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Strategy and Tactics - Starting lineup for new Pro Elves

pfooti - Dec 03, 2003 - 03:44 PM
Post subject: Starting lineup for new Pro Elves

Now that the pro elves have NoS catchers instead of Leaping catchers, does that alter anybody's opinion about a starting lineup for a league?

The 60k linemen mean you can get 11 linemen, 1 'poth, 9 FF, 4 RR for 1,000,000. Each reroll you sacrifice will turn either one lineman into a blitzer or two linemen into a passer and a catcher.

I was thinking of going with three rerolls and a blitzer, or maybe two rerolls and one of each position player. Then again, there are a lot of people who advocate going for just linemen in the starting elf roster.

Any opinions out there?

Apedog - Dec 03, 2003 - 03:51 PM
Post subject:

Maybe OK on a Wood Elf team because of the speed (although I would rather start with one Wardancer as well) but with this team only averaging MA6 I would be looking for at least one player to breakout from the pack if needed.

My choices would be:

11 Linemen
1 Blitzer
3 RR
8 FF

or like you suggest drop a lineman for apoth and +1 FF

or:

10 Linemen
1 Catcher
1 Thrower
3 RR
8 FF

If yor're prepared to drop to two re-rolls you can get:

7 Linemen
1 Catcher
1 Thrower
2 Blitzers
2 RR
9 FF

pfooti - Dec 03, 2003 - 04:01 PM
Post subject:

So you would rather start with 12 players and no apothecary? That might be a better long-term strategy. I've been burned, though, with a game 1 death that just hurt me in the long run.

Zombie - Dec 03, 2003 - 04:31 PM
Post subject:

Long term is always my primary goal, i.e. getting to a full team in as few games as possible. I always start all my teams with 11 players, no apoth, 8 or 9 FF, and as many rerolls as possible without having more linemen than i'll need in a complete team.

With this team, this would mean going for :

8 line-elves
2 throwers
1 catcher
8 FF
4 RR

It's not necessary to start with a blitzer since it's easy to have anyone score 2 TDs in the first game, and then you'll have a player with block for your second game who can serve as a blitzer until you buy one.

Doubleskulls - Dec 04, 2003 - 02:40 AM
Post subject:

I quite like:

2 Blitzers
9 Line Elves
3 TRR
9 FF (or 8FF & take a thrower instead).

Unlike Zombie I believe its the blitzers that really make this team work - at least initially. Give them both dodge and you've got such annoying players that opponents either devote too many resources to neutralising them or give you gaps to run through and pester the ball carrier. That blodge/sidestep combo really works well.

For longer term play catchers can be introduced later because its really easy to give them SPPs so they can catch up quickly. By then your line elves have skilled up so everyone else has block and/or dodge.

Tutenkharnage - Dec 04, 2003 - 07:03 AM
Post subject:

I like DS's roster, only I'd take the Thrower and the 8 FF. But all the rosters posted so far are quite good. (I wouldn't take 2 Throwers and 1 Catcher like Zombie would, but I understand where he's coming from.)

Just go with whatever suits your style. If you want to develop a "lunch bucket crew," go with all Linemen. Heck, load up on Catchers and Throwers if you want to play a passing game right out of the box. Whatever floats your boat, really. That might not be the key to winning with your team, but it's definitely the key to enjoying it.

-Chet

pfooti - Dec 04, 2003 - 01:01 PM
Post subject:

Thanks for all the feedback. I think I will end up going with two blitzers and a thrower, and no 'poth. I'll even post occasional game reports from my league.

pfooti - Dec 05, 2003 - 09:24 PM
Post subject: Match Report

I went with the lineup Chet recommended. Block early on seems like an edge, and I can pick up catchers and level them quickly.

My first match with this team was against a rookie goblin team. I figured, lucky me, right? Well, maybe.

The Blitzers were definitely useful, since all those dodgy gobbos didn't have Block, so I could still knock them over. Sidestep made them even more useful/annoying.

That's the good news. Bad news is, first block of the match, a lineelf got a Broken Neck (64) SI. Dangitall, I knew I needed that 'poth.

