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Rules Questions - Fan factor in tournements?

DivingCatch100 - Mar 06, 2004 - 05:11 AM
Post subject: Fan factor in tournements?

Hay, I was just woundering the other day if about the rule for fan factor in blood bowl tournements.
I know the rules say that a team must always start with at least one fanfactor mandantory. However how usefull is this rule really for tournements. Its not as if you need to work out a gate total.
I'm not saying get rid of fan factor for tournements and one of games all together as I realise that many people like to take high fan factors in tournements to help out on kick off roles. But I do think that whether you take fan factor or not should be made discresionary. So you can take FF if you want to but are not forced to.
I think this would help out higher priced teams by giving them a little more flexability in thier line up without making it too easy for them to make an all conquering team that the 110 k rules do
Also if teams do have an extra 10 k the coach may want to spend this on coaching staff and cheerleaders both just as useful on the kick off table as ff but give the player a chance to display more of their modelling skills with an actual tangable model.
So what do people think?, i realise its not a vast change but i do think it would benifit the game. Has anyone tried tournements like this? how did it work out?

Zombie - Mar 06, 2004 - 06:25 AM
Post subject:

There are two main reasons why this will never happen.

1. It would set a precedent by making tournament rules different from league rules. As long as we can manage to have only one rulebook, all the better.

2. It makes absolutely no difference! All right, so it gives an extra 10k to spend elsewhere for the team. Well, if that's what you want, just make the tournament rules so that teams have 1010k to spend!

Also, what you said about assistant coaches and cheerleaders being just as useful as fan factor is totally false. Each of those only helps on 1 kick off event. Fan factor helps in 4 different events, 3 of which being much more game breaking than those affected by extra coaching staff. There is value in having high fan factor. Clearly, that value is not very high, but it's much higher than that of coaching staff, that's for sure.

What actually would make a nice change would be to make assistant coaches and cheerleaders more powerful. There are many variations of this currently in all kinds of leagues. Maybe we'll see one of those become official eventually.

Clan_Skaven - Mar 06, 2004 - 06:38 AM
Post subject: yep

Zombie is right, at the Toronto Games Day Tourney last August, FF was a big asset to me in my 1st game (even though I lost Evil or Very Mad

). You had 1,300,000gc to spend on your team, & injuries & gate counted so all post match events took place. My Skaven team started with a 9 FF, while my Wood Elf opponent started with a 3 FF. Who do you think won the two Pitch Invasions?

Ok now I know most tourneys will not be like that(rosters will most likely restart after each round.) But IMO, if you have like 10,000-40,000 left over after you have your team bought, that extra FF could be the deciding factor in winning the game for you (esspeacially, if your opponent only has a one FF)

Rod

DivingCatch100 - Mar 06, 2004 - 08:28 AM
Post subject:

Yeah like i said i can see why some players would still take FF, because your both right it is usefull, what the main point of this post was however is not losing it from the rules altogether but just giving players the option to not take fan factor if they don't want to and spend the money elsewhere. In this way all you would be doing is changing the fan factor rule from 1-9 to 0-9.
Also the point from Zombie, i think it was (sorry if it isn't) about having only one rule book that applies to both tournements and leagues becomes a little obsolete when you consider the changes that are already made for tournements (eg being GIVEN skills after each game, star players costing double etc.. etc..). Not to menthion the plethora of house rules people play by, as for as I know these have never caused any problems as long as they are specified well before the tournement.
I've just read that back and realised it sounded a bit harsh, like i was stomping on your ideas, i didn't mean it that way, I actualy enjoyed reading other peoples views Very Happy

Zombie - Mar 06, 2004 - 09:44 AM
Post subject:

DivingCatch100 wrote:

I've just read that back and realised it sounded a bit harsh, like i was stomping on your ideas, i didn't mean it that way, I actualy enjoyed reading other peoples views Very Happy

You don't know me yet. You can never be too harsh for me!

Seriously, all this would change is add 10k more to spend. Why do you need that 10k all that much and why wouldn't making TR 101 tournaments accomplish the same result?

Clan_Skaven - Mar 06, 2004 - 11:30 AM
Post subject: Also

Also if you think of the Fluff of the game, your FF is your teams Fan Populous. A team with a zero FF would mean that nobody likes you, you may as well not exist, (mind you with a one FF you pretty much have no Fans anyway Laughing

). So just to keep the Fluff up, yes I do think the minimal one FF is needed.

