debate about this.

If a game is tied, there are four turns left, and you are receiving, why in the world would you score in two turns and give your opponent a chance to come back?

That's just stupid.

If you hang on to the ball and drain the clock, it's a legitimate tactic.

I do it when I must, and I expect other coaches to do it, too. If anyone ever complained to me about it, I'd probably laugh and tell the guy to stop whining and come up with a strategy to get the ball.

He who controls the ball controls the game.

Valen - May 10, 2003 - 01:07 AM
Post subject:

I agree, with my elves I score in two turns about 95% of the team, so if a dwarf coach left me 4 turns too score an equaliser I would laugh very hard!

dwarfcoach - May 12, 2003 - 05:05 PM
Post subject:

Ok then, I will have to confirm to my moaning opponant that the general consensus is:

" Tough, you need to make sure you do not let yourself get into that situation in the first place!"

Cool, thanks guys....

BenArd - May 15, 2003 - 08:23 AM
Post subject:

I had this done to me. I don't generally mind but i was a bit p!ssed off because my opponent was using an established Norse team and i was playing my second game with a lizardman team. He got the ball and stopped 1 sqaure away frmo the endzone and proceeded to spend 4 turns kicking the sh!te out of my team.

This was added to the fact that in turn 2 of the game he had managed to kill 3 of my players and SI 1 (including the skink who i had only just got sure hands for, and which the apothecary failed to save Evil or Very Mad

)

dwarfcoach - May 16, 2003 - 03:00 AM
Post subject:

Ok, now that kind of behaviour is well off! I think there is no need for that kind of activity, just if it is a really close game and it makes the difference between a drawer or a win....

Zevarin - May 19, 2003 - 01:08 PM
Post subject:

My tactic against this is to try and turn the tables.
I had a Norse coach try that on me (While I was playing my Norse team), I couldn't get to the ball carrier. So I tried the second best thing, pick the most valuable player he has (his thrower in this case... I couldn't get to the blitzers) and focus on killing him. Light him up and foul, foul, foul. You start hurting even a few of his players and he'll score. It doesn't take much to make it not worth while. Razz

. He scored in only one extra turn.

Didacsoy - Sep 19, 2003 - 02:30 PM
Post subject:

My brother will never forget the lesson he learned with that tactic! He was playing orcs vs skaven in a semi. It was a 1-1 tie and he had the ball on one of his blitzers a square away from skaven's end zone for the last four turns!. There were two of us watching the game as the rats got blocked, blitzed, fouled, stripped, squeezed and the like just for fun and for the sake of it. We all knew that the skaven's coach was holding a random event card and we all also knew (apart from my brother, of course) what card it was (what I still don't know is how all three of us could keep our poker-face perfectly sculpted that the case required). Poor skavens didn't have a chance of getting to the orc blitzer (only four of them in the field, all linerats!), and it was a desperate situation for their coach. Then it all happened like flowing:
In turn eight, my brother went on blocking and blitzing anything with a furry skin and finally said: "I'm not fouling you because I could be sent off and my MASTER PLAN could get frustrated!". then he slowly took his blitzer and went to move the last sqare saying: "that's where the Rats end!!!" and then, very nicely, my friend (skaven's coach) went: "Pop!" and showed the card he was holding: yes, you guessed, Burst Ball!!!
You should have seen my brother's face (I'm still laughing as I write this down). The game was a tie and, of course the saven scored in the extra-time thus giving them access to the finals and a valuable lesson to my little brother.

Wow! It was a long one! But we still laugh at it (a year and a half ago) and the skaven coach got the trophy at last.

I don't mind it if that tactic is used on me, because I think it is a coach's duty to prevent his opponent from doing so. But certainly it is not a nice thing when you get caught with it.

Cheers.
DIEGUITO

Khaine - Sep 19, 2003 - 02:41 PM
Post subject:

So in a match where sportsmanship counts, would t6his be frowned on. While I agree it's a tactic I don't think poiunding a team into the dirt for extra turns is exactly sportmanlike in a traditional sense.

Doubleskulls - Sep 22, 2003 - 03:32 AM
Post subject:

Khaine wrote:

I'd say delaying to win (i.e. to go 2-1 up) is fine. Delaying to go 2 more in front isn't.

Thadrin - Sep 22, 2003 - 03:38 AM
Post subject:

Its cheesy as hell. Its boring, no fun and - unfortunately - sometimes a very sensible tactic. I try to keep my use of it to a minimum, as it can hurt you...I once lost a game when I tried to stall one turn against Woodies with Orcs. I was SURE my ball carrier was secure. Jammy Wardancer tho...and I ended up 2-0 down instead of on equal footing.

As has been said...if you're delaying to keep a win intact for a couple of turns then its OK.

