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Strategy and Tactics - Help with the Amazons
ddouglas - Feb 19, 2003 - 04:05 PM
Post subject: Help with the Amazons
Hi
I am a new amazon player and while I find I can defend quite well, I have a hell of a time scoring. I find it hard to move the ball as most teams I am playing against are faster and at MV 6 I can not get away. I find this tops the passing game. I find the running game hard as well as st 3 and av 7 makes forming a cage hard to do. Most of the league teams I play have a Big guy as well which really sucks up the blocks.
I have 4 blisters in the team and some skills such as guard for them.
I am looking for ideas and formations to help score, what should I go for running the ball or thorwing.
ddouglas
Squiggoth - Feb 20, 2003 - 01:08 AM
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All your girls have got dodge, right? Use it!
(Yeah, I just found out how useful that skill is 
)
Lucy - Feb 20, 2003 - 02:55 AM
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Dodging against dwarves is useless. Simply because of the amount off tackle they have. I also think it's a difficult team to perform with, but wordlwide, coaches have proven their worth. I just haven't figured it out as well. Especially against dwarves I think they have no chance becuase their prime skill is simply not present during the match.....
Lucy
Squiggoth - Feb 20, 2003 - 04:47 AM
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Yeah, the same problems with my Goblins on Dwarf teams, but Orc teams have Black Orcs to punch those Tacklin' Dwarfs out of the way...
On the other hand, an Amazon throwing game might work against Dwarfs as they're quite slow... Just try to stay out of base contact!
Lucy - Feb 20, 2003 - 05:29 AM
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Squiggoth wrote:
Yeah, the same problems with my Goblins on Dwarf teams, but Orc teams have Black Orcs to punch those Tacklin' Dwarfs out of the way...
On the other hand, an Amazon throwing game might work against Dwarfs as they're quite slow... Just try to stay out of base contact!
Dwarves are quick enough to reach all your players. Unless you set them up near your own TD line 
Staying out of contact is impossible.
So, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how the ladies can survive/win a game against dwarves....
Lucy
Squiggoth - Feb 20, 2003 - 06:32 AM
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Concentrate your offense - pick off single isolated players, make sure you deal with the Troll Slayers and Blitzers asap (by fouling, kicking or anything whatsoever...). Does that help?
Come to think of it, I might not be the best person to teach tactics...
Lucy - Feb 20, 2003 - 06:42 AM
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That sounds like a good tactic for everybody though. When I'm playing dwarves with my undead, that's exactly what I do......
The only option I can think off is get agility players quicky and hope for some +'s on your MA. 
Lucy
Sputnik - Feb 20, 2003 - 08:03 AM
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Just a basic idea (not a tactic as presented here) which is derived from my skinks... 
Dwarf teams usually field two blitzers, two slayers, at least one runner and maybe an ogre, all of them without tackle. That means only 5 (or 6) of them have tackle and you can dodge away from the rest "as usual". If you get away from one of them and can get an assist one one of the Longbeards, you get two dice...don't follow up. Next time he closes in you get two dice again and can move the other Lady away (of course not following up) ...if that is what you wanted.
If you keep the tacklers down, you should be able to move a bit....AND use your dodge skill. He is then moreover unmobile with his tacklers and since you should be faster you could use it to your advantage as usual. No matter whether dwarfs or not.
If you have no MB, why do you even try a blocking war?? You may be lucky or not but against Dwarfs Cas are mostly not an option.To take out the slayers doesn't help your greatest strentgh, your dodge skill. And to loose Ladies via fouling only helps the dwarf more...
Always play to your strength first!
I hope you got the idea and that helps a bit... 
Sputnik
Lucy - Feb 20, 2003 - 08:49 AM
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Look, it's no good bloocking when your opponent even has blitzers with tackle and an ogre with (you guessed it) Those lame guys usually have guard as well, so getting 2D blocks isn't so easy.
Of course you shouldn't follow them up, but as long as he forces you to block, you can't move. even if you want to dodge with all your ladies (say you meet to many saurus in one turn) than it's expected that one of the ladies will fall down, after rerolling. You still got a 1 in 9 change that a dodge will fail (after a reroll) so it's bound to happen several times in a match.....
