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Rules Questions - I want an official ruling
liviath - Feb 11, 2003 - 12:50 PM
Post subject: I want an official ruling
I am involved in a big discussion about using Strong Arm on a Dump Off. I think since all Short Passes are treated as Quick Passes, a player with Strong Arm can Dump Off further than others. I want to here an official opinion. If you disagree then I will elaborate more on why I am right.
Grumbledook - Feb 11, 2003 - 12:55 PM
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You can't use strong arm on dump off. Dump off allows you to throw a quick pass. Strong arm allows you to take the range down by one band. Since quick pass is the shortest band you can't reduce it by anything, which therefore means that strong arm can't be used. While I am not in the BBRC, I believe thats the answer you will get as this has been covered on talkbloodbowl ;]
Deathwing - Feb 11, 2003 - 01:11 PM
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Oh no....this is following me....
Chet posted on this on the GW forum. You have an answer from a BBRC member, don't quite see where you're going to get an any more official answer than that outside of JJ himself.
skummy - Feb 11, 2003 - 01:33 PM
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In some ways, it could be said that the BRCC is more offical than Jervis or Andy.
Darkson - Feb 11, 2003 - 05:44 PM
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Might be worth getting all the BBRC FAQ's from TBB posted up here?
Narkotic - Feb 11, 2003 - 05:45 PM
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"If you ask frequently enough, the chance will increase that you will receive an answer which suits you."
Squiggoth - Feb 12, 2003 - 02:14 AM
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As a GW employee I say You Can't Use Strong Arm on a Dump Off... Does that count as official then?
McSnaga - Feb 12, 2003 - 04:45 AM
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As an ex-GW employee I say 'No' too. And if that's not official I don't know what is 
Squiggoth - Feb 12, 2003 - 05:42 AM
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If it's not official, it's unofficial 
Milo - Feb 12, 2003 - 07:25 AM
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I have to second Chet's opinion -- Strong Arm does not allow you to Dump Off further than you normally can.
Longshot - Feb 12, 2003 - 08:12 AM
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Same answer as above...NO, you can't.
Dont elaborate anything please.
Milo answered officialy.
liviath - Feb 12, 2003 - 08:31 AM
Post subject: OK here comes my reasoning
There are many reasons why this should work under the way the rules are written. f it is not supposed to work than the rules need to be rewritten. I suggest changing the Dump Off to say "any player up to 3 squares". No way to argue how far you can throw then.
Now for the reasons it should be allowed.
1. Dump Off states you are allowed to throw a Quick Pass worked out as a normal pass action. Strong Arm states that you reduce the range of a pass by one band. Therefore, "a long pass is treated as a short pass", or in our case a short pass is treated as a quick pass. So what was a short pass is now called a quick pass which meets the criteria of a dump off.
2. This ties in with the first point. All the actions in Bloodbowl have the same procedure: declare, modify, roll the result. In a block, for example, you first declare the block. Then you may modify your ST with skills. If you roll a successful dauntless roll against an ogre your ST is then treated as 5. AFTER that, then you compare ST to determine the number of block dice used. A pass action works the same way. You first declare the pass. You may measure to any square you like. Strong Arm allows you to modify the range ruler itself making a short pass now a quick pass. Then you look up the modifiers to the roll and toss the die. I should think that if you are using the "+1 for a Quick Pass" modifier, the pass itself is considered a quick pass.
3. Not being able to use strong arm makes this trait inferior to accurate and usually traits are better than skills. It is made inferior because accurate gives a +1 on all throws, while strong arm gives you +1 only on 3 of the 4 types a passes. Not being able to use strong arm also reduces it to just being another form of the accurate skill. If all it does is give you +1 to throwing, then strong arm and accurate are nothing more than "stackable" modifiers. It would seem dumb to have this since you are not allowed to add together modifiers with any other skills (such as claw and mighty blow).
4. Common sense states that a strong arm = a strong toss. If a long pass is nothing but a short one to you, then wouldn't it make sense that lobbing it a few extra squares is just as easy?
I will just restate what I said above. If these two skills are now allowed to work together, it should be stated in the skill. Just as multiple block says it doesn't work with frenzy. However, I think the skills should be allowed to be used together. It only makes sense, and with Strong Arm being a trait, it won't happen that often. Is there any good reason why they should not be used together? Other than the "because we said so" excuse?
Grumbledook - Feb 12, 2003 - 08:54 AM
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You delcared a dump off which is just a quick pass. You can't use strong arm to make a quick pass throw at short pass range, that would be increasing the range, not decreasing the morifcation.
Besides both chet and milo have both said you can't use it and seeing as they are both in BBRC who decide on the rules, you can't get more official than that. Clearest thing to do would just put strong arm can't be used with dump off in the dump off description.
Deathwing - Feb 12, 2003 - 08:56 AM
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By applying that logic I'm guessing that you believe Strong Arm allows you to throw a Long Pass in a blizzard? It doesn't.
I guess it could do with better wording. I've seen this come up a few times now.
