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Rules Questions - Regeneration

quietdominator - Oct 18, 2013 - 09:51 PM
Post subject: Regeneration

I remember a discussion on Regeneration on this site. The discussion was that the regeneration roll has to be done right after the casualty is rolled. The question was can you wait until the drive was completed to role for Regeneration. The answer was no. I just want to make sure this is correct.
Confused

sann0638 - Oct 19, 2013 - 01:23 AM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

That is correct, but the rulebook could do with the word "immediately" adding to it, probably.

quietdominator - Oct 19, 2013 - 08:07 AM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

sann0638, if I remember correctly after this was said some one came on and said they did not see why this really made a difference. Some one else then explained why it most definitely made a difference. sann0638 could you possible elaborate. I would appreciate it.

Gaixo - Oct 19, 2013 - 09:44 AM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

I think you're referring to this the thread about teams that have access to regeneration and apothecaries.
http://member.thenaf.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=4382
I would assume that this is the main reason the timing was ever changed (Regeneration having formerly been rolled at the same time as knockouts).

It might also be relevant if one wanted to use an Igor, after having had extra time to see how many other injuries were sustained.

quietdominator - Oct 19, 2013 - 12:14 PM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

Yes Gaixo I was. I was the one who said there was no difference and I was corrected by Grumbledook. He said "Quote" You have to do both rolls immediately (for apothecary and regen), though perhaps you have a case the rules aren't clear.

It does have an impact on the match when you do them as well. If you waited until the end of the drive your opponent doesn't know which players are coming back and which are sustaining their injuries. Depending on the player in question this may dictate how quickly they decide to score, if your best players were out for the rest of the match for example, they may score earlier knowing your team is going to be weaker the next drive... " Unquote.

Knowing or not knowing if a high ST player is coming back or has a chance to come back influences the way you play. The difference of having to deal with 3 vs 2 high strength players makes a difference. If there is no way a high ST player is coming back then knowing you do not have to go out of your way when there are only 2 on the board. If there is a way that there might be 3 again then it might be better to go out of your way to put another one off the board if you can. It would surly be easier to do this with 2 on the board vs having 3 on the board.

So as far as I am concerned this is important. Also when I first started playing with players with Regeneration and forgot to roll it I was told I was just out of luck because it had to be done immediately.

Gaixo - Oct 19, 2013 - 12:18 PM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

Oh, I thought you were asking a question. Maybe you should have just presented your case in the first place.

sann0638 - Oct 19, 2013 - 12:35 PM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

I think without the word "immediately" it is up to debate, but it seems there is actually little debate, as virtually everyone plays it in the same way (i.e. doing it immediately).

quietdominator - Oct 19, 2013 - 02:21 PM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

No debate here. I like to play it as immediately as the rules imply. Unless I am over ruled that is. Thank you SANN0638 and Gaixo for the answer.

quietdominator - Oct 24, 2013 - 10:30 PM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

I am getting an extreme amount of hostility from the league I am in about this question as to when the regeneration roll has to be made. I need an authority to come on here and say what the official rule is for the game. Because I am totally confused. A year ago I played a game in witch I forgot to roll regeneration. The game was with a long time player in the league I am in. I remembered it a few turns later when another player was cased. I was not allowed to roll regeneration for the one I forgot a few turns earlier. I came on here and asked if it mattered when you rolled Regen. I was told you have to do it immediately. At least that is how I understood what I was told. I accepted it and moved on as a lesson learned. Now I am being told by my commissioner that that was not by any one with credentials in the game. I am also being told by an ex commissioner that it does not matter. So I am totally confused. Also apparently saying that is how it is called in tournaments does not work either. Unless maybe you mention the tournaments it was called and used in as having to be immediately. I thought the question was settled when I came on here and got the answer that it had to be rolled immediately. But apparently no one believes it who is in authority in my league. Why they did not tell me this a year ago I do not know.