Knocking down his tacklers and moving around sounds to easy to me. Even a dwarfcoach can keep up. If he's able to put one dwarf next to a dame, then you're simply screwed. Too many dodges to produces soem 2D blocks. Maybe you can try to explain it to me in No'ham.
Lucy
Sputnik - Feb 20, 2003 - 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Look, it's no good bloocking when your opponent even has blitzers with tackle and an ogre with (you guessed it)
Wow, an Ogre with tackle! Didn't see many of those....and I start getting your problem... 
So, let's get away from that general "I am unstoppable with my offense 'cause I know Nuffle's BIG brother" and more into detail:
What are the skills of your key players then? How many have guard, pro or anything which helps (no, not the suicide skill 
)?? How did you try to move the ball around so far?? And what was the specific problem on offense agaist those dwarfs?? Only that they all have block and tackle? That you get involved in a blocking war? And do you fear the ogre and hide in the cupboard once you see him??
And finally, no offense meant, but does this dwarf player have a rather personal relationship and strong feelings for (shall I say against) your Ladies?? An ogre with tackle, tstststs, it's been a while now... 
I know of coaches building up league teams to basically win against a special other team (or that sort of teams). 
Sputnik
ZanzerTem - Feb 20, 2003 - 09:32 AM
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Having played both Dwarves and 'Zons regularly, these are my opinions.
Dwarves are tough on 'Zons. Period. There is no argueing that. High armor, Guard/Mighty Blow, tons of Tackle. All of this is a nightmare for any "dodge to safety" team. There are a FEW things that can be done to help out your ladies.
1) BLOCK. Block,block,block,block,block,block,block,block,block,block! Block combined with dodge only gives them a 2 in 6 chance of knocking you over, and thats even if they do have tackle. They have a 1 in 6 chance of falling over themselves. Put it on your catchers. Run them straight downfield, along with a few Blitzers, and I guarantee one will be standing by your next turn. If they are covered in a tackle zone, blitz with your Blitzer, push/knock them away, run up, pass, score. If you fumble the pass/catch, you should have enough people around the ball to pick it back up on your following turn.
2) Stat increases help. When they come, TAKE THEM.
3) Your rerolls are cheap for a reason.
4) 'Zons are squishy. When dodging, make all of your non/Tackle dodges 1st, then start dodging with the ladies that are covered in Tackle. It's better to hurt yourself falling then letting them do it. When you start getting linewomen with BLOCK, this becomes less of a problem, and you can start standing toe to toe with opponents.
5) Pile On = Plague. Kill, mame, or just plain avoid opponents that have this skill. Mighty Blow is bad too.
Against Dwarven teams, use your Blitzers to seek and destroy lone players, especially Runners without Block. If you can take them out, they lose heavily in the speed department. It also eliminates their only player with Sure hands, making the ball difficult to pick up.
Dwarves are an attrition team. They win every time. Don't let them force you into an attrition war and you will win. Keep a wall of 'Zons between their cage and the end zone, use guerilla tactics against lone dwarves to slow the cage, and make them take chances. When dwarves are forced to play elf ball, they lose, and badly.
Lucy - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:16 AM
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Take a zon team with 150 against dwarves 150. I'm pretty positive that you'll survive the first few rounds, but once your key players are locked, you're simply forced to do 1D blocks. His team probably has more guard at that moment and several MB's. Once an action fails, and that's bound to happen because their blocking skills are better and you have trouble dodging, EVEN if you do your best option dodges first. You have simply no skill in outpacing him and running behind the dwarves is difficult if you have to run past tackle zones with tackle skilled dwarves.
Actually, I simply think I have to see it happen once and learn from that because nothing you said has convinced me so far.
One of you say block, the other says don't....
Tell me please... I just don't see it yet...
Lucy
ZanzerTem - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:25 AM
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The only time 'Zons should ever block is when they can almost guarantee that the opponent will not be standing next to them afterwards. Only block when you have the advantage.
Turn all of you 'Zons into Blodgers and they will have problems knocking you over.
But, granted, they are still at a great disadvantage against Dwarves. There is no arguing that. I was just trying to give advice to (sorta) even the playing field =/
On the other hand, Dwarves are at a severe disadvantage when playing high move & AGI teams, like Elves. So, it goes both ways.
ddouglas - Feb 20, 2003 - 01:39 PM
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Dwarves aside, what can I do to score TD's. I have tried to pass and get my catchers either hammered or get them caught by the pursuit. I have tried to run with some success but after a turn or two I find that I can not stand up to the blocks and start to fall apart.
