NAF World Headquarters
North America - Bidding open until Jan 31st North American Team Championship
Notorious_jtb - Dec 28, 2011 - 01:25 PM
Post subject: Bidding open until Jan 31st North American Team Championship
NA Team Championship Request for Bids
Following the success of the second NAF World Cup in 2011 we are planning to hold the first North American Team Championship in 2013.
We also want to follow the bidding model to determine the host location for the event each time. The vision is a once every four year event, two years removed from the NAF World Cup each time.
1) Bids must only be submitted by email.
Northamericanteamchampionship@gmail.com
2) Bids must not be publicised on the message boards, any such posts will be deleted and may cause the removal of the bid from the competition.
3) Bids must plan to use a location in North America (just in case we have any jokers 
)
Key Dates
Bidding open Jan 1st
Bidding closed midnight PST January 31st
Results announced February 21st (latest).
*January 1st bidding process opens
*January 31st last date for full submission.
*Winning bid announced on forums by third week in February
Bidding process will select based on:
Resume of organizing team
Proposed location
Proposed Venue
Suggested Accommodation
Overall price
Bidding process will not involve:
Tournament format
Tournament rules
previous post from the 28 12 2011 below:
Just a quick note to forewarn people that the bidding for the 2013 North American Team Championship opens on January 1st 2012.
Essentially people can submit a proposal for their group to run the 1st NA team Championship.
Bidders will submit an expression of interest by email and recieve a fuller description of what is required.
Submissions will be accepted until January 31st 2012.
Winners should be announced by the end of February 2012 giving at least a year to get everything organised.
Please wait for the 1st to bid when the email address will be provided.
Bids posted on the board will be deleted.
Thanks,
Joe
Lizardcore - Dec 28, 2011 - 01:40 PM
Post subject: RE: Bidding Process for North American Team Championship
Who is evaluating the bids ?
Notorious_jtb - Dec 28, 2011 - 02:24 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North American Team Championship
Lizardcore wrote:
Who is evaluating the bids ?
Great question. We have a group of 10, 5 from Canada (including me) and 5 from the US organising things right now. If any of this group are involved in a bid they will be removed. There are several people not included due to a prediction of their interest in bidding. We also plan to add a number of senior NAF folks from the Rest of the World, hopefully ones involved in the World Cup voting/organising to offer their experienced opinion as well.
This will all be done offline but we will try and offer as much transparency as possible.
The way the process is going to proceed is in an effort to create a structure that can be used for future events (hopefully a 2017 NA Team Championship) that functions independantly of any individual contributor.
sann0638 - Dec 28, 2011 - 02:47 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North American Team Champion
I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering - are you envisaging it only open to North American teams, or is it a team championship that happens to be held in North America?
Notorious_jtb - Dec 28, 2011 - 02:57 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North American Team Cham
sann0638 wrote:
I'm sure I won't be the only one wondering - are you envisaging it only open to North American teams, or is it a team championship that happens to be held in North America?
We believe in open access tournaments so everyone will be welcome. We really would love to have the over subscription problem of the World Cup ii.
So in essence, bring it on Team Swindon
daloonieshaman - Dec 28, 2011 - 09:07 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North American Team
Who decides the other nine people and why have we not heard from Valen (?) the US TO where is the transparency there?
Notorious_jtb - Dec 29, 2011 - 07:42 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North American T
daloonieshaman wrote:
Who decides the other nine people and why have we not heard from Valen (?) the US TO where is the transparency there?
Do not rush to judgement just yet.
There are several senior US folks involved.
Lizardcore - Dec 29, 2011 - 08:00 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North Americ
And you're waiting for the bid to start to know who is still in or out ? It's ok if you can't reveal the other names... but just say so ! 
I guess you're following the NAF elections, and one major point of debate is the lack of transparency of the NAF (doesnt mean people are doing bad stuff in secret - just that we dont really know what's happening). Nobody is questioning the way things are happening for the NA championship, but I guess people would like to know what's up !
Notorious_jtb - Dec 29, 2011 - 09:43 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North Americ
Very fair Lizardcore.
You are right, until we know who bids we can't confirm who judges.
I am hoping the system will be such that there will be easy ways to choose between bids and we don't need too much subjectivity anyway....
But yes, we all want lots of transparency!!!!
I think ultimately it would be nice to have elected judges too. But that will take a long time to organise.
Notorious_jtb - Dec 31, 2011 - 06:06 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Bidding Process for North Americ
Ok, so here it is, a few hours early
Happy New Year!
NA Team Championship Request for Bids
1) Bids must only be submitted by email.
Northamericanteamchampionship@gmail.com
2) Bids must not be publicised on the message boards, any such posts will be deleted and may cause the removal of the bid from the competition.
*January 1st bidding process opens
Submit an expression of interest to receive full bidding guidelines.
These guidelines will help in the construction of the bid document and for comparison of different bids. The expression of interest only needs to be a breif who you are and that you want to think about a bid.
All correspondence will be conducted through the following email address:
Northamericanteamchampionship@gmail.com
*January 31st last date for full submission.
*Winning bid announced on forums by third week in February
Bidding process will select based on:
Resume of organizing team
Proposed location
Proposed Venue
Suggested Accommodation
Overall price
Bidding process will not involve:
Tournament format
Tournament rules
daloonieshaman - Dec 31, 2011 - 07:52 PM
Post subject:
Okay there is already confusion
Do you have a single judge, other than yourself?
Is the US TO defaulted to being a judge?
What are your criteria for the other 8 judges?
How does one bbecome a judge?
The big stank here is the uproar with NAF and transparency.
I do not know how to sugarcoat the following:
I am glad that you came forward and set the ball in motion, BUT
you have aready started and continue with the preception of secreacry and possible nepotism.
Now is the time to come out and put those precptions to rest, less we continue with the current administrative vagueness.
Ps I am not spearheading a bit. I will gladly lend my skills to the actual Cup
Notorious_jtb - Jan 01, 2012 - 07:22 AM
Post subject:
Daloonie really there are no reasonable objections that can be placed at this time.
