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Rules Questions - Does Foul appearrance works all the time?
SBG - Jan 31, 2004 - 06:25 PM
Post subject: Does Foul appearrance works all the time?
Even when the guy is prone ?
Fred
Zombie - Jan 31, 2004 - 06:41 PM
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Yes, but many leagues have house ruled against this. If you ask me, that's one of the most stupid rules to have come out lately.
Melifaxis - Jan 31, 2004 - 07:00 PM
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Foul Appearance or the house rule against it for prone players?
Zombie - Jan 31, 2004 - 07:32 PM
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The official rule is the one i find stupid, in the case of prone players. How many leagues have house ruled against it already is a testament to that.
Mordredd - Feb 02, 2004 - 05:28 AM
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I don't find the official rule stupid. After all the FA player is meant to smell so bad/be so disgusting and the flies he attracts so numerous that he puts off opposition players around him whether or not the he is standing. (Personally I like the idea of him affecting all non FA players, whether they are on his team or not.)
I can see why people house rule this out, as it is a bit of an oddity to be able to use a skill or trait when prone. However this is a purely mechanistic approach, and I prefer the fluff based reasoning above.
Melifaxis - Feb 02, 2004 - 12:17 PM
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I guess I'll have to chat with my league mates about this one as if I roll doubles with a linerat I'll be picking up FA.
Zombie - Feb 06, 2004 - 07:06 PM
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Mordredd wrote:
I don't find the official rule stupid.
Well i do, and so do many others. When the rule came out, among many other disputed rules, it was the one most decried, not by me (i considered other blunders much more important than this one about a skill that only two races can take anyway), but by the majority of forum posters.
It also happens to be included both ways in the PBeM tools. And i know for a fact the the MBBL2 (Galak's child, which could become important now that he's a member of the BBRC) plays the other way around. I don't know about all the other PbEM leagues, but i know for a fact that at least a few of them play the other way as well (if not all). Certainly, a lot of people find this rule stupid.
Mordredd wrote:
After all the FA player is meant to smell so bad/be so disgusting and the flies he attracts so numerous that he puts off opposition players around him whether or not the he is standing.
A professional Blood Bowl player, who lives in the Blood Bowl world, wouldn't be distracted by an ugly thing lying on the floor. An ugly thing looking him in the eye, eager to rip his heart out, yes. One lying helpless on the floor, certainly not. Notice that he doesn't affect his own teammates, whether standing or prone, for the same reason: he's not a threat to them.
Mordredd wrote:
I can see why people house rule this out, as it is a bit of an oddity to be able to use a skill or trait when prone.
Indeed. You don't even have a tackle zone when you're lying on the floor. A tackle zone is the most basic thing that any player is entitled to, even a snotling. But a minotaur lying on the floor doesn't have it. Letting these players use this skill while prone goes against everything we've been taught about this game.
Mordredd wrote:
However this is a purely mechanistic approach, and I prefer the fluff based reasoning above.
The fluff supports my side. The mechanical approach supports my side. And most importantly (yet something that you seem to have missed entirely), it's bad for game balance. Fluff makes a game interesting. Game mechanics make a game work. But balance is what separates a good game from a bad one.
If a player can still use the skill when prone, then there's nothing you can do about it other than getting him off the field. However, that's rarely possible. This means that a couple of players with foul appearance can effectively shut down the other team's passing game, a big aspect of Blood Bowl if there ever was any.
This is too good. This is especially too good considering that only two races can ever get that skill, as it tips the balance in their favor. And we all know that neither skaven nor chaos need that extra help. It makes foul appearance so good in fact that it would be foolish to consider anything else on a double until you've got at least 3 or 4 players with that skill. This is saying much considering the other choices these teams have.
For this reason and for all the others provided above, this rule is an awful one. In any case, with Galak now a member of the BBRC, i'm pretty confident that this ruling with be overturned at the next rules review.
Mordredd - Feb 09, 2004 - 05:30 AM
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OK, by sections then.
Your first section is just a rather long-winded, overly combative and rather pointless way of saying, "I disagree". Incidentally, I see no reason to take what the PBeM tools do as any indication of correctness, popularity or logical consistency.
The second, I think, is logically flawed. (Please note, that's a statement of opinion. 
) FA is not about just being ugly, and being eager to rip out your heart has nothing to do with it; every BB player wants to do that. 
Considering that Zombies don't have it, and they're walking semi-decomposed corpses, FA must be truly gut wrenchingly awful. Think of something that just by knowing you are close makes your skin feel dirty and the mere sight of which makes you want to hurl and maybe you are half way there. This is why FA has a range of 3 squares and is not just the player's tackle zone.
I personally would like to see players on both teams affected by FA, but the reasoning why only the opposition is is that they don't have to practice daily the stinking, fly-blown a**hole.
Part three. It has nothing to do with tackle zone either. It's not as if the FA player is physically doing anything while prone. It is simply about his being able to put other players off their game, and probably their food for a week, just by being close to them.
