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Rules Questions - Dump off question

Xtreme - Mar 07, 2004 - 09:07 PM
Post subject: Dump off question

Alright so if a player with Dump off is blocked it is pretty basic, but my question is when they are blitzed.

Do you make the throw as soon as your opponet anounces the blitz or just before he actually makes the block. Do Tackle zones affect this? Because if you can throw as they are running at you you could avoid another tackle zone.

Doubleskulls - Mar 08, 2004 - 02:27 AM
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Just before the block, because you don't know who is getting blocked in the blitz until they declare the block.

Xtreme - Mar 08, 2004 - 02:49 AM
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Couple more questions,
Can it be combined with strong arm to dump off short passes?
and do you get a Comp point for a completed dump off?

Indigo - Mar 08, 2004 - 03:14 AM
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IIRC you CAN'T use strong arm and you do get the SPP for a completion

Dave - Mar 08, 2004 - 03:38 AM
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pass block .. does it work / not work on a dump off pass ??

I have read it somewhere but can't really recall the truth ...

Dave - Mar 08, 2004 - 03:47 AM
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found it .. RR2002 ...

fun if the blitzer has pass block as well .. gives him 3 xtre squares ..

Zombie - Mar 08, 2004 - 05:47 AM
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On the contrary, it takes away MA from him, since if he uses pass block, he'll have to use normal MA after that to get back into blitz position and finish the job. Oh wait, the block is optional...

Doubleskulls - Mar 08, 2004 - 06:07 AM
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I think a sensible interpretation is the you can Pass Block a Dump Off, but not with the blitzing player.

You do get the SPP for a completion (assuming its accurate & caught).

Mordredd - Mar 08, 2004 - 07:18 AM
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Quote:

Oh wait, the block is optional...

Yes, but you can only use dump off when you get blocked (after the block is declared but before the dice are rolled) so that would never happen.

Zombie - Mar 08, 2004 - 09:01 AM
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What would never happen, the block?

Dave - Mar 08, 2004 - 09:04 AM
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if the blitzer has PB then that could indeed be the case ... I guess Confused

Mordredd - Mar 08, 2004 - 09:15 AM
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Quote:

What would never happen, the block?

No the pass block. If the blitzer doesn't block then there can be no dump off, and therefore no pass block. As the dump off is resolved before the block then there is no pass for the blitzer to pass block once his block has been resolved and he is free to carry on moving.

Grumbledook - Mar 08, 2004 - 09:26 AM
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I bought this up on tbb last year,

personally the player who is doing the blitz shouldn't be able to passblock because then it stops the block from taking place thus the dump off can't be done which in turn negates the option to passblock

other players are free to passblock though

Zombie - Mar 08, 2004 - 10:55 AM
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Mordredd wrote:

Quote:

What would never happen, the block?

You said it yourself, the dump off is resolved before the block, and pass block along with it. So the blitzer could indeed pass block, then after that's over with, carry on with his blitz, which may or may not contain a block according to the rules.

SBG - Mar 08, 2004 - 11:13 AM
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It has seldom happened, but I think you're wrong here Zombie.

In that case, for the DO to happen, the Blitzer must have announced the Block. Before your roll your Block die (dice), DO happens, then possible PB. It's kind of like just before the thrower gets it in the chin that this happens.

If we take for granted that you can forfeit your Block on a Blitz action, turning it into a movement only, there could not be any DO, since you can only DO when a Block is announced. Once it is announced, you must complete the Block.

That's the way I see it.

Fred

Zombie - Mar 08, 2004 - 12:41 PM
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SBG wrote:

It's kind of like just before the thrower gets it in the chin that this happens.

Yeah, i guess you're right.

ZFurelli - Mar 10, 2004 - 06:13 AM
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This means that by the rules the Blitzer could be 3 squares away from the opposing player during the block.

Furelli

Mordredd - Mar 10, 2004 - 09:15 AM
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No, he can't pass block at all.