The only times I have scored are when I got an interception and ran it back, and when I threw the ball long down field and did not expect to catch it and have a player down there pick it up and run it in. It works against skaven as their fast players are only str 2.
I do dodge away from the line and the other side but can not get away from most teams dodging away helps stop blocks against me but I can not penetrate the opponents line and then get away, the holes I get and the dodges I set up are good for a turn ot two after that they swamp the ball carrier and get the ball. High Ag teams just run in and steal it and big guys and high str teams smash there way in.
Maybe I should try to surround the ball more and force more swamping???
I also find that not having sure hands for the thrower makes them bad, I burn more rerolls on that then anything else.
I do have 5 rerolls at the moment, 4 blizters (2 with guard, 1 MB) and a line woman with sure hands.
Anyone able to suggest formations to maximise my protection while forcing the other team to throw in large numbers of players and still stop high AG teams from sodging in?
ddouglas
ZanzerTem - Feb 20, 2003 - 02:38 PM
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Here is what I do with my 'Zons:
__Skills__
Passers - SURE HANDS 1st, Accurate & Strong Arm next 2 skills, then Block
Catchers - Block 1st (always), then sure feet, sprint
Linewomen - Block, tackle, guard
Blizters - Either Tackle/guard/Mighty Blow/Pro Choose your flavor, you already have block/dodge!
__Quick scoring tactics__
Swarm a wide zone. Set up 2 blitzers in the wide zone, 3 linewomen on the LOS, the other 2 blitzers behind them, the 2 catchers behind them, 2 passers int he backfield, an the remaining linewomen on the opposite side, but off of the line. Like this:
____________
. . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . B
. . . . . . . . . . . B
___________
. . . . . . . . . CBL
. . . . . . . . . . BL
. . . . . . . . . . . .
. . P . . . . . . .L .
. . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . P . . . L .
-------------------
. . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . .
____________
Something like that. Blitz a hole through the defence if their isnt on, form as best of a cage as far downfield as possible with your Blitzers, making sure that as few as possible are in opposing tackle zones. Get the ball with your passer, pass to the catcher, get her into the cage, THEN start dodging with your front linewomen to try and strengthen the cage, or cover the opponent in tackle zones forcing him to throw blocks. If you fall over while dodging with them, you *should* have enough Blitzers around your catcher that no one on the opposing team can Blitz your catcher.
Your opponent will try and smother you with tackle zones and possibly Blitz your catcher. This is where the Block skill on your catchers is so important. Even if you play Wood Elves, and they Leap in and hit you, they still only have a 1 in 6 chance of knocking you down. Their isnt anything you can do about dice luck, unfortunately =/
If you are still standing, push a downfield hole with your Blitzers, and if need be, Blitz with your catcher. Even if you dont knock them over, you can still push them outta the way, forming a hole. Here is yet another situation where Block will be very handy (for those inevitable double skull/pow results ) If you have to, push it to score, putting Sure Feet and your cheap rerolls to good use.
Thats the best I can come up with. It seems to work for me
Morlakar - Mar 03, 2003 - 05:08 PM
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I'm currently ending my first season with an Amazon team and ran to many of the same problems being voiced here. I found it very difficult to keep up with the high agility teams and very difficult to stop the cage on high strength teams.
The 3 agility and 6 movement make it very difficult to be an effective passing team and 7 armor can make running the ball a very painful option.
Averaging 2 touchdowns a game with little to no inflicted casualties because you're always dodging away equals little in the way of SPP to improve the team. After 8 games, my skills advantage in the beginning is practically negated by the other teams surpassing me in SPP.
Not to mention the fact that like all 7 armor teams, the possibility for a "one game demolition" is always present. I played one game against a Lizardman team of equal team rating that left me with 3 dead, 4 serious injuries and 2 badly hurt...
I've also read about the Amazon teams that have done fairly well in leagues and tournaments all over, frankly I just don't see how its done, guess it just takes a certain kind of coach to be able to play them well.
ZanzerTem - Mar 04, 2003 - 02:01 PM
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Well, nine casualties certainly does put a damper on things =/
The deaths/niggles/stat decreases are the big hits. MNG SI's and BH's i can deal with. Why? Because these players will be back on the field sometime down the road.