The question is point blank: Do you have to roll for Regeneration immediately after the casualty is rolled or can you wait a few turns or even until just before the set up for the next drive. I also apparently need an answer from some one with credentials in the game. To answer the question. Thank you.

Verrinho - Oct 25, 2013 - 04:14 AM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

In the rules it is stated that you have to roll for regeneration "after the roll on the casualty table and after any apothecary roll, if allowed." so there's no point of discussion on that Smile

on top of that it is written that "on a 4-6 the player will heal the injury after a short period of time to re-organise himself, and IS PLACED ON THE RESERVES BOX INSTEAD."

Wink

sann0638 - Oct 25, 2013 - 05:43 AM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

@quietdominator - can I suggest the commissioner asks the question? I don't think anyone on these various threads or TFF is suggesting that the regen roll can be taken later. This is never how it is played in NAF tournaments (in my experience) or in any league, Fumbbl, or I would guess Cyanide too. What is the debate?

If the commish wanted to make it that the regen roll could happen any time during the drive, I would think this would be a house rule.

Darkson - Oct 25, 2013 - 07:26 AM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

+1 to what sann0638 said.
And I'd also add in that the rule book says the commissioner's rule is final, so if your commish has decided to deviate from the rules on this (or anything else) they can do.

quietdominator - Oct 25, 2013 - 09:35 AM
Post subject: RE: Regeneration

sann0638 my commissioner suggested I ask the question and give the story as I see it. I do not think he is trying to make a house rule. He said he thinks it can be rolled at any time and that there is no impact on the game when it is rolled. He said that is how he reads the rules. If he is miss reading the rules he will change his mind. So it is a question of the rule not the commissioners power to change the rule. He just said I need a person with some credential in Blood Bows to answer the question to make it official. So that is what I am doing.

quietdominator - Oct 25, 2013 - 09:51 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Regeneration

verrinho wrote:

In the rules it is stated that you have to roll for regeneration "after the roll on the casualty table and after any apothecary roll, if allowed." so there's no point of discussion on that Smile

on top of that it is written that "on a 4-6 the player will heal the injury after a short period of time to re-organise himself, and IS PLACED ON THE RESERVES BOX INSTEAD."

Wink

Verrinho that is the point of discussion. How long after can you wait to roll. I agree it implies immediately but it does not say that. So you can wait for as long as you want just as long as it is done after. At least that is what I am being told in the league. Now do you under stand my confusion.

sann0638 - Oct 25, 2013 - 09:57 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

OK, so the answer is that no-one in Blood Bowl world (unless they post here otherwise) plays that you can wait before doing the regeneration roll. I wrote the rules clarifications document on thenaf.net, which tries to bring together all the possible areas of debate and clarify them. This has never come up before. The only final answer can come from GalakStarscraper on TFF, whose word is usually taken as the final answer. I have sent him a PM. Once he answers I will add it to the Clarifications document, which hopefully your commissioner will accept if he doesn't take this thread as argument enough.

kikurasis - Oct 25, 2013 - 10:34 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

Technically, if it doesn't say "immediately after" or "before something", I guess you could roll it anytime up until the end of the match. Everyone generally plays that we do it immediately because it is on our minds and the player has a chance to get a player back for the next drive. I can see a situation when a regeneration team is getting beat up so bad that they don't want the player back that game, so hold off until the end of the game to roll it. Quite interesting (and only valid in non-resurrection environments).

quietdominator - Oct 25, 2013 - 01:49 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

Thank you for your comments. I appreciate your efforts.

Gaixo - Oct 25, 2013 - 05:32 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

From the other forum.

Gaixo wrote:

To add some context, the person posing the question is upset because I only recalled that Wilhelm Chaney had regen after a drive had ended at halftime. He "allowed" (his choice of words, and I honestly thought he was joking) me to make the roll at that time. When the game was over he decided that this had a major impact on the game, despite the fact that Wilhelm was sat on the line and cas'ed again in Turn 10.