And to agree with Zombie, I'm not sure what you are going to really gain by saving 10k on your FF.

(Oh & Zombie was also right on you not being to harsh, or you not knowing him. Trust me you were not too harsh. He & I have banged heads in the past! Both Down

)

Watch out for those skulls, Rod

DivingCatch100 - Mar 06, 2004 - 04:36 PM
Post subject:

Hay,
the whole thing about the extra 10k for the teams, especially for the more expensive teams can mean a fairly big change to the starting line up of a team, for example instead of that dark elf blitzer you can suddenly afford another witchelf, or another reroll becomes available to you. If you look through the team lists and have a really good think about the teams I'm sure you could come up with a bunch of your own.
Your right one way to do this is to extend the limit to 101, but I've always had a bit of an adverse reaction to extending point limits in this way, perhaps 101 wouldn't be too bad but say in tournements with 110k points limits. It seems this lets expensive teams create a more rounded team without giving anything up, in leagues this wouldn't be too bad as, as other teams progress they develop skills to help counter this and are generally cheaper to replace players. But in tournements most of this dosn't apply giving a higher degree of advantage from the extra 100k for the more expensive teams, that usually have much better starting stats.
This is a bit long winded but what I'm basically trying to say is that with the extra 10k more expensive teams could use this to help fill out their team more but they would run a higher risk of getting battered by the kick off table, but at the end it would be their choice. It would still mean there was an element of give and take in team selection rather than in 110k team lists which I dont think do.
I realise thats a bit different from just bunging 10k on top but thats generally why I'm against the idea.

DivingCatch100 - Mar 06, 2004 - 04:49 PM
Post subject:

Also (sorry Rolling Eyes

) in response to the fluff thing in real life sporting tournements ticket allocation is generally run so there is about equal numbers off tickets for both sets of fans, you could just say that this is what is happening in bloodbowl so every one gets the same fan factor Wink

Seriously though I've got abit of another rules thing which I'm thinking about starting but might preview here cos its sort of related.
You hear endless stories about people giving away TD's and losing matches due to poor rolls on the Kick off table, don't you think this is a bit over the top, cos when you get right down to it the kick off table is just really an arbitary roll of a dice and a bit of luck, no skill involved or anything. My main point is that its a bit overpowed for instance two results that can be potential TD's are blitz and perfect defence, yet you can do bugger all about these

Zombie - Mar 07, 2004 - 12:54 AM
Post subject:

You still haven't told us why you couldn't just make TR 101 tournaments. You've said that you don't like TR 110, but you haven't said anything against TR 101.

DivingCatch100 wrote:

Kick off table, don't you think this is a bit over the top, cos when you get right down to it the kick off table is just really an arbitary roll of a dice and a bit of luck

So is everything else in the game! Very Happy

Some tournaments, however, have ruled out the two most destructive ones, namely pitch invasion and riot. But the vast majority of tournaments keeps them in.

majortusk - Mar 07, 2004 - 01:26 AM
Post subject:

Zombie wrote:

But the vast majority of tournaments keeps them in.

as it should be in my opinion Smile

Blood Bowl not fluffy Care Bear Bowl

DivingCatch100 - Mar 07, 2004 - 03:27 AM
Post subject:

I might start that kick off thing i can see there being a couple of fairly strong divided camps there.
Sorry thought i had explained obviously not as clear as i thought. Reason why I don't like extending points limits in this way is that it takes out the 'give and take' from team selections just letting you take what ever you want.
In this example for instance in high cost teams (sorry to go back to this example again but it shows best what I'm trying to say) if you had a 101k team they would still be able to get FF and a more rounded team, giving up nothing. where as in 100 they would have to choose what to take, either spend more on thier team or use the extra GP on FF not both.

DivingCatch100 - Mar 07, 2004 - 03:29 AM
Post subject:

"Fluffy care bear bowl"? I like the sound of that, I sence a team conversion coming on! Very Happy

majortusk - Mar 07, 2004 - 03:30 AM
Post subject:

DivingCatch100 wrote:

"Fluffy care bear bowl"? I like the sound of that, I sence a team conversion coming on! Very Happy

already started with my chaos team Smile

Darkson - Mar 07, 2004 - 04:02 AM
Post subject:

The reason why some tournaments change the riot/pitch invasion rolls to D3 are because it sucks to pay to play a game and then have it ruined because you rolled a crappy result on a KO table. In a league they're fine, but I agree with toning them down for a pay-to-play tourney.

