NAF World Headquarters
Strategy and Tactics - Lizardmen
Skull_Crusher - May 21, 2003 - 11:47 PM
Post subject: Lizardmen
Hi there,
Any valuable hints for playing Lizardmen. I am quite new to Blood Bowl and just kicked off a league with 12 teams.
Somehow my skinks seem to disappear for the second half, although I try to keep them out of the worst infights.
Thanx,
Skull_Crusher
dwarfcoach - May 22, 2003 - 12:36 AM
Post subject:
Buy some re-rolls right at the start!
You have the fastest players in the game (apart from ratty flavoured teams) so take advantage of it! When ever you have the ball run circles around your opponent, when you don't make sure you always dodge away from your oponents tackle zones: you cannot block what you are not touching! This will only leave your Saurus in contact and they are bloody hard!! If it turns into a punch up then you can concentrate on scoring....
Indigo - May 22, 2003 - 05:14 AM
Post subject:
although luck plays a part, I'd advise getting sure hands on as many skinks as possible, cos in my experience they are fine until you need that crucial pickup...
dwarf coaches tactics are fairly sound, but sometimes it's an idea to use the skinks to tie up players or tempt them into blocking when they are needed elsewhere. They are also good for fouling, being fairly abundant. Just always try and keep one or two left to score!
Skull_Crusher - May 22, 2003 - 07:39 AM
Post subject:
Indigo wrote:
They are also good for fouling, being fairly abundant. Just always try and keep one or two left to score!
Keeping them alive is the problem.
Would you really use sure hands, what about taking sure feet and let them advance as far out of the way as possible? Ideally in direction of the goal line.
In the league that I'm running, at the moment I have to choose a skill for a skink.
Skull_Crusher
emilio68it - May 22, 2003 - 07:59 AM
Post subject:
Let the skink aside to a saurus, i've played once (and lost 3-0) a lizzy team with 6 saurus, 3 on the scrimmage line and 3 aside of the skinks; it was hard.....
aerofool - May 22, 2003 - 08:00 AM
Post subject:
What line-up are you using?
I would start off first by trying to get as many Sauruses between your skinks and your opponents players as possible. Most wedge plays work well with this team (use your power players to open a gap for your weaker, yet much faster players to run through). Also, if you can help it try to avoid blocking with your skinks. It's just going to get them squished faster.
dwarfcoach - May 22, 2003 - 04:25 PM
Post subject:
Indigo Quote:
dwarf coaches tactics are fairly sound, but sometimes it's an idea to use the skinks to tie up players or tempt them into blocking when they are needed elsewhere.
absolutely! When the oponent has the ball then get the little green (or blue now...??) critters in the way all over. Use them to slow down the ball carrier, to prevent a successful break for the endzone and to cause a general nuisance of themselves while the hard-lizards on your team cause carnage.
A very nasty team with very few drawbacks, I was always put off doing them because of the mediocre models, but with the new plastic sets are availible, hmmmm conversions in order I think.
(ps, would a team of 'placcys' be legal in tournaments / bloodbowl?)
Mordredd - May 23, 2003 - 04:48 AM
Post subject:
Absolutely! "Placcys" are totally legal. The Undead team I took to the BB was almost entirely made up of converted Warhammer models. I only had 2 proper BB minis, and that's only because I had not managed to finish painting my converted mummies.
Indigo - May 23, 2003 - 11:15 AM
Post subject:
the only stipulation is that the mini is citadel
scratch built ones are a grey area, though would be accepted I think. Just steer clear of things like the shadowforge stuff in official tournies and you'll be ok
dwarfcoach - May 23, 2003 - 04:56 PM
Post subject:
Sweet!!
JJB - May 24, 2003 - 08:25 AM
Post subject:
I must say right away that I have never played Lizardmen, although I have played against them quite a few times.
I would play them in a combination of chaos/orc and wood elves' strategies.
By that I mean first of all buying at the very least 4-5 sauruses from the start, if not 6.
I would use four sauruses to put tackle zones on my opponents, forcing them to dodge away or even be forced to make risky 1 die blocks.
I would keep the 5th saurus as a back field blitzer (somehow replacing the chaos beastman, since both players have the same speed).
I would use the skinks like line wood elves: always keeping them away from my opponent, and using them for all ball handling operations indiscrimately. Skill improvements would be focused on block for most of my players (thus increasing the survival rate of the little guys), and I would give two or three of the remaining skinks sure hands. They would be spread around the pitch to have always ball pickers available, whether I'd be receiving, or picking the ball from the -knocked down- ball carrier.
