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Rules Questions - Throw Team Mate

kalten - Jul 14, 2003 - 01:30 PM
Post subject: Throw Team Mate

Hi all,
I have found myself wondering about the things I have read here about SPPs and the Throw team mate skill.

In all the leagues and one off games I have ever played, if a player successfully lands after being thrown we have awarded an SPP for the 'completion' of the throw. It has never entered our heads that this is in any way incorrect.

A Throw is counted as a Pass action and the rules state that a completed pass is considered a 'completion' and is thus rewarded by a SPP.

I know I'm gonna have a good debate about this, but I think it needs clearing up.

your thought?

Tutenkharnage - Jul 14, 2003 - 01:47 PM
Post subject:

There's no "good debate" to be had. A Completion is defined in the LRB:

"A player who makes an accurate pass that is caught by another player earns 1 Star Player Point."

Nothing about TTM meets this description in its entirety.

-Chet

kalten - Jul 14, 2003 - 02:08 PM
Post subject:

Tutenkharnage wrote:

Well quoted my friend, but your statement about debate is wrong!
In the living rulebook (as in the original rulebook for this version of the game) it states, and I quote
"The throw is treated like a normal pass..." it then goes on to say that if the thrower has the pass skill he may use it on the throw, though he may not use accurate!

From the above and from the way the rest of page 23 in the living rule book reads the throw is treated EXACTLY like a pass and if complete is thus to be treated as a 'completion'.

To back up my aurgument a bit more:
The throw has all the same charataristics of a pass in that a 'pass' must be made and a 'catch' (landing) must be made. Indeed the throw takes up the pass action for the turn - if it wasn't subject to the same rules for reward as this, why have it treated as such? The skills needed and the penalty to the distance allowed outweigh the benefit of the player being hurled up-pitch with the ball, so all in all the Throw is a Pass...

I await your return comments

(I have to mention here that I'm being hard only to get to the bottom of this - it seems a lot of people are reading grey and seeing black and white about this)

Darkson - Jul 14, 2003 - 02:29 PM
Post subject:

As Chet says (and he's on the BBRC, so he should know Wink

), a successful pass for SPP needs an accurate pass and a sucessful catch.

A TTM has a accurate pass and a sucessful landing. OK, where's the catch roll? Hmm, don't see it. Therefore no SPP.

In a way, I wish it did (my troll might learn something then Evil or Very Mad

, but it doesn't, and BBRC members, JJ and Andy Hall have all said it doesn't so......

kalten - Jul 14, 2003 - 03:51 PM
Post subject:

mmmm...I see...

Obviously I'm wrong/stupid because I'm not on the BBRC? Evil or Very Mad

...

Please take the time to think about it...In an older version of the game we had player stats for the big stars like Morg and Griff and even Bolgrot. If my memory serves I remember that there was a section that detailed number of completions, amongst other things. Are we to assume (in the spirit of the game) that these stats are completly useless these days? did Ripper Bolgrot really make all those completions, and do you really think Morg would actually pass the ball once he's got it? No I think not really, however those stats could come from throwing players successfully, as I believe they did. Therefore you can see where (in the spirit of the game) my view on the throw team mate SPP comes from.

Now in my league we do it my way, and thats up to me and my players, in your leagues you do it your way - it doesn't even matter for NAF tournys as they mostly (if not all) use a system without SPPs anyway.

I belive that you did miss my point in my last post though. The act of throwing a player does have all the same parts as a ball throw, just with different termanology to make it clear that its a player and not a ball that is thrown, even the sequence of events is the same with the same modifiers applying to the rolls. "An accurate pass is called a 'completion' or complete pass." So whats an accurate throw called?

Personaly even though I don't play with teams that use big players (well not very often if ever) I feel that the action should be rewarded as it is no less hard than to throw a pass. I just realised that you 'throw' a pass - the section in the rulebook is titled 'throwing the football' and has a section ttiled throwing! How can you sit there and say the 2 things are totaly different? It the same action with a different name!