Darkson - Mar 07, 2004 - 04:05 AM
Post subject:

@DC100 - I don't like the idea of loosing the 1 FF point that you have to take. I'd agrue if you wanted to you could, but then you'd automatically lose any FF-related rolls you had to make. (Kinda of hard for your fans to invade the pitch when you haven't brought any!)

DivingCatch100 - Mar 07, 2004 - 06:36 AM
Post subject:

Zombie wrote:

What actually would make a nice change would be to make assistant coaches and cheerleaders more powerful. There are many variations of this currently in all kinds of leagues. Maybe we'll see one of those become official eventually.

Knew i meant to come back to this, totally right though it makes no sense that coaches, IMO the key to practically any type of sport you want to play, haveing such little impact.
Perhaps, and I know this might sound a little off the wall but (cheerleaders+FF) and (assistent coaches+rerolls) should be mixed together in some sort of way, points costs adjusted maybe. Sort of makes sence particularly in the later as it would be the coaches pushing the team to perform better, hence rerolls for more disciplined teams.

Clan_Skaven - Mar 07, 2004 - 08:37 AM
Post subject: hmm

Something like for every 5 assistant coaches, one free reroll.

Or for every 2 rerolls you can buy a reroll at half price.

Or like a Leader reroll, if you have more Assistant Coaches than your Opponent you get a free Assistant Coach reroll.(& you could do something like after each game you lose roll a die, & on 4+ your fine but on a 1,2,or3 D3 Assistant Coaches walk (they look for work elsewhere.)

Just some brainstorming ideas off the top of my head! What do ya guys think? Good bad or stoooopid? Laughing

Rod

Zombie - Mar 07, 2004 - 10:10 AM
Post subject: Re: hmm

Clan-Skaven wrote:

Something like for every 5 assistant coaches, one free reroll.

Bad. Overpowered.

Clan-Skaven wrote:

Or for every 2 rerolls you can buy a reroll at half price.

See above.

Clan-Skaven wrote:

Or like a Leader reroll, if you have more Assistant Coaches than your Opponent you get a free Assistant Coach reroll.

This could be a good idea. It would definitely start an arms race to get more assistant coaches than your opponent. You'd be trying to gauge how many the other teams of your league have, and try to have just one more. It would be wise however to keep below 5 or 6 no matter what or you'd lose more than you'd win by buying them.

Clan-Skaven wrote:

(& you could do something like after each game you lose roll a die, & on 4+ your fine but on a 1,2,or3 D3 Assistant Coaches walk (they look for work elsewhere.)

You have a tendency to vastly overpower everything. One of them leaving would be enough, if this were to be implemented at all. But your basic idea of an assistant coach reroll has merit.

DivingCatch100 - Mar 07, 2004 - 12:40 PM
Post subject:

Hay i put another thread in the house rules section seemed better there, general idea i had though was that u only have a 1 or a team of assistent coaches and chearleaders which you bought at the begininng of the season then you added skills or traits to them to them (this would be in effect rerolls and ff) of these you could have as many as you wanted
Then during season when you assistent coaches and chearleaders win things dirrectly related to them such as arguing with the ref or resullts on the kick of table they would earn SPP's just like regular players, and just like regular players when you hit a certain level you get a new skill, that perhaps you would have to roll on a table for. Sumthing like for refs:
1 = Brilliant coach +1 reroll
2 = Intimidating (+1 to argue the calls)
etc etc...
For cheerleaders you could have
1 = skimpy costumes (+1 to to roll on gate)
2 = Winning the crowd (+1 to all rolls on KO table)
(Fan factor would also go up and down due to the teams performance as well, just like normal)
Obviously these are just examples and would have to be worked out properly but you get the general idea. Perhaps somsort of capping on certain skills would be needed.
I like this idea for 3 reasons
1) It gets cheerleaders and coaches ivolved in playing the game much more.
2) They would progress and evolve just as the team does
3) As the leagues progresses you wouldn't have to by and paint about a million cheerleader and coach models, all you would need is a small diarama or perhaps 1 figure for the coach and say three for a troop of cheerleaders and that would be it.

Clan_Skaven - Mar 07, 2004 - 01:03 PM
Post subject: Thanks.

Thanks Zombie.