One last skink would have catch to take the ball handed off to him by the ball pickers (he would replace more or less the wood elf catcher) when it'd be my turn to receive.
Mordredd - May 24, 2003 - 01:22 PM
Post subject:
The Lizardman team that won the League part of the Blood Bowl had 6 saurus (and 5 or 6 skinks?). The little guys were saved from being splattered across the pitch by the fact that I was too busy dealing with all those S4 players to really go after them. The fact that the team won 5/6 games is also indicative of their strength.
The Lizardman team I played in the BB Resurrection had less saurus more skinks and a kroxigor (the star player one if I remember correctly). I was using the same Undead team as in the Blood Bowl and crushed him easily. I would not have said that his game play was any worse either.
So 6 saurus in a starter team should serve you well.
skummy - May 24, 2003 - 03:44 PM
Post subject:
JJB: Your plan is missing two big elements. Skinks don't get general skills, so no easy Block or Sure Hands for them. Also, I've found the easiest way to beat Lizardmen is to mark their 1 agility players with linemen, who keep the Saurii from being able to dodge away. This lets the rest of my team concentrate on killing Skinks. Break Tackle is an essential Saurus skill. I'd reccomend getting it on at least two players.
Sputnik - May 26, 2003 - 02:49 AM
Post subject:
JJB wrote:
Quote:
I would use the skinks like line wood elves: always keeping them away from my opponent, and using them for all ball handling operations indiscrimately. Skill improvements would be focused on block for most of my players (thus increasing the survival rate of the little guys), and I would give two or three of the remaining skinks sure hands. They would be spread around the pitch to have always ball pickers available, whether I'd be receiving, or picking the ball from the -knocked down- ball carrier.
Like Skummy wrote, block and sure hands are general skills and you need a double to get these skills! Good luck, mate! 
A Saurus can be easily pinned down with a lineman (unless he has break tackle, of course). If you then spread out all your skinks, you will have ONE everywhere. If your opponent manages to take that one out (not that difficult), you will have NONE left in this area. 
Further, even if this skink manages to get the ball, how will you protect him? I would suggest to send them out in pairs instead...and you don't really need one everywhere. Skinks are fast enough that they can reach parts of the field without the need of placing them there...
With respect to the skink losses, some general remarks based on my experience: your roster should include at least 6 of them, and you should have an apo right from the start. Since you won't put all six skinks on the field at a time, you should have (some) replacements ready for the next drives...maybe try to adapt your tactics to your losses. If you need replacements, try to score fast or force your opponent to score (I know, easier said than done, but keep in mind). Then you may have more chances to get back k.o.ed skinks. If you can affort to stall for one turn, think about it. As a general rule, try to avoid direct contact with skinks where possible. Your opponent can only blitz once per turn. This doesn't work well against tacklers, but is always an option after you have done the important parts.
My general rule against ST3 tacklers: As long as you have a rr, get a second skink/saurus as an assist and make a one-die-block. You will fail a dogde in 33%, the same as the block (assuming your skink doesn't have block). However, if you block there a 33% chance to knock your opponent over as well, which won't happen if you only try to dodge... 
Best mode: the tackler is a cas and out
Worst case: you fail and your opponent can easily block your second skink as well... 
Saurus assists are therefore preferred
hope this helps a bit as a skink survival guide (SSG; can be easily attached to the tail for a short brainstorming inbetween the drives or while waiting for the handoff; a must for the modern BB skink)
Sputnik
JJB - May 27, 2003 - 02:58 AM
Post subject:
Sputnik wrote:
JJB wrote:
Quote:
I would use the skinks like line wood elves: always keeping them away from my opponent, and using them for all ball handling operations indiscrimately. Skill improvements would be focused on block for most of my players (thus increasing the survival rate of the little guys), and I would give two or three of the remaining skinks sure hands. They would be spread around the pitch to have always ball pickers available, whether I'd be receiving, or picking the ball from the -knocked down- ball carrier.
Like Skummy wrote, block and sure hands are general skills and you need a double to get these skills! Good luck, mate!
Sputnik
Yeah, I'm know to be very lucky. 
- and not to remember my LRB perfectly...