'Zons are an aquired taste. You either love them or you hate them.
Shortarse - Mar 23, 2003 - 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Here is what I do with my 'Zons:
__Skills__
Passers - SURE HANDS 1st, Accurate & Strong Arm next 2 skills, then Block
Catchers - Block 1st (always), then sure feet, sprint
Linewomen - Block, tackle, guard
Blizters - Either Tackle/guard/Mighty Blow/Pro Choose your flavor, you already have block/dodge!
I agree with the above quote though I usually go for block after sure hands for throwers as I usually keep them back and it comes in handy to stop both you from getting squitted and any pesky opponents that are looking to score. as to the scoring I usually go for moving 2 catchers forwards on either side (with Block ASAP) and a blitzer each in support (if they have guard all the better) DODGE!!!!! out of any TZ'd that you get put in that way your opponent can only hit one of them a turn! then it comes down to the dice and protecting your thrower. Also be prepared to just run with the thrower if he goes for your catchers. The beauty of them is you can easily get this three pronged attack going and all your opponent can do is hit one per turn. Another good tactic can be the whole HMPass and diving catch if you can get it.
Shortarse - Mar 23, 2003 - 01:38 PM
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Love Em
smeborg - Mar 23, 2003 - 07:38 PM
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Hi, DDouglas -
If you are good at defence, that means you are already an excellent coach. The 'Zons seem to be a high performing team, but trickier to learn to coach than most sides.
The 'Zons don't need to fear Dwarfs or Chaos Dwarfs (except that the 'Zons have to play more precisely, perhaps, against them). The fastest players in these teams (Bull Centaurs, Hobgoblins, Runners, Blitzers, Trollslayers) all come without Tackle. Your players, especially the Blitzers, can run rings around these guys. At CanCon (Australian national tournament in January) a 'Zon coach came 3rd, beating Dwarf teams 3 times in the process. So, in the hands of a decent coach, at least, it can be done!
The main weakness of the 'Zons is their MA6. Blodging players (Blitzers in the starting side) make the best ball carriers (the Throwers really need Sure Hands AND Block before they become decent at it). I think you have to play a running game, in a style that keeps your opponent guessing what you are going to do next (run, hand-off, pass, nothing...).
One of the great advantages of the 'Zons is that they hit hard when they need to (4 Blitzers, dodges to give the critical assists for 2 dice blocks). Opponents tend to underestimate this hitting power.
Don't be afraid to use one-die blocks.
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Smeborg the Fleshless
Tysonium - Mar 23, 2003 - 09:10 PM
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Don't be afraid to use one-die blocks.
I'd even go as far as to say don't be afraid of two die blocks. My main goal as Amazons is to push my opponents away from me so I have some space to maneuver... a push result is as good as a pow for me. An actual pow result is just icing on the cake as far as I'm concerned.
In my opinion, it's important to play aggressively with the Amazons and keep your opponent guessing as to what you are going to do next. If you don't have to pass immediately, hang onto the ball with your thrower a bit when you're heading down pitch... don't advertise who you are going to throw the ball to. If you can get your catchers block, you've got catching blitzers who don't need to be afraid of trying to shove someone out of the way to blitz in for a touchdown.
Against tackle teams, keep them back. If you can push them all back away from you, it's the same result as if you dodged out. Throw those two-die blocks against you... the odds are well in your favor for getting them away from you. And if you get double skulls... well, that's why your rerolls are so cheap...
Tyson
BUD - Mar 25, 2003 - 12:16 AM
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I am a successful Dwarf Coach and I'll let you know how to beat Dwarves. Ok, so the Dwarves are gonna beat you up anyways because you're armor 7 and they're 9... but, invest in a few (2 to 4) dirty playering chickies and you got yourself a game. Pick on one of those slayers that just piled on your players or blitzed a gal. Then go over and blitz his butt on the ground and surround and stomp him, there's one of the deadliest dwarf threats off the pitch, one down, one to go. If you can get to the runners then you're set! Runners are the hope for Dwarves to get TD's... knock them out and you have almost assured yourself a victory.
Shortarse - Mar 25, 2003 - 09:45 AM
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Dont forget to stomp on the blitzers while you're at it!