On the other hand, I used all three rerolls each half. I didn't need four in the first half, but did in the second (at that point I was down 2 or 3 players, so had more chancy actions). So it seems like 3 rerolls is about right. I don't forsee buying any more until late in their lifetime when I'm not saving up for more positional players, and at AV7, that day may never come.

So overall, very strong starting lineup. I think this team will be very competetive in tournament play, where the AV7 is less of a long-term hindrance to development (no MNG/Death, right?)

These guys play really well. Smooth. I played an adjusted 3-4-4 on defense (with a tight center 3 to prevent reblocking), and scored with pass/handoff plays (where I used almost all of my rerolls.

I can't wait to get some Catchers and give them Leap. That will be awesome.

Zombie - Dec 05, 2003 - 09:41 PM
Post subject: Re: Match Report

pfooti wrote:

Bad news is, first block of the match, a lineelf got a Broken Neck (64) SI. Dangitall, I knew I needed that 'poth.

Not at all. It's way better to have an AG3 elf (perfect for putting on the LoS) than to start with one less reroll and have to buy it at 100k later on.

pfooti - Dec 07, 2003 - 01:48 PM
Post subject:

Okay, next question is for advancing the team. My original plan for the first three advances (with doubles in parentheses):

Blitzer: Dodge, Strip Ball, Tackle (Mighty Blow)
Passer: Accurate, Safe Throw, Sure Hands (Strong Arm)
Catcher: Leap, Dodge, Pass Block (Dump Off, Jump Up)
Line: Block, Dodge, Diving Tackle (Guard)

Right now, I've got one advance for a lineman, but after the next game or two I'll have a couple more (I've got a bunch of 3+ SPP players).

I was thinking about it, and it seems like putting Diving Tackle on all my linemen first, before block, might be an interesting move. What do y'all think about getting Diving Tackle before anything else? In a pretty short amount of time, I'd have a lot of diving tackle out there, which could really deform my opponent's strategies, but then again, I'd get knocked over a lot.

Apedog - Dec 07, 2003 - 03:25 PM
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Diving Tackle: In small amounts i don't think this would be effective, but across a large amount of your team this could really be useful in hampering your opponents mobility.

Think about all those tackle zone corners you cut across to get the extra movement. One of my friends recently played a FUMBBL gobbo team with this and it was surprisingly effective.

Don't know how it would pan out for elves, Block may still be a better choice, but it would certainly be interesting. Maybe you could try for three Blodgers for the LOS and DT for the rest.

Your skill choice looks sound to me but I would consider Kick on one of the linemen.

Zombie - Dec 07, 2003 - 03:43 PM
Post subject:

pfooti wrote:

Catcher: Leap, Dodge, Pass Block (Dump Off, Jump Up)

Your catchers need blodge before anything else.

As for diving tackle, who runs away from AV7 elves instead of hitting them? This would only come in handy against other elves.

Better to just give it to your blitzers who, with blodge and side step, can really put it to use. To top it off, give them shadowing as a third skill. People will hate them.

Doubleskulls - Dec 08, 2003 - 02:41 AM
Post subject:

I'd give the blitzers Guard as a double Skill. Block, Dodge, Side Step & Guard will really annoy your opponents.

Mestari - Jan 11, 2004 - 02:27 AM
Post subject:

I decided to go and try to elves in a league I just joined. Thought I'd try out the nefarious all-lineman team:
11 line-elves 660K
4 Rerolls 200K
1 apoth
9 fan factor

It definitely is not the best choice, but I thought I'd try it out. Just to confuse my opponents by not having any position players at first. The idea is to develop a set of experienced linemen and slowly complement that lineup by position players.

We'll see what happens. The first game's today... but it's against wood elves which made me resent my decision of buying the apoth. A positional player would've been better instead, but as the league contains many esperienced teams, I thought to rather be safe than sorry and take the apoth.

Darkson - Jan 11, 2004 - 12:46 PM
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The apoths probably not a bad idea. You know full well the first time you take a hit from a non-bashy side, you'll suffer a SI or death Wink

Mestari - Jan 12, 2004 - 04:47 AM
Post subject:

Well, the four rerolls definitely were a worthwhile investment. Faced a TR126 wood elf team. Although the TR was definitely not a good representation of the teams ability as he had two MNG's.