The processes is clear all bidders will receive the same opportunity to be fairly reviewed. We have declared that current committee members will not vote if they are linked to a bid. For balance purposes there are 5 USA and 5 Canadian members right now. It is not a group of friends just members who want to make this happen like almost everything in Naf they volunteered. Additionally we plan to ask at least the elected NAF officals for their opinion as well and hopefully a couple of additional senior folks who have run big events in Europe.
I would mention that there are a number of democratic traditions around secret ballots. I also refer you to my earlier post where I suggest that we may be able to reveal the voters once we know they don't need to be excluded.
Equally transparency is nice but influencing known voters is a significant negative.
Additionally some things will always remain off the boards for legal reasons I do not expect any contracts signed for this tournament to be reproduced here for example.
Once this process is over I would be happy to have people suggest an ideal method for a bidding process with maximum transparency.
With regards to this process again, I do not plan to vote myself and I think after the fact transparency is enough. I also mentioned previously in this thread and the larger one I started a while ago that it is about building a process. It is not even clear how many credible bids will be received in this time. We are trying to get one step ahead of the first world cup where Nottingham was just picked as the location.
p.s. edited because I did the first version on my phone!
daloonieshaman - Jan 01, 2012 - 12:18 PM
Post subject:
So if I understand you correctly:
Do you have a single judge, other than yourself?
Quote:
For balance purposes there are 5 USA and 5 Canadian members right now
<they are secret other than yourself not to influnce bidding>
Is the US TO defaulted to being a judge?
Quote:
For balance purposes there are 5 USA and 5 Canadian members right now
<they are secret other than yourself not to influnce bidding> so you are implying that the US TO is either slighting a primary duty, you did not invite him, or it is a secret and you would have to kill us before you telll us.
What are your criteria for the other 9 judges?
<well I guess we must conclude by your direct answer that other than secretly voulenteering .... none.> It must be safe to assume they are NAF members at least.
How does one bbecome a judge?
Quote:
It is not a group of friends just members who want to make this happen like almost everything in Naf they volunteered.
<before we openend up the judgeing format to the NAF public, otherwise it is a secret and we won't tell you until it is done><wtf? they are auto excluded and most contest make it a BIG show as to who is making the votes, but it's your show so hide them in the dark until all is done>
ps.....
In your stance to show the NAF the NA ability to host the WCIII, I am sure you think you are going about it in a proper way. You are developing the same questions that circled around WCII development (great finish by the way). You give the appearance of trying to "show that you are open" yet still having it tainted in the foul taste of secrecy. Yes it makes people think of "Ole Boys Club" or Nepotisim because you are hiding key cards close to your chest. It is your show and I will critize you every day to have the slightest influence to make it better. We (NA) have the chance to show NAF how it is done, "raise the bar", do it better. Yes we may or may not get 500 people but the process from start to finish should be clean cut and crystal clear.
zootsuitjeff - Jan 02, 2012 - 02:46 AM
Post subject:
Yes, I'm actually not clear on why the bids should be secret, especially after the bid deadline occurs. Wouldn't it make more sense to have bids be public documents, and allow the membership to give feedback on them?
Notorious_jtb - Jan 02, 2012 - 12:40 PM
Post subject:
zootsuitjeff wrote:
Yes, I'm actually not clear on why the bids should be secret, especially after the bid deadline occurs. Wouldn't it make more sense to have bids be public documents, and allow the membership to give feedback on them?
Great question Jeff!
The bids will be secret for two reasons:
1) This is what the NAF World Cup did. Instead of creating a new process with lots of accrimony and discussion on the boards, it makes sense to copy a successful process. As can be seen from the previous thread nothing is accomplished on message boards.
2) Protection of the people bidding from annoymous snipers criticising and being negative about something that people put significant work into. I think being fairly judged is preferable to this. People will be free to discuss the bids afterwards but there is no benefit to allowing uncensored discussion of the bids on the boards. This is fairer for everyone believe me!
daloonieshaman - Jan 02, 2012 - 12:55 PM
Post subject:
circle answer
There is no legitimate reason why you cannot list who and from where is making a bid. as far a discussion that can be controlled by the mods.
it is simple let me show you ...
Here is the list of Bids (you can even put in in a locked thread)
Jeff from xxx
Dave from yyy
Greg from zzz
damn that was hard, phew
now time to put the mods to work
{member} "I like so and so" [mod] zap ....
Notorious_jtb - Jan 02, 2012 - 12:58 PM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
It is your show and I will critize you every day to have the slightest influence to make it better.
Daloonie, it is not my show, I am only setting up a process to allow fairness. I did so knowing I would be the one to attract negativity and leave the hopefully succesful winning bidders to get on with the important work in relative peace.
daloonieshaman wrote:
You are developing the same questions that circled around WCII development (great finish by the way).
Your point in (brackets) is great. The process for WCII was the best we could have gotten; the negativity and questions only came from the unlucky few who could not attend the massively successful event. I can understand the loosing bidders being sad as well, that is fair but only one group can win.
Notorious_jtb wrote:
You are right, until we know who bids we can't confirm who judges.
To some of your other anger, the above quote (from the 29th) addressed a well formed question from another member. Why would we give out a list of judges that is going to change? The list will be set when it is clear who is available, both in terms of personal time and conflict of interest.
To be honest with you Daloonie, my genuine attempts to answer your questions only seem to make you angry. That being the case unless we can manage this differently I may have to avoid engagement for the benefit of everyone. I don't want people to not bid for the tournament because of this type of excessive negativity. Especially after what the WC II organisers had to go through.
I would cordially suggest you send me a PM with future comments.
Notorious_jtb - Jan 02, 2012 - 01:03 PM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
circle answer
There is no legitimate reason why you cannot list who and from where is making a bid. as far a discussion that can be controlled by the mods.
it is simple let me show you ...
Here is the list of Bids (you can even put in in a locked thread)
Jeff from xxx
Dave from yyy
Greg from zzz
damn that was hard, phew
now time to put the mods to work
{member} "I like so and so" [mod] zap ....
I don't understand your point, are you explaining how to type a list?
This is clearly not the reason we are not going to provide a list of bids. It is just not something that there is any value in discussing on the boards. Please read my post from shortly after yours before reposting.
Jonny_P - Jan 02, 2012 - 01:15 PM
Post subject:
Bickering back and forth really does not put North America in any position to host a WC in 2015.