I'm more than willing to hear differing opinions, but don't currently believe that I've cheated him.

The contention of quietdominator's commissioner (that's me!) and league mates is not that the responses on the timing of Regeneration are incorrect, but that the timing of Regeneration is largely inconsequential (unless apothecaries or possibly Igors are involved). In this specific case, there is also the fact that quietdominator explicitly allowed the late roll.

One league member also contends that Regeneration is not an optional skill and that there is no discretion in rolling it, and that therefore both parties have made a mistake if it isn't rolled immediately. I don't agree with that, really, but figured someone might want to comment on it.

Any "hostility" toward quietdominator is largely unrelated to this specific issue.

Verrinho - Oct 25, 2013 - 06:46 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Regeneration

quietdominator wrote:

verrinho wrote:

In the rules it is stated that you have to roll for regeneration "after the roll on the casualty table and after any apothecary roll, if allowed." so there's no point of discussion on that Smile

on top of that it is written that "on a 4-6 the player will heal the injury after a short period of time to re-organise himself, and IS PLACED ON THE RESERVES BOX INSTEAD."

Wink

I did unterstand your confusion, but you shouldn't have had it reading the rules correctly.

as one more point to what I'm writing, just read point 2 of page 23. "skills may be used an unlimited number of times PER ACTION." so you use skills when you're on the field. since you use your skills when you're on the field, before going to the CAS box you CAN roll a die to see if you go to that box, or to the reserves box.

PS: look at page 11, it says that "if the roll succeds (roll for armour), then the opposing coach is allowed to roll on the injury table ..."
you roll immediatly or not? it is not written that you roll immediatly, so I can tell you tha you should roll it, let me think, in 2-3 working days might be ok? Smile

GalakStarscraper - Oct 25, 2013 - 09:17 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

To answer the question directly: the roll is meant to be rolled immedately after the CAS roll (unless an Apothecary is used and then it would be immediately after the Apothecary). This was discussed and the wording changed so that it was supposed to be clear that it was part of the series of rolls happening right then. Not waiting for some future unnamed period. This is greatly reinforced by the fact that it say the player is PLACED into the Reserves box instead (ie they never go to the Casualty box ... which could only happen if the roll was immediate ... if you were allowed to wait ... then the skill would say the player is MOVED into the Reserve box from the Casualty box when the skill is used later. So there the text of the skill full reinforces the intent which was immediate.

Now all this said ... if you honestly forgot to roll for regeneration in a league ... I personally would let you roll for it if it was an honest mistake. I guess if you have some type of hard core official league they could say you could not ... then their word is absolutely final. Commissioners always have the final say. However if you delibrately were not rolling your regeneration roll immediately for some wierd reason ... then yeah ... I'd probably tell you too late and have the game carry on.

Tom

quietdominator - Oct 26, 2013 - 01:01 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

In our match when he forgot to roll the Regeneration and he asked if he could roll it late I said yes. Because he has been playing longer than I and if he thinks it is alright to roll it late then fine what can I say. I was not happy but hey he is the commissioner he knows best. I made a joke on the forum about it and it was taken the wrong way. I remembered being told on this forum that it did make a difference but it was a year ago. So I came on here to get clarification after he told me to come on here and ask the question. I have never said I was cheated. I do not consider someone misinterpreting the rule as cheating. I just came on this chat to find out the official rule if there is one. So I will have it next time if it ever happen again. That was all I ever intended to do. Thank you for your help.

Gaixo - Oct 26, 2013 - 05:26 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

Again, no one has disagreed with quietdominator about when the roll is supposed to be made.

Deadshane - Oct 26, 2013 - 09:57 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

The fact that the league in question is generally a FRIENDLY one with easy going games makes this whole line of discussion distasteful. Now its been brought here to the general bloodbowl public. We thought it was handled on our local forums, the OP now brings it here b/c he is dissatisfied still.