SuM - Sep 22, 2003 - 04:06 AM
Post subject:

There is Playing Dirty, and there is Cheating...

This tactic is Playing Dirty. If a player ain't playing Dirty, then maybe he/ she should be playing Chess or Checkers...

- Ever see a Death Roller mash a team, turning it into "Road Kill"??? Not a pretty sight...
- Ever see a Wizard turn a player into a Frog or see Lightning hit???
Dirty, but extremely FUNNY, if you are not on the receiving end of it...

Letzzz say-
In League play, one of the other teams has a Kick-Ass player that is high in SPP, we will call him or her "Mr./ Mz. TouchDown". If you have the chance to Gank Mr. TouchDown, and you don't, you must want him to run circles around you and you must like losing games...

I'm not a player that is into a lot of Fouling, but I do my share, but mainly near the end of my Matches... "PayBacks are a Be-otch!!!"

Magier - Sep 23, 2003 - 03:25 AM
Post subject:

*hehe* funny. Some people claim they "play dirty" if they stall but in the same sentence they whine and bitch if you surround their top player with your own and let a Dirty Player beat him to a bloody pulp in a foul. Razz

noodle1978uk - Sep 23, 2003 - 03:37 AM
Post subject:

In my opinion anyone who thinks running down the clock is "cheesey" or "dirty" just hasn't got the idea that Blood Bowl is - after all, a strategy game...

Why isn't fouling "cheesey" - "No fair - he caused casualties so I couldn't score!"

Why not pushing off the pitch with frenzy instead of - well not? "No fair - he pushed my players off so I couldn't score!"

Playing down the clock when you need to (or even when you don't for vindictive people Wink

) is a FAIR, GOOD and honourable tactic.

If someone plays the clock against me - they are showing me the greatest respect - they KNOW I might be able to score...

If someone scores early and could have held on - stalling - and then I score back - I consider that player tactically not as good and I would also feel like I "got away with it"

Blood Bowl is not about mercy! Do what you can to win! Why do people insist that doing everything you can to win within the rules is somehow cheesey? Why should I give my opponent an opportunity I don't need to? Thats just dumb!!!

I'd better shut up now or I'll get into a frenzy of ranting Wink

But this issue REALLY annoys me. If "you have to score if you can" ever became an official rule I would never play in a tournament again - not least because you can still "abuse" that.

Grr!

Very Happy

noodle1978uk - Sep 23, 2003 - 03:41 AM
Post subject:

Mordredd wrote:

Happened to my opponent in the league semi once. Very Happy

Wanted to win AND kill me. Sad

Would have done it too if he'd resisted that turn 8 foul. Very Happy

Instead he lost 1-0 in extra time. We laughed for a week. Twisted Evil

ROFL!! That would be Joe Byers wouldn't it Very Happy

Magier - Sep 23, 2003 - 03:42 AM
Post subject:

Oh, I'd never say someone has to score immediately when he could, but I've seen people stall a game for a complete half which makes playing the game somehow quite pointless, no?

If I play the game for 2 hours, I want to have fun at it.
Setting up my SF/Guard Dwarves in a cage and wait til we run out of turns isn't my idea of a fun way to spend my time. :p

noodle1978uk - Sep 23, 2003 - 03:51 AM
Post subject:

No.

Player in our league resularly stalls for a half - IF HE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT!

Which I think is the point.

I like playing elves - I don't go around saying I wish hard teams were banned... Well not always Very Happy

Tackledummy - Oct 21, 2003 - 07:06 PM
Post subject:

I'm gonna group myself in with the 'Oh my god I can't believe people think this is cheesy' train of thought.

Slow grinding teams have to play to their strengths, just as fast teams do. For fast teams this is the ability to score in 2 turns, sometimes even less. For slow grinding teams this is the ability to slowly send the opposition into the injury box and therefore allow them a chance to score. Why would you deliberately handicap yourself by denying yourself time to hurt the opposition, why would you play into their game?

Coaches of fast teams who think this is a cheesy tactic should take a good look at the teams that employ it. To say slow grinding teams should not use this tactic is like saying fast teams should not use the full movement allowance on their movement 8 and 9 players. Simply because a slow team can not compete with this, they can not get the ball and therefore that would make it cheesy according to the arguements in the negative i've heard in this thread.

In terms of stating that when a slow team has an opportunity to score a touchdown they should do so is also ludicrous. One of the tactics of fast teams if they get into a bit of trouble while playing defence is to allow the opposition to score so they can get players out of the KO bin and quickly put another point on the board before Halftime or Fulltime. Why, as a slow grinding player, would you give in to this tactic? Why play the game how the opposition wants to play it, once again, the idea of winning a game is to play to your strengths as opposed to your opposition's.