We need to appear to be one cohesive unit. And by appear, I don't mean fake it either.
I applaud JTB for actually taking the bull the the horns to get this up and running. There was talk about a North American Championship ONE YEAR ago at this point. Anyone could have stepped up in that time period to get something done. No one did... except him.
Shaman: It almost seems you waited for someone to start a process just to try and be combatative. You are a tremendous asset with your experience in event running. I'm sure JTB could use your help.... or even to help a bid in LA or Vegas!
I think it's in everyone's best interests to work together to make this event kick ass. There is no power struggle, old boys club, or any of that. We are all BB fanatics that want to take an event to the next level.
Let's ALL team up and make it happen... let the divisions and battling be left on the pitch! 
daloonieshaman - Jan 02, 2012 - 01:22 PM
Post subject:
We clearly do not get each other.
I see absolutely no reason what's so ever why you even feel you have to keep this stuff secret.
Yes it is your show by defacto, because you write this stuff, you are a National TO (canada right?), and we do not have knowledge of any of the other members.
So in all fairness the only "people" we can confirm is YOU, any other "people" in any committee you create are figments of your writing until proven otherwise.
Ohh and if you are so afraid of your "people" jumping ship to make a bid, should they have already made that discussion before "joining" your committee?
How is ANY of this negative.
by the information provided it is all clear cut fact.
Daggers - Jan 03, 2012 - 11:14 AM
Post subject:
I agree with Jonny_P. I am getting really tired of all this bickering going throughout the community right now. JTB started the ball rolling and took initiative, and I give him kudos for doing it. This has been a long time in the making (as Jonny said, 1 year ago the chatter started about this), and I am keen to see it happen. I know the talk behind the scenes has been ongoing for a while (mainly because it is done by email, and that makes things longer). But Daloonie, you made your point, JTB politely disagreed for the reasons he listed, can we please let it go. And I believe the reason he hasn't listed the commitee members is because he asked many of these people many months ago, before any of them probably had any idea if they were going to make a bif or not. But I believe most would know by now if they were making a bid or not, and a committee list could be presented, just so people know who is making the decisions on our behalf.
But I actually do agree with Daloonie that the bids should be made public. Atleast the locations, not necessarily the groups putting in the bid. If just so the NA BB community knows who are up for the running. And can discuss about how exciting it would be in each city. Just post something after the closing dates saying "Cities, x,y and z made bids and are being reviewed. The winner will be annouced on this date, good luck to all who bid". Atleast then the community feels they are being kept informed, since that seems to be what alot of the gripeing is about.
Glamdryn - Jan 03, 2012 - 02:59 PM
Post subject:
So where are the bids?
Notorious_jtb - Jan 03, 2012 - 03:10 PM
Post subject:
Glamdryn wrote:
So where are the bids?
Well we have not recieved any full bids yet, the schedule is this:
Key Dates
Bidding open Jan 1st
Bidding closed midnight PST January 31st
Results announced February 21st (latest).
We have one expression of interest so far recieved at:
Northamericanteamchampionship@gmail.com
The full bid process has not been posted here but can be recieved as a word file if you are interested in placing a bid.
I will add a seperate topic for bids recieved.
Daggers - Jan 03, 2012 - 06:55 PM
Post subject:
I am sure it will take afew days for people to decide if they want to bid or not. Even making a bid takes time and effort, for possbly nothing. Hopefully we have more than one or two bids. But I also hope there is one for Vegas. Would love to spend another weekend there for sure (hint hint ;P).
daloonieshaman - Jan 03, 2012 - 07:36 PM
Post subject:
Dwarfrunner wrote:
I am sure it will take afew days for people to decide if they want to bid or not. Even making a bid takes time and effort, for possbly nothing. Hopefully we have more than one or two bids. But I also hope there is one for Vegas. Would love to spend another weekend there for sure (hint hint ;P).
ZootSuitJeff is running the West Coast, I do not know what city he wants (he lives in the Bay Area) but I will mention Los Angeles and Vegas to him (we chat every couple of weeks)
Daggers - Jan 04, 2012 - 06:34 AM
Post subject:
Cool.
runki_khrum - Jan 06, 2012 - 11:50 AM
Post subject:
Vegas would be awesome! Looking forward to hearing which cities will be bidding.
Norse - Jan 06, 2012 - 01:15 PM
Post subject:
I would just like to volunteer my time and/or opinion in any way it can be utilized.
I am an avid BB fan/player/coach and a long time NAF member (#144)
I do not belong to any leagues and will not be making any bids to host any events in the East Coast
I live in the US, got married in Canada and grew up in Europe, so I have zero bias
I think JTB is doing great getting this rolling. I do kind of understand where Dennis is coming from though. All the privacy will likely lead to more accusations of bias and wrong doing than simply stating who the 10 judges are, what the choices were and how they voted.
Cheers,
R
Notorious_jtb - Jan 06, 2012 - 01:21 PM
Post subject:
Norse wrote:
I would just like to volunteer my time and/or opinion in any way it can be utilized.
I am an avid BB fan/player/coach and a long time NAF member (#144)
I do not belong to any leagues and will not be making any bids to host any events in the East Coast
I live in the US, got married in Canada and grew up in Europe, so I have zero bias
I think JTB is doing great getting this rolling. I do kind of understand where Dennis is coming from though. All the privacy will likely lead to more accusations of bias and wrong doing than simply stating who the 10 judges are, what the choices were and how they voted.
Cheers,
R
Thanks Norse! I think we are trying for some more transparency. We are getting a thread up listing bids and rough location as they come in.
I agree on making the voters/organisers of this process public. But I have yet to do so because I haven't had the chance to reach them all over the holidays. I also want to let them bid and remove themselves if that is their preference.
I think that this rolling ball/stone has knocked a lot of moss off already and this might not end up a perfect process but hopefully no one is too mad 
Norse - Jan 06, 2012 - 01:34 PM
Post subject:
great, a definite step in the right direction..
ravyn - Jan 07, 2012 - 12:27 PM
Post subject:
@Daloonieshaman Dennis instead of arguing with jtb why dont you offer your vast experience as an organizer to help the process. volunteer to be a judge. then you can work together to open the process to everyone else.
elscorcho - Jan 09, 2012 - 10:04 AM
Post subject:
Am I understanding correctly? If any person was asked to judge for a potential destination they essentially can have no bias whatsoever for a final landing spot for the NATC?