It would be interesting to see what the official ruling would be assuming both players forgot about a regeneration roll. A regeneration roll without the possible benefit of an apoth or Igor as this one was. As the event in question was during a league game where games are generally extremely friendly and there are no useful prizes at the end of a season, I'm left wondering why this is such an issue with the OP. (this discussion has been going on in some form somewhere for weeks now)

But then I can answer my own question.

The OP is the only player in the league who's games need to be offficiated by the league commissioner in order to keep them civil. Several players have requested this. He also generally has to come up with some reason or "loophole" as to why he lost a game. I myself walked away from a game from the OP because of being accused of cheating in game...all of this in what is supposed to be a FRIENDLY league game. Games of bloodbowl, while awsome fun, are simply not worth having ones integrity questioned during in such a manner.

I will be interested to see what an "official" ruling would be on this issue of a forgotten regen roll without the benefit of Igor or apoth. Although, in a FRIENDLY league game where both players agreed to allow the role it is largely irrelevant, although possibly not in the mind of the OP...who refuses to drop this issue which we thought, as a league, was closed.

The OP would do well to remember that first and formost, Bloodbowl is a GAME, and a social activity to be shared with friends. In a FRIENDLY social setting, one tries to behave in an acceptable manner. Any "hostility" that the league has leveled at the OP is a direct result of his own behavior in league games and online.

I apologise for ranting and going off topic a bit, but I feel our leagues dirty laundry has been aired here needlessly and I myself have found myself angered by the amount of discussion that this simple issue has been allowed when a FRIENDLY answer was the simplest and most appropriate one.

Game on boys!

Deadshane - Oct 26, 2013 - 11:08 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

Darkson - Oct 26, 2013 - 02:06 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

From this, and other threads the OP has started (or Necro'd), he has come across as a bit of a rules lawyer, and a bad one at that.

quietdominator - Oct 26, 2013 - 03:47 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

I am not going to add to the character assassination that is going on. The only thing I am interested in is the answer to the question on the rules.

A further question was asked as to Regeneration being an involuntary skill page 14 says, Quote "Unless stated otherwise in the skill description you never have to use a skill just because the playerâ€™s got it," The Regeneration skill description does not say it is involuntary.

Deadshane - Oct 26, 2013 - 04:40 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

quietdominator wrote:

The only thing I am interested in is the answer to the question on the rules.

That's a big part of your ruleslawyering problem here. You are so concerned with the exact wording of the rules (however irrelevant they might be in this case), that you are oblivious to how sad this little extended tantrum of yours makes you look....and it reflects on OUR league unfortunately.

The thing I find EXTREMELY amusing is that even if you were vindicated, and it was shown that under no circumstances upon pain of death that no-one should EVER back up and roll a regen check is how you would behave after learning this info.

....for example, even knowing this, you might play my khemri, injure a TG....YOU WOULD ABSOLUTELY want to back up if you forgot the second decay induced injury roll.

...makes me laugh....or it would if it wasn't so sad.

Deadshane - Oct 26, 2013 - 05:39 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

quietdominator wrote:

The only thing I am interested in is the answer to the question on the rules.

quietdominator - Oct 26, 2013 - 06:08 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

I am on here to learn the rules. Please refrain from inventing character assassinations.

Thank you.

kikurasis - Oct 26, 2013 - 11:34 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

From page 24 in the rulebook:

"In a league, the Commissionerâ€™s word is LAW. He is allowed to change or modify any of the Blood Bowl rules as he sees fit, including any of the League Rules that follow. In the immortal words of fellow game designer Tuomas Pirinen: If the League Commissioner says that Dwarfs can now fly, your reply must be 'Yes Sir! How high?' If you donâ€™t like the way a commissioner runs his league, you have two choices; put up with it, or leave the league. Arguing with the commissioner is NOT an option. â€˜Nuff said, I hope."

That should be enough to put this to rest.

quietdominator - Oct 27, 2013 - 01:29 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Regeneration

The question has already been answered thank you.