I won 3-1 and did manage to gather SPP's pretty well - 8/11 players now have points, although only one (the MVP player) gained a skill (dodge). Got 80K of money, thought I'd save it and buy a blitzer after the next game. Killed his wardancer... teaches him to keep that important players from standing next to the sideline Wink

In the next game the plan is to get another TD for those who already scored one in this game, and get at least a completion for every lineman in order to ensure a useful MVP. In addition to winning the game, of course Smile

In retrospect, taking the blitzer over the apothecary would've been a good idea. But not getting injuries definitely wasn't guaranteed, so I suppose it was an ok decision to take the apoth.

Doubleskulls - Jan 12, 2004 - 07:28 AM
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My personal opinion is that the 11 line elf roster is too weak to compete - and you'll end up in a negative cycle. A team giving up 2 handicap rolls when missing 2 players isn't going to be the hardest to beat - especially as you killed his best player.

Tutenkharnage - Jan 12, 2004 - 09:31 AM
Post subject:

I agree with Doubleskulls to an extent. I think you can compete with this roster for a few games, but your position players are very expensive. You'll be waiting a long time to complete your lineup, and you might find yourself in trouble long before that happens.

-Chet

pfooti - Jan 12, 2004 - 03:12 PM
Post subject:

Additionally, unless you think you're going to get a player killed in the first match, I'd go with no 'poth. A reroll and 'poth are equal in cost at team start, but with winnings, that reroll is going to cost 50k more. So only if not having a 'poth costs you 50k is it worth taking the 'poth over a reroll. And if 4 rr is good for you, turn that 'poth into a blitzer.

Mestari - Jan 12, 2004 - 10:25 PM
Post subject:

Well, I wouldn't go as far with the claims about being uncompetitive. Although I admit that this was not the most geared starting lineup, I would say that four rerolls go a long way to prevent problems - Filling the lineup may take time, but you couldn't take that many position players anyhow, especially if you wanted any rerolls.

And having usually started elf teams with about 10 linemen, and having been quite succesfull, I must say that if one manages to avoid the injury cycle, the negative cycle will not happen. With more rerolls and far better advanced linemen than the average elf team, the team will have good chances after the lineup is somewhat filled.

With average luck with the winnings, I should have 2 blitzers or a blitzer and a catcher after game 3, and most certainly 1 blitzer after the next game. And if I manage to give out SPP's well in the next game, there should be quite a few experienced linemen.

Doubleskulls - Jan 13, 2004 - 03:09 AM
Post subject:

Mestari wrote:

Filling the lineup may take time, but you couldn't take that many position players anyhow, especially if you wanted any rerolls.

My current team on ECBBL started with 2 Blitzers, 1 Catcher, 1 Thrower, 7 Line, 2 TRR, 9FF. After 14 games I've got 4 TRR and have just bought my 15th player - the 3rd catcher.

I probably could have been a lot worse off (iirc only a couple of deaths and no stat decreases).

pfooti - Jan 13, 2004 - 10:43 AM
Post subject:

Mestari wrote:

With average luck with the winnings, I should have 2 blitzers or a blitzer and a catcher after game 3, and most certainly 1 blitzer after the next game. And if I manage to give out SPP's well in the next game, there should be quite a few experienced linemen.

This is true enough. I started my Elf team with two blitzers and a thrower, and managed to get a 'poth and two catchers by game 4. In my league, the rookie teams get a 4 game "preseason" where the wins don't count in order to bulk up a little before entering the regular season (against a mix of rookie and vet teams), so I go into the regular season with a 126 TR, a thrower, two blitzers, two catchers, six linemen, three rerolls, a 'poth and 11 FF. Only bummer is my last match of the preseason was against khemri, so I have 11 instead of 13 players on my roster. Razz

Mestari - Jan 14, 2004 - 12:36 AM
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Doubleskulls wrote:

My idea about starting with only a low amount of position players is based on the thinking that at AG4 the linemen should be capable of pretty much everything required. Additionally, skills opposed to TR's says that if you take position players, the linemen have a lot less potential due to the smaller amount of TRR's. Also, when you get position players, the linemen should already have enough skills that you don't have to rely on the position players to do things for you.

But regardless - the fact remains that with their AG, elf teams are very versatile and forgiving. If you manage to avoid injuries, any setup will do.