Also, to suggest a host city would one need to be the potential TO as well?
If I am assuming the answers to all these questions what I expect them to be, does this not take some very desirable host cities out of the running?
Thanks!
Daggers - Jan 09, 2012 - 10:25 AM
Post subject:
This is one of the problems that arose in all the conversations. Vegas was a favored destination for many on the forums, but until recently there was not even a tournament in the city, so someone would have to bid from outside the city.
daloonieshaman - Jan 09, 2012 - 12:12 PM
Post subject:
Remember, any city in Canada or the US is a good city... Do some carry more weight? Yes that is what the process is all about.
The difference (and they need to be separate) are the few key location that will be good for the WC3 that might not be good for the NATC.
For WC3 the US has 4 maybe 5 good cities. Chicago, Las Vegas, Los Angeles (~~ ehh), New York, and Miami/Orlando, for curb appeal.
Canada maybe has 3 Cities, (please chime in) Vancouver, Quebec, Toronto.
Yes there are other cities and that is what both bid systems are and will be about. Also remember the crew will play a big part in this.
We need to get through this one...
Volunteer your City, or jump on board with some one else.
I will provide my skills to the winning bid as the winning Event Organizer ask.
Quote:
elsorcho:
Am I understanding correctly? If any person was asked to judge for a potential destination they essentially can have no bias whatsoever for a final landing spot for the NATC?
Also, to suggest a host city would one need to be the potential TO as well?
If I am assuming the answers to all these questions what I expect them to be, does this not take some very desirable host cities out of the running?
Thanks!
1) everyone is bias. They must try to be logical as to what will provide the most for North America, not just their neck of the woods.
2) Can't you be an Event Organizer without being a TO? I know lots of EOs, I have no idea who all of NAs TOs are and I partner a biggie myself (The West Coast Quake)
3) Not Necessarily ... Say Xtreme became a judge (Indy). Can Johnny, Mike or Myself run Indy? Of course. The NATC is not about my yard v/s your yard, it is about what do "we" think is best for the NATC and which Crew (group) can pull it off ... not to mention the help of people that started in another crew to pull it off.
Lizardcore - Jan 09, 2012 - 01:03 PM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
Canada maybe has 3 Cities, (please chime in) Vancouver, Quebec, Toronto.
Maybe Montreal, not Quebec 
daloonieshaman - Jan 09, 2012 - 01:27 PM
Post subject:
Lizardcore wrote:
daloonieshaman wrote:
Canada maybe has 3 Cities, (please chime in) Vancouver, Quebec, Toronto.
Maybe Montreal, not Quebec
Cool not up to speed on those
Volstagg - Jan 09, 2012 - 01:33 PM
Post subject:
Short after the WCII, some spanish coaches were also talking about setting up a "European Team Championship" (we were calling it EuroNAF) just the way you are planning now. Every 4 years, 2 years from the WC and open to any number of teams... pretty much the same.
We were talking about just two bids, Madrid or Barcelona (and maybe Valencia) and we asked our TO Frikipe to ask Pippy (Tournament Director) if we could get an official opinion from the NAF... this was asked on late November or so, so with the presidental election I guess it's gonna take some time to get some kind of answer.
I had not seen this thread till now, but if there's some real interest on seeing this happen, both in Europe and NA, could be a very good thing to have some NAF representative overseeing this two projects... both could also help each other sharing resources or just ideas.
Some where talking on the Election Q&A thread, sorry for the off topic, about creating some kind of NAF liasion position... I think this is a good example for creating such a position within the NAF.
@ daloonieshaman: the funny thing is that when we first talked about this, we heard a lot of critics about trying to engage the NAF to participate on running such a tournament, and actually we were just asking the NAF to promote this event, so I don't see why can't Notorious_jtb set himself the rules about bidding and electing, since a) it is mainly his idea and b) there is no official statement from the NAF HQ.
I'm afraid most of the critics we heard were just because Pako is also behind this idea... 
For more references here's the thread were all this came up:
http://thenaf.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=5380&start=90
@ Notorious_jtb: many kudos to you and your people for trying to do such a thing. I think it would be great if NA and Europe (Australia and NZ too) could have something like this, and fully NAF supported.
I will be happy to give any extra info or help when needed via pm.
Cheers.
Lizardcore - Jan 09, 2012 - 01:42 PM
Post subject:
@ Volstagg: Not familiar with the thread and discussion we are talking about. But I can imagine the issues that it might creates... There is already a team-based european tournament. There fore another one sucks. Now, I understand that they are different, and that the format of the present one causes some issues (especially in Spain). The question is therefore : "how the eurocup should evolve", and not "why the naf is no helping us to setup this new event". Different discussion.
Here the situation has nothing to do with what you're talking about: it's the north american setting up their own championship. So maybe you should quote what is happening here to the other thread to make things move, and not the other way around.
As this is out of the topic, this could continued by pm if needed...
Glamdryn - Jan 09, 2012 - 01:51 PM
Post subject:
What is a realistic range of attendance for a North American Championship???
Any ideas?
Darkson - Jan 09, 2012 - 01:54 PM
Post subject:
Volstagg wrote:
I'm afraid most of the critics we heard were just because Pako is also behind this idea...
Nice misrepresentation of the facts - most of the critics were because Pako wanted "NAF to do this" and "NAF to do that", which is the complete opposite of what the guys here are trying to do.
@ Notorious et al - good luck with this. I had the please of playing against Team USA at WCII, and the (mis- ) fortune of spending a lot of time with the USA team at WCI in the White Hart, so would love to see more teams over for future WCs.
Unless there's a big lottery win in my future, I doubt I'll make the WC when (not if, I have faith in you guys ) it's held your side of the pond.
If I get a vote, hold it during the NFL season in Washington D.C, so I can watch the Redskins during the time I'm there. 
Jonny_P - Jan 09, 2012 - 02:51 PM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
Remember, any city in Canada or the US is a good city... Do some carry more weight? Yes that is what the process is all about.
