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Rules Questions - Throwing teammate....

dwarfcoach - Oct 17, 2003 - 04:28 AM
Post subject: Throwing teammate....

In the living rulebook it seems to suggest that as long as your Gobbo (or Halfling)is not carrying the ball, it does not matter what happens to him: if he is on target, if he falls over on landing, anything really.

Page 23 under the heading Landing:

'If the throw is accurate the thrown player lands in the target square. If the throw misses,then roll three times for scatter to see where the thrown player ends up as normal. If the throw is fumbled then the player being thrown falls over in their starting square. If the final modified score equals or beats the required roll, then the player lands on their feet and may take an action if they have not done so already. If the dice roll is less than the required total, then they fall over on landing and the opposing coach may make an Armour roll to see if they are injured. A failed roll does not count as a turnover unless the player was holding the ball.'

My only problem is one of a fuzzy memory (surprise surprise) Rolling Eyes

. I think I remember somebody saying that if any roll is a failure (like the throw) or if any result means your player ends up on the floor making an armour check (like the Gobbo in the quote above) then it is a turnover......? Question

Can anyone help?

Kheldar - Oct 17, 2003 - 07:15 AM
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The pass must be accurate the landing can fail. Only turnover when the "flyer" had the ball and falls.

Doubleskulls - Oct 17, 2003 - 08:29 AM
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Failing a landing roll when you don't have the ball isn't a turnover.

Everything else is (fumbled pass, always hungry, landing on another player or out of bounds).

Kilcin - Oct 17, 2003 - 09:32 AM
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Slight correction to Doubleskulls, always hungry is not a turnover as longer as the goblin/hafling doesn't have the ball.

"Make an Armour roll for any player that squirms free. The
team does not suffer a turnover unless the thrown player
had the ball." ~Living Rulebook Page 26, Second paragraph

Indigo - Oct 17, 2003 - 10:42 AM
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lol first time I've seen you wrong Ian Very Happy

Assuming kilcin hasn't misquoted the LRB

GalakStarscraper - Oct 17, 2003 - 12:52 PM
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Indigo wrote:

lol first time I've seen you wrong Ian Very Happy

Assuming kilcin hasn't misquoted the LRB

Ian isn't really wrong ... no one agrees on just about anything attached to this debate.

Always Hungry, Fumbled TTM, landing on an opponent, and landing in the crowd if you did not have the ball .... very two sided debate.

I've had 2 BBRC members tell me that all 4 of the above are turnovers. I had another 2 BBRC members tell me that all 4 were not.

Sooooooo ... we hope its on this year's Rules Review clarification but it obvious that the text in the LRB doesn't have the answer. Its all comes down to ... what is considered a failed landing for Blood Bowl. I've gotten very different answers to this questions depending on the source.

Galak

kalten - Oct 17, 2003 - 07:24 PM
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Galak's right, I've had similar experiences with this rule.
In the league at my club we say that it's only a turnover if the player has the ball, but then we like the carnage that this causes.
I thought I saw something that said that ANY action that was not completed caused a turnover, but for the life of me I cant find any reference to that rule...anyone know anyhting about that?

Kilcin - Oct 17, 2003 - 10:15 PM
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Ok, if you fumble a TTM, it's a turnover. Because it's treated just like a pass action except for the things mentioned in page 23, second paragraph, left side.

I can understand how there's a debate about the Always hungry being a turnover since the number 2. turnover listed is if a member of the moving team falls over. But, I feel that the trait overrides that rule because of the text I quoted. If you want to play it as a turnover though, I would hold it against you and would love to see an official ruling. Smile

Kalten: I couldn't find what you're talking about, and turnovers are not mentioned except on pages 8 and 14. But a good number of actions are listed on page 8 as turnovers.

I like butts... I mean buts. Wink

Anyways, I hope this helps.

*edited to fix typing/spelling mistakes*

Mordredd - Oct 20, 2003 - 04:57 AM
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Quote:

Ok, if you fumble a TTM, it's a turnover. Because it's treated just like a pass action except for the things mentioned in page 23, second paragraph, left side.

Your English/logic skills seem somewhat lacking.

