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Rules Questions - Kick-off result of Perfect Defence

mosalva - Oct 03, 2003 - 12:23 AM
Post subject: Kick-off result of Perfect Defence

In the last league game I played I rolled a 4 on the Kick-off, allowing my opponent to re-organise his players. Now, after reorganisation, does he still have to have 3 players on the line of scrimmage? He claimed that the match starts when the kick-off is rolled, and as long as there are three on the line it's legal for him to modify the set-up. It was a pity because I had a troll and 5 chaos warriors with tackle and mighty blow...

Khaine - Oct 03, 2003 - 12:46 AM
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As far as I know you still must have 3 on the line. I mean I would play it that way. The rule is worded strangely but it does say must setup again to me this should read "Must setup again using the normal setup rules" I'm just starting out again but it seems as this would be the way It will be played in my league because I say so <and I'm the commish>.

Mordredd - Oct 03, 2003 - 04:12 AM
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Quote:

Perfect Defence: The kicking team's coach may reorganise his players - in other words he can set them up again. The receiving team must remain in the set-up chosen by their coach.

Obviously this means using the normal set up rules, i.e. no less than 3 on the line and no more than 2 in the wide zones.

Perfect defence is a kind of retrospective way of allowing the defending coach to 'predict' the offensive teams set up. Like jumping back in time to before play had started, so any argument that play has begun so you have no restrictions on set up is quite bogus.

Tutenkharnage - Oct 03, 2003 - 06:38 AM
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He has to set up using the normal rules.

-Chet

Darkson - Oct 03, 2003 - 04:11 PM
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So I take that to mean if I (stupidly) put my Kick skill player on the LOS, he can no longer use the skill?

Bevan - Oct 03, 2003 - 06:30 PM
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Darkson wrote:

So I take that to mean if I (stupidly) put my Kick skill player on the LOS, he can no longer use the skill?

Yes, I made that mistake (once) and couldn't use the Kick skill. Rolling Eyes

Perfect defense just means that the kicking teams sets up after the receiving team instead of before. All other rules still apply for legal setups.

Cervidal - Oct 04, 2003 - 04:04 AM
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I know this is rules lawyerish and kinda picky, but doesn't the ball scatter before you re-set up your defense? Which means your kicker can now be mispositioned? As far as I understood it...

Set up teams
Place Ball
Roll Kickoff result
Resolve Kick Scatter
Resolve Kickoff result
Bounce ball if no one is underneath

Am I mistaken?

Doubleskulls - Oct 04, 2003 - 08:05 AM
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Cervidal wrote:

I know this is rules lawyerish and kinda picky, but doesn't the ball scatter before you re-set up your defense? Which means your kicker can now be mispositioned?

That's my understanding too.

Darkson - Oct 04, 2003 - 08:15 AM
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Yeah, I thought about that after I asked the question above, as that's the way it works in PBeM as well. So it's more of an "audible" call in American football?

Must have been a damn high kick sometimes though.

dwarfcoach - Oct 04, 2003 - 10:06 AM
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Doubleskulls wrote:

Cervidal wrote:

I know this is rules lawyerish and kinda picky, but doesn't the ball scatter before you re-set up your defense? Which means your kicker can now be mispositioned?

That's my understanding too.

Yep, 100% what the book says. Not really a hugh problem, as I know if my opponent made that tiny error and wanted to swap a player 1 for 1 to correct the error then I would be fine with that anyway, let alone a perfect defence....

Lycos - Oct 05, 2003 - 02:07 PM
Post subject: Re: Kick-off result of Perfect Defence

mosalva wrote:

It was a pity because I had a troll and 5 chaos warriors with tackle and mighty blow...

Am I missing something, but arent you only allowed up to 4 Chaos Warriors?

Cervidal - Oct 05, 2003 - 03:59 PM
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dwarfcoach wrote:

I know if my opponent made that tiny error and wanted to swap a player 1 for 1 to correct the error then I would be fine with that anyway, let alone a perfect defence....

That's just the thing, though. Even if he put his kicker on the LOS or a wide zone after being legally set up before the Perfect Defense, he can still use the Kick skill. It might not sound right, but for the sake of consistency in the rules, that's how it goes. In my interpretation, anyways.

Tutenkharnage - Oct 06, 2003 - 06:39 AM
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You scatter the ball before applying the result. So long as the player with Kick is in a legal position at the time of the scatter, you can use the Kick skill. No "interpretation" required.

-Chet

RIPNEI - Oct 12, 2003 - 01:56 AM
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also you get to set-up your players again... thus you can switch reserves... you could even put your kicker back in the dugout!

Bevan - Oct 18, 2003 - 03:42 PM
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RIPNEI wrote:

also you get to set-up your players again... thus you can switch reserves... you could even put your kicker back in the dugout!

This seems a bit too beardy to me, Rolling Eyes

so I'd like to suggest the following interpretation -

When you re-set up using Perfect Defence you must use a legal setup, 3 players on the LOS, no more than 2 in the wide zones. I think we all agree on this.

I suggest that a "legal setup" includes - if a player uses Kick they must be on the field, but not in the wide zones or on the LOS. Therefore if Kick was used to scatter the ball, the Perfect Defence setup is not legal unless the Kick player is still in a legal position.

SuM - Oct 20, 2003 - 05:06 AM
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I'm hitching a ride off of this post,
to add a question about "Kick" Skill Vs. "Bad Kick" result on the Kick-Off table...

Ok, every player is in place...
You place the ball...
1 of your players with "Kick" skill in off the LoS, and is not in the Wide Outs...

You roll on the Kick Off table, and you roll "Bad Kick"...
Does this result over ride the Kick Skill???
- or -
Does it still become a Bad kick and then you half the ending score on the dice????

Indigo - Oct 20, 2003 - 05:48 AM
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All that happens is you roll 2d6 and halve the result, so in effect it's a "normal" kick

Doubleskulls - Oct 20, 2003 - 06:36 AM
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Indigo wrote:

All that happens is you roll 2d6 and halve the result, so in effect it's a "normal" kick

Not quite. It is 2D6, halved rounding down. Which means the kick is more accurate than a normal kick (just D6). The average result is 3.25, instead of 3.5 (only a '12' gives you 6 squares).