Let's not get too craz...um..er... loonie here. I wouldn't say 'any' but could I list 25 cities (plus surrounding metro areas)? Yes, no question. Lots of great cities to host, but someone to take local ownership is few and far between.
You are correct about World Cup. Honestly that's not even on my radar one bit. That is way too far out for me to even think about it. I want to see a kick ass NATC first and foremost. I know some view it as a stepping stone to hosting WC, and that is fine, but it doesn't concern me much at this point. For me, a successful NATC is a stepping stone for a 2nd NATC!
daloonieshaman wrote:
Say Xtreme became a judge (Indy). Can Johnny, Mike or Myself run Indy? Of course. The NATC is not about my yard v/s your yard, it is about what do "we" think is best for the NATC and which Crew (group) can pull it off ... not to mention the help of people that started in another crew to pull it off.
Completely agree. Would I rather see a half-ass tournament 5 miles from my house or a kick ass tournament 500 miles away?
Here is where I'm at right now.
As much as I love to give back to the community by being a TO (I'm running 4 tournaments this year including a major), there is just no way I can commit to such a thing and give it 100%.
This year is the first time EVER the Chaos Cup is not held in GW territory. Getting venue/accomodation info/quotes and such is hard work. If I had a couple years of that under my belt, I would gladly help with a bid for the NATC, but right now, it's new territory for me.
I said the same thing last year as I say now, I'll help out wherever I can (current blood bowl workload permitting) with NATC.... #1 will be promotion since I'm the Main Guy and all, but also with judging or planning or rules or whatever is needed.
But with all that said...assuming I am able to attend the NATC, I'm going to be playing and having a good time! So no TO for me! 
elscorcho - Jan 09, 2012 - 03:52 PM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
Quote:
elsorcho:
Am I understanding correctly? If any person was asked to judge for a potential destination they essentially can have no bias whatsoever for a final landing spot for the NATC?
Also, to suggest a host city would one need to be the potential TO as well?
If I am assuming the answers to all these questions what I expect them to be, does this not take some very desirable host cities out of the running?
Thanks!
1) everyone is bias. They must try to be logical as to what will provide the most for North America, not just their neck of the woods.
2) Can't you be an Event Organizer without being a TO? I know lots of EOs, I have no idea who all of NAs TOs are and I partner a biggie myself (The West Coast Quake)
3) Not Necessarily ... Say Xtreme became a judge (Indy). Can Johnny, Mike or Myself run Indy? Of course. The NATC is not about my yard v/s your yard, it is about what do "we" think is best for the NATC and which Crew (group) can pull it off ... not to mention the help of people that started in another crew to pull it off.
Awesome, thanks for the clarification.
Daggers - Jan 10, 2012 - 07:03 AM
Post subject:
Darkson wrote:
Volstagg wrote:
I'm afraid most of the critics we heard were just because Pako is also behind this idea...
Nice misrepresentation of the facts - most of the critics were because Pako wanted "NAF to do this" and "NAF to do that", which is the complete opposite of what the guys here are trying to do.
If I get a vote, hold it during the NFL season in Washington D.C, so I can watch the Redskins during the time I'm there.
I totally agree, the way Jtb is doing it is the most effective way of to move this process along. And I am sure once the process is more underway JTB will be including more NAF "brass" for their input, because in the end, we do want this to be a NAF "major" of sorts.
And I agree with Jonny, I don't see this as a stepping stone for a WC bid; I see this as making a NA equivalent for ourselves.
Notorious_jtb - Jan 10, 2012 - 05:50 PM
Post subject:
Glamdryn wrote:
What is a realistic range of attendance for a North American Championship???
Any ideas?
Great question Glamdryn, and one I don't think anyone can give a definitive answer too.
I would suggest that between 50 and 200 is probably going to cover it but I am sure there will be a dozen different opinions on that. I would suggest a target should be that it be the biggest tournament held in North American Blood Bowl History, which I think means in the 70s.
I belive Zlurpee has the US record at 68 and the Spike in Canada got 51.
Does that help at all?
Notorious_jtb - Jan 10, 2012 - 06:49 PM
Post subject:
Great to see the conversation really picking up.
We really do see this as a stepping stone really to making this a regular event of significance, that hopefully becomes a highlight of the North American scene.
I know a lot of people would like to see a World Cup in North America but if we make the North American Championship a big deal, we will have international attendees from the other continents anyway!
Without it being the primary aim, I am sure a successful North American Team Championship would only help a bid for the World Cup but that process would be very complicated and it would be far from certain to leave the European continent. So no need to say we need to win the world cup to make our event a success. A well attended, recurring championship would be spectacular.
To all the people with offers of help and kind words, once we do determine the location of the event, the local team will need an incredible amount of support so your contributions will be very welcome!
Jonny_P - Jan 10, 2012 - 08:37 PM
Post subject:
I think 100 is a realistic goal for a NATC.
Zlurpee a couple years ago had 68, and actually Chaos Cup and Spike last year both had 56. I'm hoping to exceed 68 at Chaos Cup this year.
generaljason - Jan 11, 2012 - 10:48 AM
Post subject:
Notorious_jtb wrote:
I belive Zlurpee has the US record at 68 and the Spike in Canada got 51.
Sorry I've been absent from this discussion but holidays and Thunderbowl play-offs coming up next Saturday have been sucking up most of my time as of late.
Spike! Magazine had 56 coaches last year - we should have had over 60. 4 of our core Spike! attendees from TB had either family, emergency work and what not, and 3 RCR players jammed out last minute.
Notorious_jtb wrote:
Without it being the primary aim, I am sure a successful North American Team Championship would only help a bid for the World Cup but that process would be very complicated and it would be far from certain to leave the European continent.
No disrespect intended Joe but I said before and I'll say it again - first WC had 274 coaches, last one had 480. WC should always stay in Europe - no North American city is ever going to come close to that short of Simon (amongst hundreds of other Europeans) winning the lottery. Not a hope in hell.
Who wants to put in a bid to host the first (and definitely the last) WC on North American soil when that bid will never even come close to getting half of the attendees of even the first WC? May sound like pessimism guys but I'm just trying to be realistic in that even with a headcount of 480 no North American team was turned away - we benefited from 'affirmative action', whereas at least half a dozen Euro teams were not able to attend. Probably about 90% of all tournament players worldwide hang their hat in Europe which is why it should remain there for at least our lifetime until those demographics change.