Skull_Crusher - Jun 01, 2003 - 09:40 AM
Post subject:
JJB wrote:
Sputnik wrote:
JJB wrote:
Quote:
I would use the skinks like line wood elves: always keeping them away from my opponent, and using them for all ball handling operations indiscrimately. Skill improvements would be focused on block for most of my players (thus increasing the survival rate of the little guys), and I would give two or three of the remaining skinks sure hands. They would be spread around the pitch to have always ball pickers available, whether I'd be receiving, or picking the ball from the -knocked down- ball carrier.
Like Skummy wrote, block and sure hands are general skills and you need a double to get these skills! Good luck, mate!
Sputnik
Yeah, I'm know to be very lucky.
- and not to remember my LRB perfectly...
6 Saurus are a MUST for Lizardman.
Lizards rule! 
By the way, one of my skinks has Diving Tackle now. I think it is a good think agains elfes.
Thank you all for your comments.
Skull_Crusher
Ironmokey - Nov 13, 2003 - 09:04 PM
Post subject: I've just finished my 11th game with lizardmen
I went with
6 Saurus
1 krox
4 skinks
2 rerolls and I think I started with a 3 ff
for my 11 games I was
9 . 1 . 1
What I've found is that the lizardmen team is incredibly powerful but also has several huge drawbacks.
1. the skinks are the only ones on your team that can pick up the ball if your opponent figures this out and goes after your lil guys the odds of you winning are severly reduced.
2. without TD's its really hard to get enough star player points for more than one roll per saurus ( if your lucky enough to get that even ).
At the end of my season I had 2 saurus with +15 sp ( one of which was dead the other had a s5 ) and another 2 saurus with skills block and the other with mighty blow. So after 11 games I had 2 saurus with 1 roll and 2 others with 2 rolls . If I had the ability to pick skills over again I think I would have gone for block with all of my saurus. Since your usually throwing a 2 dice block... that block skill really helps to lay out the other teams. Some of the people here have mentioned getting break tackle... since you might only ever get one skill with your player... I'd skip this skill in favor of block ... I can't count the times I've had to use my rr because I rolled 2 both down results....
As for the teams pluses....
Those skinks are fast as hell and you can usually score in 2 downs ( if the skinks pick up the ball ). Then you can also easily reverse side of the field and run a skink up either side and you have a very fightening offence.
Then there are the saurus s4 with a 9 amour big and nasty
.... if your recieving... go hard with them and take out anyone your opponent throws on the line.
.... if your recieving... throw skinks on the line, and leave your big guys and playing a power house team ( more than 2 s4 players ) throw skinks on the line, and leave your big guys off the line a big until you get the block skill. if your playing any other team ( s3 or lower ) load up the line with saurus and put the fear of the frog into em with several deep skinks to mob any player that makes it threw your lizard line.
just a few thoughts good luck to yeah,
Ciao,
Michael
Darkson - Nov 14, 2003 - 08:22 AM
Post subject:
the only Saurus on my team to earn enough SPP's for 2 skills got 2 doubles. His first I'd taken Stand Firm, and for the 2nd I took Frenzy.
Really wish I could go back and change that though
Doubleskulls - Nov 14, 2003 - 08:37 AM
Post subject:
Darkson wrote:
the only Saurus on my team to earn enough SPP's for 2 skills got 2 doubles. His first I'd taken Stand Firm, and for the 2nd I took Frenzy.
Really wish I could go back and change that though
Why? That sounds like a really nice combo.
As for development I'd follow these paths:
Skinks:
Offence: Catch, Sure Feet, Sprint (probably only need 2/3 of these)
Defence: Side Step, Diving Tackle (everyone else without doubles)
Doubles go on Strip Ball and/or Block. Their ability to run rings around is vital and getting the ball loose, even on a 1/2 dice block isn't that improbable.
Saurus have 2 development paths
Basher: Block, Guard, Mighty Blow/Piling On
Blitzer: Break Tackle, Tackle, Block
Doubles I'd take Frenzy or, if I've already got Break Tackle, Stand Firm or Dodge.
As a team I think 4 skinks on the pitch can be a little light, and leave you vulnerable to losing them all over a drive. So I'd probably want 5 - leaving either 6 Saurus or 5 Saurus and a Krox.
