NAF World Headquarters
Rules Questions - Pushing players off field
jejaatin - May 07, 2003 - 06:27 AM
Post subject: Pushing players off field
I was wondering if there was any official ruling on the matter that if a player pushes another player off field and the crowd causes a casualty to the player pushed off, does that count as a casualty that is worth 2 SPPs or not. The LRB simply says : "If a player kills, seriously injures, or badly hurts an opposing player then they earn 2 Star Player points. The points are only earned if the player blocks an opponent or is blocked by an opponent himself. Casualties inflicted in any other way do not count for Star Player points."
Pushing a player off field is after all always a result of a block. I know it says that "if a player" but I was just wondering if there was any official ruling on this matter.
Melifaxis - May 07, 2003 - 08:41 AM
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My understanding is that no SPP's are gained.
Agentrock - May 07, 2003 - 09:17 AM
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Correct...no casualty points are gained and no skills can be used to modify the armor or injury rolls.
jmccubbin - May 07, 2003 - 09:47 AM
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However it does count for end of game FF roll modified by casualties caused.
skummy - May 07, 2003 - 10:00 AM
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Actually, that's in the hotlist to go under review by the BRRC. A lot of players (including myself) think that only casualties that gave SPP's should count for the FF modification rolls.
Dave - May 07, 2003 - 01:14 PM
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yeeeaaaah way to go skummy!!!
only cas caused by the team, not the rest
Darkson - May 07, 2003 - 02:24 PM
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Nah, all cas I "cause" coount. Blocks, pushes into crowd, fouls.
The crowd wants blood and blood I shall give them 
skummy - May 07, 2003 - 06:41 PM
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(All comments below should be prefaced by the warning that I am completely pissed at the moment.)
How about when a Trollslayer trips and kills himself? Should you get the fan credit for that?
Wadedidit - May 07, 2003 - 07:00 PM
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In my opinion the Player that blocks another player and pushes the opponent off the field (and causes a CAS) should gain a CAS for this as it was caused by a block.
Old_Man_Monkey - May 07, 2003 - 08:55 PM
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Quote:
(All comments below should be prefaced by the warning that I am completely pissed at the moment.)
Skummy, are you angry or loaded? 
Sputnik - May 08, 2003 - 02:38 AM
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Quote:
How about when a Trollslayer trips and kills himself? Should you get the fan credit for that?
I hope you feel better now, for I ...
..believe that these cas shoould also go into the count for ff etc! 
Your opponent kind of 'forced' you to make your slayer slip (why would you have done this then if you could have avoided it?). The crowd will appreciate these cas as well since it was good team effort to make you risk that, even if no SPP are earned. 
Another example: a player in scoring position gets blitzed and the rsult is a pushback. Next turn the player tries to dodge for the TD and fails, causing a cas. The fans will LOVE that, although no SPP for anyone...
Sputnik
Dave - May 08, 2003 - 03:07 AM
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thats true sput.
the block didn't do it, the crowd did (for Wadedidit)
Mordredd - May 08, 2003 - 04:27 AM
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True, it was the crowd that did it, but it was the blocking player that put him there so surely some credit is due?
As the LRB currently reads only injuries resulting from blocks are casualties, and only casualties give a bonus to FF rolls. That 'sprinting' Trollslayer is just an injury and doesn't count towards you casualty number.
Agentrock - May 08, 2003 - 07:01 AM
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In our league we currently count it for FF purposes.
skummy - May 08, 2003 - 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Old Man Monkey: Skummy, are you angry or loaded?
I was quite loaded last night. The bar down the street from work had a dollar beer night, and I was a bit too wobbly to drive home after. Posting here and on TBB was a way to get sober, though I felt obligated to give warning that my advice might not be 100%. Looking back, I can see how the "pissed" part could be taken either way... 
Tutenkharnage - May 08, 2003 - 02:48 PM
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Guys, the FF table says "casualty." Furthermore, it says "team inflicted," not "crowd inflicted." Casualties are defined in the book. They don't include crowd injuries.
But play it as you want, that's my motto
-Chet
Valen - May 09, 2003 - 03:00 AM
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We have a house rule which clears up the CAS gained.
If you simply push a player into the crowd and he is injured by the crowd = NO CAS
If you knock someone into the crowd on a starburst, roll for armour and injury with you player AND straight injury for the crowd, the worst injury counts! = IF YOU BREAK ARMOUR AND INJURE THE PLAYER + CAS, IF DONE BY CROWD = NO CAS
dwarfcoach - May 09, 2003 - 03:13 AM
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Heh Valan, thats a GREAT wayof doing it. Common sense and easy, I only wish other Blood Bowlers took your approach to the rules...
Nice one mate!
Darkson - May 09, 2003 - 01:37 PM
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That's how we first played the game, and it's how I think it should be.