As for the NATC - the North American answer to never hosting a WC. 102 coaches (26 teams of 4) or more would be a fantastic (and I think realistic) turnout for such an event, but would be an abject failure for WC given the precedent already established in 2007, and then smashed in 2011. I think it's time some people resign themselves to that fact and stop thinking of an inaugural NATC as being some sort of stepping stone to host a future WC - again I'm sorry to say it but that's a pipe dream.
Even if you had no Europeans and just North Americans - if you add the West (56 coaches at Spike!) and the East (56 coaches at Chaos Cup) we barely break 100 by ourselves at that's only if everyone who at least attended the NA Majors unanimously attended - Europe can surpass 400 all by itself without breaking a sweat.
Notorious_jtb wrote:
To all the people with offers of help and kind words, once we do determine the location of the event, the local team will need an incredible amount of support so your contributions will be very welcome!
Again I applaud you Joe for taking the time to front this conversation for the rest of us and trying to get this up and running! I did actually read every post in this thread before writing and wow - you've taken a lot of inflammatory and completely unproductive flack for doing so in the beginning. I'm sorry I wasn't here earlier to defend you with duck tape and a hammer (I'm kidding I would have used a bazooka!)
Keep up the great work and looking forward to seeing some genuine bids for the inaugural North American Team Challenge in the next few weeks! I promise not to be a stranger.
Craig.
Daggers - Jan 11, 2012 - 11:34 AM
Post subject:
generaljason wrote:
Notorious_jtb wrote:
Without it being the primary aim, I am sure a successful North American Team Championship would only help a bid for the World Cup but that process would be very complicated and it would be far from certain to leave the European continent.
No disrespect intended Joe but I said before and I'll say it again - first WC had 274 coaches, last one had 480. WC should
always stay in Europe - no North American city is ever going to come close to that …
I am totally with this, as much as I want to go to a WC, I don’t think it makes sense to have a WC in NA. The numbers just aren’t there. Why would we want a WC here with 100 coaches when ANYWHERE in Europe could have 5x that easy. It just doesn’t make sense. Yes, it’s an international community, but you want a HUGE event like this where you can have the most attendees, and NA is just not it. I have said this numerous times, and will say it again, lets concentrate on making a NA event a kick-ass event and enjoy it as a unification of NA coaches.
Glamdryn - Jan 11, 2012 - 11:36 AM
Post subject:
Negative nancy...
I think it would be fantastic to have WCIII in the states or Australia. World Cup? Not European Cup...
Lizardcore - Jan 11, 2012 - 11:48 AM
Post subject:
It's funny because a lot of Europeans (bunch of communists anyway ) are quite sensitive to the fact that the NAF is international, therefore the WC should be held outside Europe regularly (lets say 1/3), even if there is only 200 coaches participating.
Notorious_jtb - Jan 11, 2012 - 11:50 AM
Post subject:
Good stuff.
The numbers for SPIKE and other events were from Doubleskulls website and may be just the NAF registered players only at the time of his data download so sorry for the error.
I agree 26 teams and 102 players is a great target!
RE WC III, I think realism is needed but "dreaming" is ok. Do I think we can get a 500 player tournament in NA by 2015, probably not very likely. Do I think we will get any votes to host a WC without getting a 100 player tournament ever in North America, no chance.
The reason for doing the North American Championship is because it is an awesome idea and could be a fantastic thing for us and NAF in NA. If as a by product of having a great event it raises the chance of a NA WC by 1% that is nice too. But given how sad people were about teams not being able to enter the last event I would say telling people ok, entry is $2000 minimum would make a lot of people in Europe really sad. Really, getting respect and attention from the rest of the World to the NA scene is the real byproduct, not a WC bid. If we get 3-5 teams come from other continents to the NA Championship that would be awesome!!!
Notorious_jtb - Jan 11, 2012 - 11:53 AM
Post subject:
Lizardcore wrote:
It's funny because a lot of Europeans (bunch of communists anyway
) are quite sensitive to the fact that the NAF is international, therefore the WC should be held outside Europe regularly (lets say 1/3), even if there is only 200 coaches participating.
OO cross post. Yeah I didn't want to focus on that aspect of the politics but yeah, FIFA influences a lot these days
As I say, even with that we need to prove 100 NA coaches will gather together.
So if we make the North American Championship a success, we gain that 1%........
But if we get the NA championship rolling and it is two years removed from the WC then regardless of continent both might benefit from a "global community with closer ties".
Rando - Jan 11, 2012 - 12:05 PM
Post subject:
I'd like to see how things go down with the NAC first and foremost, maybe WC IV might find a home in NA but as it stands I think WCIII should certainly remain in Europe. Plenty of countries left in Europe to keep it 'worldy' too
I think I saw some data that stated there there are some 2000 NAF players who competed in a tournament in 2011. That is not a helluva lot of clout for the time being.
daloonieshaman - Jan 11, 2012 - 12:17 PM
Post subject:
1) There is no reason a WC cannot be held outside of Europe.
This is about the NATC.
We are gonna have zero people show up. until we find a location and start taking reg. money.
The Key to the NATC attendance is advertising. I am talking anywhere and everywhere. All the podcast, all the forums, black box forums. Every single Tournament. Emails from every League Commish to his broad player group. Think big American corporation. They shove their branding down our throats. Do we get annoyed, yes, are we fed up, yes, do we go out and buy their product if we have some interest, hell yes! Also the best form of advertising Word of Mouth and information. You say "Dave lets go to the NATC. What the hell is the NATC? I don't know." you think he will be inticed no
now if you said Dave Let play a game. During the game you say "I am thinking about going to the NATC, you going? What is the NATC? Well it is ...."
Now Dave is thinking about going.
a) you are considering it/going
b) you gave him informed information and planted that seed'
the rest is logistics
Darkson - Jan 11, 2012 - 12:31 PM
Post subject:
Lizardcore wrote:
It's funny because a lot of Europeans (bunch of communists anyway
) are quite sensitive to the fact that the NAF is international, therefore the WC should be held outside Europe regularly (lets say 1/3), even if there is only 200 coaches participating.