Why deny the player a reward for the achivement of actually completing the throw - it is generally harder to do than a pass as the highest I've seen a big guy agility is 3 and thats Morg! Remeber that I'm still saying the throw has to be accurate to be awarded a SPP.

Another thing - note all the (in the spirit of the game) I put in. I feel there is a bit too much rules lawering and not enough BloodBowl fever in these forums sometimes....

skummy - Jul 14, 2003 - 04:22 PM
Post subject:

Darkson wrote:

In a way, I wish it did (my troll might learn something then Evil or Very Mad

, but it doesn't, and BBRC members, JJ and Andy Hall have all said it doesn't so......

Actually, our league has an email from Andy saying that this does count as a completion, but I've had this discussion with BBRC members before. No completion point for throwing the little guys is the rule. While the mechanics are similar, it's not the same thing. Some leagues give completion points for successful handoffs, but that's not intended to be the purpose of the LRB.

Kalten: Accusing someone of being a lawyer is fightin' words where I come from! Wink

We don't think you are stupid or wrong for not being part of the BBRC. The LRB also tells you that you can run your league any way you want. These are the rules for league play though, so don't be surprised if you see it done differently elsewhere.

Doubleskulls - Jul 14, 2003 - 05:05 PM
Post subject:

kalten wrote:

mmmm...I see...

Obviously I'm wrong/stupid because I'm not on the BBRC?

No, but any BBRC's members interpretation carries a lot more weight than yours. Even though some of their "clarifications" seem bizarre (e.g. where is the justification for Big Guys to be allowed to use Leader RRs?)

However there isn't much you can do but shrug and get on with it.

BTW I actually agree that there is no SPPs for TTM.

GalakStarscraper - Jul 14, 2003 - 07:24 PM
Post subject:

As a long time stunty coach ... let me add my vote that it should not count for SPPs.

Justification under current LRB 2.0 rules:

Halfling team with an rookie Ogre and a team reroll available:

Ogre throws Halfling to quick pass range for a 1 SPP completion:
29.6% chance of accurate pass with successful landing or (1 in 3.4 chance of success) ...... (33.3% chance of accurate * 88.9% chance of landing)

Now compare this to the same Ogre trying to get 2 SPPs for a block against a Human Lineman:
5.6% chance of success or (1 in 17.9 chance of success). (55.6% of a Pow or Pow/Dodge * 10% of breaking AV and getting a casualty)

NOW if you add the fact that Throw TeamMate passes do not result in turnovers if the player did not have the ball and do your REALLY think that this should be allowed. Cause if I was in your league with a Fling or Goblin team, I would spend my first 4 games with one Ogre in the back field throwing a Fling as the first move of each of my turns ... I should be able to get one Ogre to 2 skills and another to 1 skill in 4 games just from TTM plays ... heck of a lot easier than blocking. My Halfling team in the PBeMBBL has only managed 4 Casualties in 5 games ... I could have racked up a heck of a lot more SPPs with this rule. Screw winning ... I'll spend my first season throwing flings and then the 2nd season trying to win with my Block, Pro Ogres I developed from free TTM SPPs.

Just trying to show you this from a Stunty coach's point of view since you said you aren't one.

NOW ... finally clarification ... if you want to say that the Big Guy gets 1 SPP for an accurate TTM play with a successful landing if the thown player had the ball (ie it a turnover risk play) ... I'd consider it. But really, the Goblin/Halfling teams are meant to be horrible ... so giving them this option is really a leg up the teams just really don't need even if you required the Stuny to have the ball when he was thrown.

Galak

Tutenkharnage - Jul 15, 2003 - 06:38 AM
Post subject:

kalten wrote:

mmmm...I see...