Of course there are situations where it seems a bit over the top to use it, as already outlined, wanting a win and the injuries too, beating on newbies etc. If you believe that this is a dishonourable tactic then I've got an old cliche for you. Nice guys always come last, especially in Bloodbowl. If you value being nice and, some would say, 'honourable' over winning then by all means ignore what the majority of people on this thread have stated, but if you're in it for the win, I say don't score till their injured bin is full.

Zombie - Oct 25, 2003 - 08:03 PM
Post subject:

Well said!

TuernRedvenom - Dec 28, 2003 - 03:28 AM
Post subject:

Why, why, why do ppl think this is cheesy? Even with dark elves I try to delay scoring as long as possible so I can:
a) kick the crap out of other sissy teams longer
b) deny the hard hitting (= slow) teams turns to score back
c) it forces slower teams to keep a few players back to force you to score -> hence less hitting power on the line of scrimmage

But then again dark elves play dirty so maybe I'm wrong?

Larthos - Apr 27, 2004 - 04:56 PM
Post subject:

You know, it occurs to me that nearly every team has some sort of tactic that coud, under the right circumstances, be considered cheesy. However, does that mean that we shouldn't allow (for example) thrown players, regenerating players, or hail mary/diving catch combos?

Of course not, but each of those and many more have been blasted by someone in the past. The fact that some teams are set up for brutality (such as hit them till they fall, then foul) and slow tactics (such as the clock game) is just another thing for coaches to learn how to defend against.

If someone is playing tactics that you don't have a response for, then you had better do your homework before you play them again. That, or just be ready to mark down another 'L'.

Of course not everyone will agree with me, but hey... that's what discussion is for, yes?

redjack - Apr 27, 2004 - 08:04 PM
Post subject:

Tutenkharnage wrote:

The only problem I have with that thought is: IF I'm not a capable defensive coach, then I would have a problem keeping you from getting to my ball carrier and thus keeping me from playing the clock.

In other words, if you can't stop me from running out the clock, then perhaps you're not a capable coach*...

Is a slow moving cage also "playing the clock"? I play orcs, and while they're capable of scoring in a turn or three (okay, three or four), sometimes I mix up the offense and go for the slow grind.

Sometimes you just have to run out the clock to win the game. (On the other side of the spike, running out the clock to beat on an already beaten team IS just wrong. I'm just arguing against total discrimination against this tactic under any circumstances.)

*(which, btw - I know you are. I saw you play at the TKC, fortunately not first hand! Smile

Nothing personal, just arguing my point... )

coach_McGinty - Aug 10, 2004 - 08:45 PM
Post subject:

What I think of people who deliberately use the stalling tactic can't be said in a public forum. Bloodbowl is one of the few games that I still play because the groups I play with are more into the spirit of the game than anything else. Its a rugby style game where the focus is on moving the ball forward and scoing not prancing about with the ball while the clock winds down. When I play someone who does this sort of thing I'm very tempted to peform a blitz action for real then follow up with a foul.

Zombie - Aug 10, 2004 - 09:01 PM
Post subject:

This game is based on football, and real football teams play the clock at the end of the game almost every time.

coach_McGinty - Aug 10, 2004 - 09:15 PM
Post subject:

not during the game only at the end of the entire match.

Zombie - Aug 10, 2004 - 09:54 PM
Post subject:

Or at the end of the first half. Anytime that they can make their drive last until the end of the half, they go for it. Same with Blood Bowl.

Ardendron - Aug 11, 2004 - 04:45 AM
Post subject:

Any Coach may play their own style!

I don´t like it to put a player in front of the end zone and wait until my last turn to score. I´ver never seen an open receiver in football waiting that the clock is running out. It is no problem to slow the game down. But IMO if there is a free way to the score (without making a dice role) the player wants to bring his name on the table!

Ardendron

jtrain31 - Sep 13, 2004 - 09:13 PM
Post subject:

I think the tactic is good in a tourney or league when there is a lot on the line, but I wouldn't use it in friendly matches

Grumbledook - Sep 22, 2004 - 05:33 PM
Post subject:

Tutenkharnage wrote:

Of course the flip side to this is, if the other guy was a good defensive coach you wouldn't be able to stall in the first place. Tit for tat.

One thing that bugs me is people who seem to insist that stalling automatically means that you are going to be maiming. If the other coach wants to sit off me I will happily hold my position.

The only game I think I sat there trying to get the hits in was the last game at the spike, though that was cause I needed a cas to get the extra 10 points.

Still I am a firm believer in the fact that if you defend well enough then the other team won't be able to stall against you. I can't remember a tournament game where i was stalled against tbh. I do say this in the exception of when taken a lot of casualties, then well its somewhat hard to defend well with less players. Though with that situation the other team could just as well score reset up and score on you again. KO pending etc