+1 from me, even if I couldn't get there - why should we Brits (and the odd Euro ) get all the fun?
(I'm British, dammit, not European - I'll start calling you American next! 
)
daloonieshaman - Jan 11, 2012 - 12:37 PM
Post subject:
Darkson wrote:
Lizardcore wrote:
It's funny because a lot of Europeans (bunch of communists anyway
) are quite sensitive to the fact that the NAF is international, therefore the WC should be held outside Europe regularly (lets say 1/3), even if there is only 200 coaches participating.
+1 from me, even if I couldn't get there - why should we Brits (and the odd Euro
) get all the fun?
(I'm British, dammit, not European - I'll start calling you American next!
)
Arrogant freakin Brits. don't even know geography
Lizardcore - Jan 11, 2012 - 12:57 PM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
Arrogant freakin Brits. don't even know geography
Daloonie, you made my day
Notorious_jtb - Jan 11, 2012 - 01:41 PM
Post subject:
Darkson wrote:
Lizardcore wrote:
It's funny because a lot of Europeans (bunch of communists anyway
) are quite sensitive to the fact that the NAF is international, therefore the WC should be held outside Europe regularly (lets say 1/3), even if there is only 200 coaches participating.
+1 from me, even if I couldn't get there - why should we Brits (and the odd Euro
) get all the fun?
(I'm British, dammit, not European - I'll start calling you American next!
)
Haha, 'son, Lizardcore may be a little more European than you suspect 
But still calling a Frenchman American...
Quote:
Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 12:57 PM
daloonieshaman wrote:
Arrogant freakin Brits. don't even know geography
Daloonie, you made my day
That's why this is funny
zootsuitjeff - Jan 11, 2012 - 03:43 PM
Post subject:
I think the WCIII and whether it should be out of Europe has been discussed extensively in its own thread. Very briefly, my opinion is that there are other factors besides just sheer # of attendees that should determine where the WC is held. Yes a NA WC would be smaller than 480, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. And I do think NATC is a stepping stone in the sense of proving that we can successfully hold a large international event, but it definitely is also a goal in itself. Anyways I think we should focus primarily on the NATC at this point.
Notorious_jtb - Jan 12, 2012 - 07:40 AM
Post subject:
zootsuitjeff wrote:
I think the WCIII and whether it should be out of Europe has been discussed extensively in its own thread. Very briefly, my opinion is that there are other factors besides just sheer # of attendees that should determine where the WC is held. Yes a NA WC would be smaller than 480, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. And I do think NATC is a stepping stone in the sense of proving that we can successfully hold a large international event, but it definitely is also a goal in itself. Anyways I think we should focus primarily on the NATC at this point.
Absolutely agree with that Jeff!
We can open a North American WC thread after we have this process completed here. The people who are eager to discuss the WC can rest assured that this work/discussion here is only helping them get what they want.
Back the NATC!!!!
Doubleskulls - Jan 12, 2012 - 09:11 AM
Post subject:
Notorious_jtb wrote:
The numbers for SPIKE and other events were from Doubleskulls website and may be just the NAF registered players only
Its actually NAF coaches who had a game registered - so if they didn't play another NAF coach they won't show up.
Doubleskulls - Jan 12, 2012 - 09:13 AM
Post subject:
daloonieshaman wrote:
Arrogant freakin Brits. don't even know geography
Another couple of years and there won't even be Brits anymore
Lizardcore - Jan 12, 2012 - 09:36 AM
Post subject:
Doubleskulls wrote:
daloonieshaman wrote:
Arrogant freakin Brits. don't even know geography
Another couple of years and there won't even be Brits anymore
Really ? They are finally joining the USA, as 52nd state ?
Daggers - Jan 12, 2012 - 10:58 AM
Post subject:
Nope, they are joining Canada as the 14th province.
Notorious_jtb - Jan 12, 2012 - 11:07 AM
Post subject:
Doubleskulls wrote:
Notorious_jtb wrote:
The numbers for SPIKE and other events were from Doubleskulls website and may be just the NAF registered players only
Its actually NAF coaches who had a game registered - so if they didn't play another NAF coach they won't show up.
I thought that would be the case, I didn't want to say so without checking though!
That makes it easier for me to make this statement though.
"All 4 coaches on a team have to be registered NAF members in order to register the team for the North American Team Championship".
Just so we are all clear
I expect some opinions but I will fight for this one.
generaljason - Jan 12, 2012 - 01:22 PM
Post subject:
Notorious_jtb wrote:
The numbers for SPIKE and other events were from Doubleskulls website and may be just the NAF registered players only
Yeah that's what I figured.
Doubleskulls wrote:
Its actually NAF coaches who had a game registered - so if they didn't play another NAF coach they won't show up.
I'd love nothing more than to make it mandatory for any NAF Major that you need to be a NAF member to participate - even work it into the ticket price with the discount for players who are NAF members already.
Notorious_jtb wrote:
I thought that would be the case, I didn't want to say so without checking though!
That makes it easier for me to make this statement though.
"All 4 coaches on a team have to be registered NAF members in order to register the team for the North American Team Championship".
Just so we are all clear
I expect some opinions but I will fight for this one.
No fight necessary. The WC already has this rule that you have to be a NAF registered member in order to play. No issues here.
+1
daloonieshaman - Jan 12, 2012 - 01:34 PM
Post subject:
IF NATC is an actual NAF tournament: (not just approved like Zlurpee, but Actual)
In this Case as well as the 5 majors and WC then yes pay your freakin $10 to join the country club or stay outside the fence.[/u]
Daggers - Jan 12, 2012 - 02:00 PM
Post subject:
+1, wanna play, join the club.
Jonny_P - Jan 12, 2012 - 02:11 PM
Post subject:
We do a bit of a hard sell at our tournaments if they are not NAF members.
Big Vito, duct tape, baseball bats.
100% NAF!
Notorious_jtb - Jan 30, 2012 - 06:23 PM
Post subject:
Last day to submit a bid is tomorrow!!!!
Get bidding,.
blammaham - Jan 31, 2012 - 05:14 PM
Post subject:
Was a single bid garnered through this process? S.
daloonieshaman - Jan 31, 2012 - 05:39 PM
Post subject:
blammaham wrote:
Was a single bid garnered through this process? S.