The sequence is:
1) blitzer declares a block (and is now committed to throwing the block).
2) defender declares dump off.
3) pass blockers move, but the blitzer can't as he is mid way through a block and can't do anything else until it is resolved.
4) the dump off is resolved.
5) the block is resolved.
6) the blitzer is now free to complete his move, and may perform a pass block of his own if the opportunity arises.

ZFurelli - Mar 10, 2004 - 09:28 AM
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3) pass blockers move, but the blitzer can't as he is mid way through a block and can't do anything else until it is resolved.

I agree that it should not be possible but please show me a rule in the LRB or FAQ's that indicates a player cannot do anything midway through an action. Surely I can use any skills I have when the trigger effect happens if playing by the book.

Furelli

LouisX - Mar 10, 2004 - 09:43 AM
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The easiest solution : blitz him on the square between the thrower and the possible catcher to make an interception Wink

Mordredd - Mar 10, 2004 - 09:49 AM
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Well it doesn't say that you can, and as a pass blocking player has to make dodge rolls to leave tackle zones etc. just like a normal move it seems logical to say that he can't use the skill when mid way through a block.

Certainly when blitzing you have to resolve the block before you carry on moving so I see no reason why a pass blocker would be allowed to move between declaring the block and rolling the dice.

pfooti - Mar 10, 2004 - 11:02 AM
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Mordredd wrote:

3) pass blockers move, but the blitzer can't as he is mid way through a block and can't do anything else until it is resolved.

While I do agree with this statement, it is an opinion and not necessarily supported by the LRB. It seems like the sane interpretation tho. But imagine a new sequence instead:

1. declare ballcarrier as target of a block
2. ballcarrier declares dumpoff pass target
3. resolve block result, but don't scatter ball
4. passblockers move
5. intercept roll
6. pass roll
7. catch roll

So then the passblocking blitzer could move. It still wouldn't make sense, though, since the blitzer is the guy who is forcing the dump off.

On the other hand, the dump off passer shouldn't be throwing the ball as he's falling, rather just before he's hit. So a passblocking blitzer maybe wouldn't roll the block dice, instead would say "Fooled you!" and get the interception. Waste of a Blitz action, and you just have to decide if the blitzer could hit someone else instead (I'd say no).

Mordredd - Mar 11, 2004 - 07:18 AM
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That sequence definitely can't happen due to the way the dump off skill is worded.

In order to force the dump off the blitzer must declare a block, which means he can't then not do it once the dump off has been made.

Also the dump off is entirely resolved before the block dice are rolled, meaning step 3 must come after step 7.

Quote:

Dump-Off
This skill allows the player to make a Quick Pass when an opposing player declares that he will throw a block at him, allowing the player to get rid of the ball before he is hit. Work out makes his block. The normal throwing rules apply, except that neither teams turn ends as a result of the throw, whatever it may be. After the throw is worked out your opponent completes the block, and then carries on with his turn.

My stated sequence is not just an opinion, but a statement of fact fully supported by the LRB. Though if anyone can tell me what "Work out makes his block" is supposed to mean I'd be grateful.

pfooti - Mar 11, 2004 - 11:35 AM
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The sequence I proposed was a rule change, not an interpretation. The rules are very clear about when the dump off happens and when the block dice are rolled. The place the rules are unclear is if the hitting player can declare a block, run away (with pass block) and still roll the block dice. Weird situation, and I'd be inclined to say the hitting player can't passblock, but I've been wrong before.

Mordredd - Mar 12, 2004 - 04:50 AM
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Oh, sorry. You threw me with "it is an opinion and not necessarily supported by the LRB".

In that case I personally don't like the proposed change. He's meant to be getting rid of the ball before he's hit, and if it was resolved in that order then where would the dump off player throw the ball from? Where he started, before the block, or where he's pushed to?

It may not be spelt out, but I do think that there is a strong implication in the wording of the rules that the blocking player is 'paused' mid action while the dump off is resolved.

ToppyT - Mar 26, 2004 - 12:40 PM
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Quote:

No, he can't pass block at all.

Thanks for the Clarifcation as it came up in an actually game today where Helf catcher had pass block and blizted my dump off thrower.