Valen - May 10, 2003 - 12:56 AM
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I presume you have changed the way you play it then Darkson, if so, why?
Darkson - May 10, 2003 - 11:38 AM
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Mainly as I'm the only one in our group whose really into BB, and as there's no local leagues, my only BB games are now either PBeM or the occasional tournament, so I thought I better play by the "proper" rules.
westonwyse - May 10, 2003 - 10:07 PM
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skummy wrote:
How about when a Trollslayer trips and kills himself? Should you get the fan credit for that?
Of course. The NAF may care how the casualty was caused, but the fans don't.
skummy - May 11, 2003 - 05:00 PM
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I really don't like that kind of reasoning. Casualties from SPP blocks only makes accounting and analysis of the team's power level much easier.
Darkson - May 12, 2003 - 05:04 PM
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I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to say here, Skummy (no offence).
dwarfcoach - May 12, 2003 - 05:14 PM
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Ok, so I 'think' our friend skummy (?!) is attempting to like the casualty report as a way to tell how hard the team is. If that is true, then I have one thing to say......
"Erm, yeah, and since when did how hard a team is effect who wins...?"
Point in question, my Dwarfs Kazadors Kommando's took on the Perryville Punishers (Steve Morgans Halflings) and got beaten. Thats DWARFS vrs HALFLINGS for Gods sake.
He had loads of the little critters, knew exactly what he was doing and done it!
He has a HALFLING team.....
dwarfcoach - May 12, 2003 - 05:17 PM
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Sorry, forgot a vital part of that last message.....
skummy - May 12, 2003 - 08:10 PM
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Darkson: Okay, that wasn't the most coherent of posts... Let me put it like this. It's easy to tell how many casualties each team scored after the game if you only count SPP casualties. All you have to do is look and see how many new checks you have in the CAS box. With other ways, you have to remember whether the Apoth was used on a casualty, regeneration rolls and the like. CAS only for SPP's is just easier, and it eliminates the undeserved inflation from playing against teams like haflings, who are likely to hurt themselves tripping over their own feet.
dwarfcoach: 
Yeah, my name's Skummy - and I've been known to muck up Dwarves...
Darkson - May 14, 2003 - 05:33 PM
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Right, with you now.
Well, we never used to give team CAS for failed GFI, or dodges, though using our own reasoning we should have, and we never had a problem remembering the no. of cas, but if we did, we'd just stick a D10/D20 in the cas box and use that.
kalten - Jul 14, 2003 - 01:52 PM
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ok, so the whole thing about ff going up or down here about the casulties bit right?
ok - if you go to a wrestling match (wwf or something) the crowd doesn't give a damn about which guy (or girl) beats up on who, its all about the damage caused and in what way. If you see a normal wrestling match then it would get boring very quickly, however the guys out their know how to put on a show, therfore increasing intrest in them and when they wrestle - take the Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin - they are masters at the show aspect of the whole thing.
Anyway - what I'm leading to is the 'Show' Bloodbowl is not an olympic sport - it's a wrestling match with a ball! The fans are there to see a glorified fight between their favorite stars - just read anything about this in the stories and funny little quotes all through the rulebooks and mags.
sooooooo (getting to the long winded point) ANY casulties caused SHOULD be counted towards the fans enjoyment of the game as well as the touchdowns. If the fans got to beat up on the player, so much the better, they will be more likely to attend another match so they can do it again. Have a read through some of the optional rules in the mags you can get and find 'the fans are on the pitch rules'.
you still don't get any spps for crowd kills, but they are part of the fun and should be taken in the spirit of the game. - In my league we have a record of the most fans killed by players, why not add, number of players killed by the crowd? cool or what?
Dragonbait - Sep 13, 2003 - 12:30 AM
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very quickly, where in the book does it say no crowd injuries? Our league is warring over this right now. I agree, crowd injuries should not count towards SPPs, but I wanna be able to back it up by LRB reference.
Thanks
Bait
Darkson - Sep 13, 2003 - 07:43 AM
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Check out the wording for Cas Spp's on p.39, and then under Push Backs on p.11 "A player pushed of the field is beaten up by the crowd and must roll on the Injury table". So it's the crowd doing the beating, not the player.
kalten - Sep 15, 2003 - 12:08 PM
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As a supplement to my last post here,
In the LRP it does state 'Team Inflicted 2+' which, if taken by the letter of the rules, means that only Those Casulties the the players on the team caused count, though I have to disagree with Skummy over the 'only count the new spps column' as the player still caused a casulty, enough to cause a very special ability (the apothacary) to be used.
As I said we count all casulties, that makes it just as easy as counting thee spp column, but we feel it's a bit more fun for the crowd, and boy do we get cheers by the onlookers when a player dies to the crowd! 
hee hee