We shall see ....
I figure of the 5 logical bidders there would be 3
Notorious_jtb - Feb 01, 2012 - 10:52 AM
Post subject:
Updates coming tonight. We got some bids. Lots of disclosure tonight once i get out of my conference.
Alkaline13 - Feb 02, 2012 - 11:28 PM
Post subject:
Any updates?
Notorious_jtb - Feb 03, 2012 - 08:12 PM
Post subject:
Sorry for the delay, my conference was way busier than I hoped. We have three bids and I will get the list of bids and the voters up as soon as possible. Hopefully that will be pleasing to people.
I am excited to see where we are going!!!
blammaham - Feb 05, 2012 - 10:12 PM
Post subject:
I'd love to be excited too ! S.
Taxal - Feb 07, 2012 - 10:13 AM
Post subject:
Whats the word Joe????
blammaham - Feb 07, 2012 - 11:13 AM
Post subject:
Stuck in cement? S.
Notorious_jtb - Feb 07, 2012 - 06:45 PM
Post subject:
Sorry, long on busy, short on sleep. Thread on bids updated, determining voter group, fourth bid being detemrined if it can be considered.
Voters will be listed prior to the judging.
Still hope to announce the winners in February.
Alkaline13 - Feb 17, 2012 - 07:42 PM
Post subject:
Any updates?
Notorious_jtb - Feb 21, 2012 - 08:08 AM
Post subject:
Update soon, very soon.
Notorious_jtb - Feb 22, 2012 - 06:48 PM
Post subject:
Voting is done, the winner is Las Vegas!
Congratulations to the winning team and thanks to all bidders.
We will now go into serious organisation mode for dates and logistics.
Thanks for your patience!
generaljason - Feb 22, 2012 - 08:10 PM
Post subject:
Cool. Congrats to Jeff, Dennis, Mike and company for putting in that bid. Looking forward to seeing this finally coming together and seeing everyone out in Vegas in just over a year!
@ Jeff, Dennis and Mike: To show my appreciation for taking this monstrous task on and agreeing to sit out for this inaugural NATC, I'll try not to kick your ass too bad at RCR this weekend. See you in a couple of days.
Start saving now folks. Vegas is cheap - a grand and change plus spending money and you're there. We're breaking 3 digits this time! Too bad 2012 just started as I'm already looking forward to 2013.
Again great bid!
Gj.
daloonieshaman - Feb 22, 2012 - 09:40 PM
Post subject:
Nobody but Nuffle kicks my ass
zootsuitjeff - Feb 24, 2012 - 01:10 PM
Post subject:
In the interest of that 'transparency' thing, can we see who the voters were? I want to know who I should harangue about organizing a team to come to the event.
Lizardcore - Feb 24, 2012 - 01:49 PM
Post subject:
zootsuitjeff wrote:
In the interest of that 'transparency' thing, can we see who the voters were? I want to know who I should harangue about organizing a team to come to the event.
I guess that was joe's plan (not telling who voted for who, but just who was in the jury and what was the rationnal for it).
But Joe's british, so I might have misunderstood him
Glamdryn - Feb 24, 2012 - 11:32 PM
Post subject:
Id like to know the vote break down.
generaljason - Mar 02, 2012 - 12:05 PM
Post subject:
Glamdryn wrote:
Id like to know the vote break down.
I don't think that'll happen. What the vote was maybe, but who voting what - never.
zootsuitjeff wrote:
In the interest of that 'transparency' thing, can we see who the voters were? I want to know who I should harangue about organizing a team to come to the event.
Joe was going to post this when the location was announced so I guess he hasn't gotten around to it. Here it is:
5 Americans, 5 Canadians:
Yanks:
01. flyingdingle
02. darkork20
03. jonny_p
04. xtreme
05. khail
Canucks:
01. notorious_jtb
02. anthonyTBBF
03. spazzfist
04. poundfist
05. generaljason
We let Joe run it and he abstained from voting.
Jeff - start haranguing. 
Gj.
zootsuitjeff - Mar 02, 2012 - 12:30 PM
Post subject:
generaljason wrote:
5 Americans, 5 Canadians:
Yanks:
01. flyingdingle
02. darkork20
03. jonny_p
04. xtreme
05. khail
Canucks:
01. notorious_jtb
02. anthonyTBBF
03. spazzfist
04. poundfist
05. generaljason
We let Joe run it and he abstained from voting.
Jeff - start haranguing.
Gj.
Wow, that's a high percentage of fists. I'll get on it.
Jonny_P - Mar 02, 2012 - 01:01 PM
Post subject:
20% are named fist
30% enjoy a good fist
We are off to a pretty great start thus far!
Glamdryn - Mar 02, 2012 - 01:17 PM
Post subject:
generaljason wrote:
Glamdryn wrote:
Id like to know the vote break down.
I don't think that'll happen. What the vote was maybe, but who voting what - never.
Just wanted to know what the vote was... that should be transparent, right? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be.
daloonieshaman - Mar 02, 2012 - 01:17 PM
Post subject:
Hello <tink, tink, tink> is anyone there. Hello Hello
We need a separate space with a password protected forum (for Admin so we can prepare and haggle info before we release it, providing transparency. This allows us to throw around ideas so the general population does not create misguided gossip.
Under the North American Team Championship (in the North American tournament section) we will create the following threads.
Rules (a release of the rules)
Transportation (Help with driving or flights and hooking up a ride)
Need/Create a team
Transparency (were we release information ass it solidifies.)
Also with a separate sub-forum we can have most other websites direct link to there for one stop shopping
generaljason - Mar 02, 2012 - 02:38 PM
Post subject:
Glamdryn wrote:
generaljason wrote:
Glamdryn wrote:
Id like to know the vote break down.
I don't think that'll happen. What the vote was maybe, but who voting what - never.
Just wanted to know what the vote was... that should be transparent, right? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be.
PM sent.
Glamdryn - Mar 02, 2012 - 02:57 PM
Post subject:
generaljason wrote:
PM sent.
Thanks
Notorious_jtb - Mar 14, 2012 - 07:26 PM
Post subject:
New thread will be started on this for the organising committee to use.