It's not treated like a pass action, it is a pass action. I know it says "the throw is treated like a normal pass, except...", but what that means is TTM uses the same rules as passing the ball with the following exceptions.

A pass only results in a turn over if none of the moving teams players is holding the ball at the end of the pass action, including after the ball bouncing has been resolved. So a fumbled TTM is not a turn over because it is treated like a pass.

It is a turn over if a player from the moving team "is knocked down or falls over". Under the TTM rules it specifically says that it is not a turn over for failing the roll to land. However, IMO, this would not apply to being fumbled as no roll to land is made.

So I agree that a fumbled TTM is a turnover, but not for the reason you stated. However, I think the argument that if a failed landing is not a turnover, then being fumbled shouldn't be a turnover either is a compelling one. Also escaping from being eaten is not a turnover so....

Similarly I don't think that going in the crowd, or hitting another player, is a turnover either. Basically because failing to land is not.

All this is, of course, only applicable to situations where the player being thrown did not have the ball.

Kilcin - Oct 20, 2003 - 04:44 PM
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I find rather insulting that my English skills seem somewhat lacking when I'm pretty much quoting the Living Rulebook, which you happen to quote right after insulting me.

"To represent this, if the dice roll for a pass is 1 or less
before or after modification, then the thrower has
fumbled and dropped the ball." ~ page 22

Now the question is, with the team-mate throwing a goblin, is the goblin the same as the ball in this case or not?

Mordredd - Oct 21, 2003 - 04:47 AM
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I apologise for any offence caused, that was not my intention, however I think my point stands.

I will answer your question by starting with a few of my own. Is a Goblin a ball? Can a Goblin be caught?

If you want to treat the Goblin as the ball then a TTM action will always result in a turnover, as he cannot be caught.

Similarly a thrower fumbling the ball is not a turnover if a player from the moving team catches it.

Darkson - Oct 21, 2003 - 04:55 AM
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Mordredd wrote:

Similarly a thrower fumbling the ball is not a turnover if a player from the moving team catches it.

Ah, wrong. A fumble is always a turnover, even if it ends up in your teams hands (Fumbles, p.22 LRB).

Mordredd - Oct 21, 2003 - 05:18 AM
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OK, I had a look at that, and on the face of it an embarrassing mistake was made on my part. Embarassed

It does, however, seem to assume that no one catches it. It certainly doesn't explicitly state that it is always a turnover regardless of what happens to the ball. And it would seem to contradict the third listed turnover on page 8 (ball is passed and not caught). Confused

Don't you just love it when they make things so clear.

I had a look at Galak's hot topic list to see if there was any recommendation for rewording. An expansion of the list of turnovers on page 8 is one of them. The full list of additions being:

Quote:

Any Fumbled Pass, Fumbled Throw Team-Mate Pass, Eating your team-mate, Thrown players with the ball failing the landing, Being ejected for a foul, etc.

That should make things nice and clear.

Kilcin - Oct 21, 2003 - 10:59 AM
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I'm just glad everything is cleared and I don't have to continue where I was going. Smile

Sometimes I just do things the hard way. And apology accepted. I know that sometimes you (as in any person, not just you) say something meaning it one way and have it taken another way.

mosalva - Oct 21, 2003 - 12:28 PM
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Good. As a Halfling coach I am interested in all this. So a result of 1 (after all modifiers accounted for) when throwing a halfling is a fumble and the halfling lands where he was. If the halfling fails the landing roll it is always a turnover regardless whether he had or did not have the ball. Is that correct?

dwarfcoach - Oct 23, 2003 - 06:26 PM
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He he, I'm so glad it was not just me confused / waylaid by this rule. Thats why I love the NAF, I don't feel like a fool for bringing up topics as there tends to be at least half a dozen others who arn't a 100% sure either. Well lets hope it is cleared up in the 2004 rules review....

kalten - Oct 24, 2003 - 05:24 AM
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When you Fumble a throw (any throw) my understanding is that whether or not the ball is caught/the player lands, the action was failed and causes a turnover, right?

mosalva - Oct 24, 2003 - 11:43 AM
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Quote:

WISE WORDS INDEED!