Last part. "The fluff supports my side. The mechanical approach supports my side." Er, no and no. You are right about the game balance, in that I did not take much consideration of it. I will say this though, none of the Skaven teams in my league have even considered taking it, and none of the passing teams have complained that their game is totally FUBAR against the 2 Rotters teams either.
As for it being changed now that Galak is on the BBRC, was the support for this ruling really so marginal that changing one committee member would reverse it? That's a serious question by the way; I don't know, can you say that you do?[/b]
Doubleskulls - Feb 09, 2004 - 05:56 AM
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We house ruled it away for pretty much the reasons Zombie put down.
Mordredd - Feb 09, 2004 - 07:01 AM
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Are you talking about the balance reasons or the fluff ones as well? Zombie may be right on the balance issue, although I have not seen any evidence to support that position in my league. However IMO, and that's all it is, he is totally wrong on the fluff.
Doubleskulls - Feb 09, 2004 - 09:23 AM
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IIRC both. Everyone thought it too much for FA to work while prone. It basically makes a passing game impossible against Rotters etc as even if you blitz the player you have to knock them out to stop it working.
From a fluff point of view I don't think I'd be put off by an opponent who's eating turf (or even stunned) no matter how ugly they are (or bad they smell).
Zombie - Feb 09, 2004 - 01:54 PM
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Mordredd wrote:
As for it being changed now that Galak is on the BBRC, was the support for this ruling really so marginal that changing one committee member would reverse it? That's a serious question by the way; I don't know, can you say that you do?[/b]
That was not my point. They don't just take votes, they discuss things first. I know that Galak believes this rule to be awful and downright stupid. I expect that he'll pound his points until the commitee agrees with him or he finds his crusade to be hopeless. I suspect that the first case will happen first.
As for the rest. Point one: look at the threads when the rules review came out. I assure you that this rule was much decried. The people are on my side in this case.
Point two: i guess we'll never agree. But remember this, in the Blood Bowl world, they're used to seeing foul things all around them. Unless the foul thing is somewhat of a threat to them, there's no reason it should affect their game.
Point three: you didn't understand my argument. I'm not saying it should be like tackle zones. I'm saying that nothing works while prone, even the most basic Blood Bowl concepts. So neither should this, for the sake of keeping the game as straightforward as possible.
Point four: game balance is the main reason why the rule should never have been made this way. It's also the main reason why so many leagues have already house ruled it away. If people on your league haven't jumped on it yet, it's just because they haven't figured out how godly it is. Even without the prone thing, it's already one of the best (or maybe THE best) mutation there is.
Mestari - Feb 10, 2004 - 01:43 AM
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I don't personally care too much either way, I like the current ruling, but wouldn't mind if prone FA's wouldn't have an effect on passing.
Mordredd - Feb 10, 2004 - 05:54 AM
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I'm saying that nothing works while prone, even the most basic Blood Bowl concepts.
Thick Skull? There is no rule that says 'nothing works while prone' so no complications or exceptions needed.
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From a fluff point of view I don't think I'd be put off by an opponent who's eating turf (or even stunned) no matter how ugly they are (or bad they smell).
I'm a chemist (not the drug dispensing type) and I know that there are chemicals that properly stink. There are even some that will stop your breathing if you get a good lungful of them. Some could trigger nausea, dizziness or vomiting. Are you saying none of this would put you off your game? By far the worst I've experienced was on a pig farm where the smell from the open cess pit in which they treated the pig sh*t was overpowering; and I was told it was mild that day.
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But remember this, in the Blood Bowl world, they're used to seeing foul things all around them. Unless the foul thing is somewhat of a threat to them, there's no reason it should affect their game.
As I said before, foul things like Zombies; Beastmen, Skaven and Chaos Warriors with or without other mutations; Elves . Incidentally, someone with Nurgle's rot, or the like, is a threat to you just by being close. He doesn't even have to be touching you to pass on some airborne biological nasty.
losoftheapple - Mar 01, 2004 - 03:04 PM
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so the upshot is that FA works when prone? the official answer please, we don't have a house rule on it yet. 
Zombie - Mar 01, 2004 - 03:15 PM
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Yes, it does. 
Doubleskulls - Mar 02, 2004 - 02:18 AM
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It works while prone - IIRC this was in the 2002 Rules Review.
40KVet - Mar 03, 2004 - 06:26 AM
Post subject: What About....
Thick Skull?
I believe you can use it when prone.
A K.O. on a foul can be reduced to a stun for example.
Zombie - Mar 03, 2004 - 06:37 PM
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Thick skull affects you, not the opponent. Of course skills you have can still affect you whether you're standing or lying down. But that they should affect your opponents is another matter entirely.
losoftheapple - Mar 05, 2004 - 01:29 AM
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so i understand FA can work when the player is pron or not depending on what the house rules are but is the -1 mod. cumlative if you have several players with FA cus that could REALLY f up a passing game
Zombie - Mar 05, 2004 - 02:13 AM
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The official rule (i.e. unless you house rule otherwise) is that it works when prone and is cumulative.