Obviously I'm wrong/stupid because I'm not on the BBRC? Evil or Very Mad

Actually, there are days I feel wrong/stupid for being on said committee Wink

Player stats and such are not good rationales for rules interpretation. They're fluff, plain and simple. You might feel this is a "spirit of the game" argument, but that's relative: Your attempt to justify a rulesy area of the game with a fluff piece from Second Edition strikes me as "lawyerly," for example.

Similarly, the rules for a Completion are laid out in black and white. TTM doesn't fit. An accurate pass that is caught by another member of your team is a completion. (Incidentally, this means that an inaccurate pass that bounces to another team member is not a completion, nor is an accurate pass that gets dropped back to the throwing player for a catch.)

All that said, how you play it in your league is how you play it in your league! House rules are cool, not evil. (Well, some of 'em are.) If that works for you guys, that's cool with me. And it should be cool with every other coach here.

Cheers!

-Chet

kalten - Jul 15, 2003 - 12:51 PM
Post subject:

ok...

1st - sorry for getting miffed back then - it was a reaction to "and he should know" comment that got me - I don't like that sort of reasoning in any discussion.

2nd - The points put forward since then have gone a long way to swaying me to the point I was arguing agaisnt! the % chance of the throw being complete and the way in which it can be used to maximum efficiency had not occured to me and to be honest, never would have! I have always played for fun, not to be the best so have never taken the time to work such things out.

Chet's comment about interpretation and fluff holds a lot of weight becasue of the relative point of view I have taken to this debate and as such I can no longer hold my arguement up, or if I did, it would just be silly and provocative and to be honest I hate aurguements! (you'd never believe me! Smile

)

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to read and comment here. I must admit that from the black and white (with grey!) rules point of view that must be taken for these points, I was wrong!

I will continue to use my 1 SPP for a complete TTM in my league, but will review it if we get anyone abusing it (note that none of my players are wise enough to work out what Galak knows!) Wink

I hope to be able to clear further things up with you - which leads me to another question....

Throwing a bomb - if it misses the target square, is it a turnover?

cheers,

kalten

Darkson - Jul 15, 2003 - 10:10 PM
Post subject:

I take you mean an exploding bomb? If that's what you mean then no, it's not a turnover (and isn't it great when it scatters into your opponents carefully constructed cage? Twisted Evil

Ratin_Mutants - Jul 17, 2003 - 12:19 AM
Post subject:

I would love to have a TTM Spp for every tme I throw a Gobo.... hmmm 6 throws, And the first skill already. But it should not give one SPP. the only Comp. is when you throw the ball to a teammate, not the teammate... but it´s still not impossible.. I have a Treeman that has actually made 2 int, in 5 matches, and 2 comp. (lucky 6.. he he)But the most of his Spp are still cas...

kalten - Jul 19, 2003 - 08:24 AM
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Darkson wrote:

I take you mean an exploding bomb? If that's what you mean then no, it's not a turnover (and isn't it great when it scatters into your opponents carefully constructed cage? Twisted Evil

Hell yeah! Smile

hee hee

dwarfcoach - Jul 19, 2003 - 02:33 PM
Post subject:

Well I reckon your rule about gaining 1 spp for an 'accurate' throw is great!!

It makes sense to me that the more he practices, even 'Big Guys' start to get better eventually....

As for people abusing it in the way Galak was saying, if somebody playing in a league with me was up to that sort of nonsense then they wouldn't get many matches from me (or most of the gamers I know) as (in my humble opinion) that is

"Simply not cricket"

(translation: takes the fun out of the game as concentrating on the letter of the rules rather than the idea behind the rules...)

GalakStarscraper - Jul 19, 2003 - 09:17 PM
Post subject:

dwarfcoach wrote:

As for people abusing it in the way Galak was saying, if somebody playing in a league with me was up to that sort of nonsense then they wouldn't get many matches from me (or most of the gamers I know) as (in my humble opinion) that is

Really ... huh ... I never minded when I've played against Elf teams and they've thrown 3 to 4 quick passes in their back field after kickoffs to get the 1 SPP to players needing 1 or 2 more for their next skill ... in fact its a common thing in the 2 leagues I play/played in... what's the difference between that and this???