Tutenkharnage - Nov 14, 2003 - 09:22 AM
Post subject:
Doubleskulls wrote:
Saurus have 2 development paths
Basher: Block, Guard, Mighty Blow/Piling On
Blitzer: Break Tackle, Tackle, Block
Don't forget Tackle on either of these guys - but especially on the "bashers." Remember, you won't always be throwing blocks with these players. But the other team's shiftier players will almost always try running away from you.
-Chet
Doubleskulls - Nov 14, 2003 - 10:48 AM
Post subject:
Tutenkharnage wrote:
Doubleskulls wrote:
Saurus have 2 development paths
Basher: Block, Guard, Mighty Blow/Piling On
Blitzer: Break Tackle, Tackle, Block
Don't forget Tackle on either of these guys - but especially on the "bashers." Remember, you won't
always be throwing blocks with these players. But the other team's shiftier players will almost
always try running away from you.
-Chet
Well I'd give tackle to the blitzers, but it has to be a relatively low priority as Saurus are so lacking in skills. Maybe take it as the 3rd skill on a basher - but I think the hurty option will help more.
Tutenkharnage - Nov 14, 2003 - 12:04 PM
Post subject:
Somehow, I overlooked that. Must be the short work week
Cheers!
-Chet
Darkson - Nov 14, 2003 - 04:48 PM
Post subject:
Doubleskulls wrote:
Darkson wrote:
the only Saurus on my team to earn enough SPP's for 2 skills got 2 doubles. His first I'd taken Stand Firm, and for the 2nd I took Frenzy.
Really wish I could go back and change that though
Why? That sounds like a really nice combo.
Cos the git has developed an alarming to roll both down/both down on al his 2d blocks 
Shoggoth - Jan 25, 2004 - 12:16 AM
Post subject:
I just started a Lizardman team in a league, and I think I made a few mistakes in my initial team lineup (I'm pretty new at this stuff). All I had was the box set and one Krox, so I went with:
1 Krox
4 Saurus
7 Skinks
2 RR
1 FF
If I had to do it again, I'd ditch a skink and put it all in FF, so as to make more money and afford the skink and apot. sooner. I just pray that I can hold out long enough to afford some more Saurus for my team (and get some more freaking dedicated pickup rerolls!) 
Zombie - Jan 25, 2004 - 12:35 AM
Post subject:
If you've only played a couple of games, i recommend starting the team over. Starting with only 1 FF is that big of a mistake. You're team will never recover from that and always have lower FF than anybody else in your league.
Oh, and personally, i'd never start a lizardman team with a kroxigor. They're just too damn expensive.
Shoggoth - Jan 25, 2004 - 01:15 AM
Post subject:
I'm not sure that they'll let me start over, but since I got almost NO star player points in my first game (I've only played one) and I only made 20K (played frickin WE with 2 fan factor!) it would be worth it if I could. Part of the reason I put old Kroxi in is because I thought I would be playing Undead my first game, and trying to deal with the Mummies would be real rough with just 4 Saurus's.
Zombie - Jan 25, 2004 - 02:23 AM
Post subject:
Think of it this way. For the price of a kroxigor and one point of fan factor, you could instead have a saurus and a reroll. Which would you rather have?
Ask them if you can start over your team. I don't think it will be a problem. It wouldn't in any league i run. It would just mean one less game you get to play with the team to advance it and accumulate league points.
ScottNKnox - Jan 25, 2004 - 08:23 PM
Post subject:
Shoggoth, I started my first team ever, lizzies, with the exact same line up you did 3 months ago. Lossed my first 3 games and would have lost my first 5 if it wasn't for an ill timed illegal procedure by my 4th opponent. Also, dead Krox in game two. I've now recovered from my ignorance and have won 5 of my last 6 games with 8 skinks, 6 sauras, a krox, and that most wonderful of inventions, an apothecary. GET THE APOTH ASAP! I agree with Zombie, see if you can restart and take an apoth and as much FF as you can. The extra 10k per game you can get with the larger gate and the odd extra rr from the K.O. table or two is huge over the long haul.
If your league will let you proxy figures, see if you can get the 5th sauras in you starting line up as well. The guys in my league HATE them. You could trade the apoth and a FF for a RR but the apoth has saved my krox and my st 5 sauras more than once each so I wouldn't trade him for anything.
If I had it to do again, I'd go:
5 Sauras - 400k
6 Skinks - 360k
Apoth - 50k
2 RR - 120k
7 FF - 70k
Total 1000k (if my calculator can be trusted)
Good luck to you, my fellow Lizard leader!