Galak

dwarfcoach - Jul 20, 2003 - 08:55 AM
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No difference....

There're both well dodge and I think should be frowned upon whenever they happen.

Sorry, but it just does not make much sense...

PRE-MATCH TEAM TALK, COACH TO PLAYERS:

"Right, if we win the coin toss it will be the 7_3_1 set up, if they win we'll be using the 3_5_3 formation.

And remember you positional players and guys with high AG; ensure you make a couple of pointless completions behind our lines, ok?"

Hmmmmmmmmm Shocked

Darkson - Jul 20, 2003 - 09:45 AM
Post subject:

In the same way One-turn scorers and stalling should be frowned upon?

Sorry, geting a bit niggly now Embarassed

dwarfcoach - Jul 20, 2003 - 05:10 PM
Post subject:

Well kindof.....

Well it's only what I think really. I have probably done such a thing in my long (and sometimes colourfull) Bloodbowl playing history, but it does kinda get on my nerves when people push the limits of the rules all the time. Sure, it 'could' happen, but for God sake, just cause you could do it doesn't mean you HAVE to.

(oh and by the way, one turn scorers are fair, stalling is ok in certain circumstances but I normally don't approve....)

Mordredd - Jul 21, 2003 - 04:22 AM
Post subject:

I don't have a problem with it myself. It's just good practice, like ensuring that you score with the player that needs 3 SPP for their next skill. And it's a bit of a risk. I have seen people fail to score, or even lose the ball and concede an easy TD, from dropping one of those quick passes.

I don't think it's that unrealistic either. Have you not heard of mocking the opposition? "We're so good we're going to play catch in the backfield while our linesmen slap you down. Then we're going to score an easy TD, and then humiliate you again in the second half."

GalakStarscraper - Jul 21, 2003 - 09:18 AM
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Father Tim coaches the Dark City Dukes, a Dark Elf team in the MBBL. It is very common for him to make 3 to 5 back field passes a game to get the SPPs.

He got one of the most skill balanced rosters I've ever seen.

This is his team after 14 games played:
http://www.blood-bowl.net/MBBL/Season3/DarkCityDukes.htm

And his doing those back field passes has never bothered me one bit.

Galak

kalten - Jul 24, 2003 - 10:15 AM
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Intrest topic....One turn touchdowns & Stalling...
One turners are great - it gives you something to think about - makes it more of a game of chess, is he gonna go for it, or is he gonna hang back and try to punch through once I've overextended...
You'll find that the teams that can get one turners tend to all have the low armour values - elves, skaven, and even goblins or halflings (no I wont mention Snotlings...hee hee) Stalling is part of the game - ANY sports game. It isn't pretty, but it can win you the match!

westonwyse - Jul 24, 2003 - 08:19 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:

Father Tim coaches the Dark City Dukes, a Dark Elf team in the MBBL. It is very common for him to make 3 to 5 back field passes a game to get the SPPs.

We've got a few teams who do the same thing. It gets their passing skills up, but quite frankly, they just aren't that good at making TDs as a result.

On the original topic, one very good reason for Big Guys to not get SPPsfor TTM is that in order to have a completed pass, you have to have the ball. That's a lot harder than just standing next to one of 10 gobbos on the pitch. Heck, you could even do it while the other team was running a TD. At least to wheedle points with your passers, you have to have the ball. And if you drop it, not only does your turn end, but I'l throw my gobbo in there to get it and run a TD. Cool

Raven3001 - Sep 23, 2003 - 07:09 PM
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Quote:

note that none of my players are wise enough to work out what Galak knows!)

just stumbled across this discussion, since i'm the only player in Kalten's league who uses big guys and gobbo's i can see why it came up. however, my friend you underestimate me! I've known this for years, don't confuse sporting play with ignorance. Wink

next you'll be saying that we come last in tournaments or something....