Zombie - Jan 25, 2004 - 09:41 PM
Post subject:
It's not a good idea to start with an apothecary. Much better to have one more reroll and buy the apoth after game 1, because then the reroll costs double but the apoth doesn't.
Shoggoth - Jan 26, 2004 - 10:54 AM
Post subject:
Fortunately, the league commish was willing to let me trade in a Skink for 6 more fan factor without making me restart the team, on the grounds that it helps everybody! I have enough money now that I will be buying an apothecary before the first regular season game to prevent player deaths (no deaths were allowed in preseason) and maybe get the contract for Silibili.
Which leads me to another question--Star Players. As a lizardman team, there is only one SP I can have, and the way the commish is doing things people have to bid for SP contracts this Wednesday. If you get the contract, you can freeboot him/her as usual, but if not, you can't get that person at all. If noone has the contract, then you can pay DOUBLE the listed cost to freeboot him for a game. I don't think it'll be worth it to try to buy Silibili's contract (especially as there are 4 lizardman teams in the league), but then I've never used SPs before, and I'll definitely be able to afford to freeboot him in the later season games where he could be really useful. What do you guys think of SP's? Are they worth worrying about? How much would you pay? The bidding is going in 1K increments, BTW.
Zombie - Jan 26, 2004 - 02:52 PM
Post subject:
Star players aren't worth anything, except in playoff games. And even then, in the case of lizardmen, i wouldn't worry about it as he's not very good.
It will be good enough if you can just max out on your positional players before the season is over. If you can manage that, then buy rerolls next, they'll help you more than star players.
Oh and, Silibili isn't the only star player you can get. There's also Thrud and Zara the Slayer.
Darkson - Jan 26, 2004 - 03:23 PM
Post subject:
Maybe just bid 1K, in case the other lizard coaches don't bother.
Zombie - Jan 26, 2004 - 03:37 PM
Post subject:
1k or 10k is the same thing, so i guess bid 10k then. But 1 of the other 3 will probably offer more anyway.
Tutenkharnage - Jan 27, 2004 - 06:38 AM
Post subject:
I don't think Lizardmen can hire Zara. Thrud is good to go, however. But as you have a young Lizardman squad, follow Zombie's advice: build your squad this season. Next season, when you have a better feel for the game and a more developed team, you can make your move for Silibili if you think he's worth the price.
-Chet
Zombie - Jan 27, 2004 - 12:40 PM
Post subject:
I thought Zara could be hired by any team. Maybe i'm wrong on this?
Melifaxis - Jan 27, 2004 - 12:52 PM
Post subject:
Human, Amazon, Norse, and Dwarf according to the playercard
Tutenkharnage - Jan 27, 2004 - 02:53 PM
Post subject:
Yep. Checked this tidbit at home during my lunch break. Human, Amazon, Norse, and Dwarf.
-Chet
Zombie - Jan 27, 2004 - 05:50 PM
Post subject:
Sorry for making you check!
ScottNKnox - Jan 27, 2004 - 06:03 PM
Post subject:
Zombie wrote:
It's not a good idea to start with an apothecary. Much better to have one more reroll and buy the apoth after game 1, because then the reroll costs double but the apoth doesn't.
You obviously have better luck with your winnings rolls than I do, Zombie. 
I understand your point about using your starting money on FF, I started with 1 and after 15 games have managed to get up to a whopping 4.
However, I got CREAMED my first game and would have loved to have had an apoth. Not arguing with you, just he would have helped me out from game one.
I'm starting a Nurgle's team and I'm loading that bad boy down with FF. Leason learned.
Zombie - Jan 27, 2004 - 08:34 PM
Post subject:
The only way it could be worth it to have an apothecary on game 1 is if a player worth 60k or more dies in that game. And even then, the apoth might roll a 1! And even if he doesn't, you're just breaking even if he saved a skink.
If you don't get a 60k player dead in that game, then you've just forfeited the opportunity of buying a reroll at 60k, and you'll have to pay 120k for it later, so in essence you've just lost 60k by getting the apothecary right away.
Tutenkharnage - Jan 28, 2004 - 06:35 AM
Post subject:
Zombie wrote:
Sorry for making you check!
Checking is good. We all forget little things. We all get hazy on details over time. The proof is simple: I wasn't absolutely positive about Zara's team list until I went home and checked it myself!
We'd all benefit from reading the entire rulebook periodically. Especially me
-Chet