Milo - Feb 12, 2003 - 09:00 AM
Post subject: Re: OK here comes my reasoning
liviath wrote:
There are many reasons why this should work under the way the rules are written. f it is not supposed to work than the rules need to be rewritten. I suggest changing the Dump Off to say "any player up to 3 squares". No way to argue how far you can throw then.
That would be a reasonable way to rewrite it. I'll try to remember to put it up for discussion in the next rules review.
liviath wrote:
Now for the reasons it should be allowed.
1. Dump Off states you are allowed to throw a Quick Pass worked out as a normal pass action. Strong Arm states that you reduce the range of a pass by one band. Therefore, "a long pass is treated as a short pass", or in our case a short pass is treated as a quick pass. So what was a short pass is now called a quick pass which meets the criteria of a dump off.
If I treat you like family, or a close relative, does that necessarily make you family or a close relative? A Quick Pass is a Quick Pass, just as my brother is my brother. Treating a good friend like my brother does not genetically intertwine us, or make us members of the same household.
liviath wrote:
2. This ties in with the first point. All the actions in Bloodbowl have the same procedure: declare, modify, roll the result. In a block, for example, you first declare the block. Then you may modify your ST with skills. If you roll a successful dauntless roll against an ogre your ST is then treated as 5. AFTER that, then you compare ST to determine the number of block dice used. A pass action works the same way. You first declare the pass. You may measure to any square you like. Strong Arm allows you to modify the range ruler itself making a short pass now a quick pass. Then you look up the modifiers to the roll and toss the die. I should think that if you are using the "+1 for a Quick Pass" modifier, the pass itself is considered a quick pass.
Strong Arm allows you to reduce the modifiers applied against the dice. It does not, however, alter the number of squares the ball travels, does it? Strong Arm doesn't actually reduce the distance -- it simply affects the difficulty of throwing the ball that distance.
liviath wrote:
3. Not being able to use strong arm makes this trait inferior to accurate and usually traits are better than skills. It is made inferior because accurate gives a +1 on all throws, while strong arm gives you +1 only on 3 of the 4 types a passes. Not being able to use strong arm also reduces it to just being another form of the accurate skill. If all it does is give you +1 to throwing, then strong arm and accurate are nothing more than "stackable" modifiers. It would seem dumb to have this since you are not allowed to add together modifiers with any other skills (such as claw and mighty blow).
Strong Arm is a trait to ensure that only dedicated Thrower players can get BOTH Accurate and Strong Arm, making a Thrower uniquely better than a player of the same race when it comes to throwing the ball. In other words, you can't develop a Lineman into the same quality thrower that you can a Thrower, regardless of the number of doubles rolls you throw when rolling for skills.
liviath wrote:
4. Common sense states that a strong arm = a strong toss. If a long pass is nothing but a short one to you, then wouldn't it make sense that lobbing it a few extra squares is just as easy?
That's true if we're just talking about distance, but the whole idea of Dump Off is that it allows you to interrupt a blitz to get rid of the ball. It stands to reason that a Thrower wouldn't have as much time to set his feet and chuck the ball under those conditions. The Quick Pass restriction represents the fact that the Thrower is just desperately chucking the ball away before he gets sacked.
liviath wrote:
I will just restate what I said above. If these two skills are not allowed to work together, it should be stated in the skill. Just as multiple block says it doesn't work with frenzy. However, I think the skills should be allowed to be used together. It only makes sense, and with Strong Arm being a trait, it won't happen that often. Is there any good reason why they should not be used together? Other than the "because we said so" excuse?
It is a valid point that we should make this distinction clearer in the next Rules Review. As for your individual points, I believe I responded to them individually in your message.
McSnaga - Feb 12, 2003 - 09:06 AM
Post subject: Re: OK here comes my reasoning
liviath wrote:
Common sense states that a strong arm = a strong toss. If a long pass is nothing but a short one to you, then wouldn't it make sense that lobbing it a few extra squares is just as easy?
I disagree with this on principle. Forget the rules for a minute: Just because someone has a super strong arm would not make very short passes any easier for them. Such passes are due to skill not strength. A stronger man will find very short passes no easier than those made by a weaker man. Would an Ogre with AG3 be a better passer than a Human?
Strong arm quite rightly gains no benefit for quick passes or dump offs.
I agree that a re-wording to clarify strong arm/dump off would be desirable.
biggy - Feb 17, 2003 - 05:56 PM
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Geez Liviath, give it a rest. No-one agrees with your interpretation. Just let it go. Please
smeborg - Feb 18, 2003 - 07:53 PM
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Hear, hear!
Give us a break, Liviath.
The wording of the rule is clear enough. Common sense and the opinion of all commissioners is against your view.
Just accept it and give us some peace and quiet.
Cheers
Smeborg the Fleshless
spree - Feb 18, 2003 - 10:47 PM
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YEAH!! The issue is dead and buried and it's time to lock the topic!!! LOCK IT LOCK IT LOCK IT LOCK IT!!!!!
err...sorry the ranting-bandwagon-jumping-raving-crowd-chanting-lunatic in us all got the better of me
Lloyd - Feb 25, 2003 - 06:30 AM
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I may be a little late into this arguement/discussion but I think it's a novel idea to use strong arm in the circumstance of dump off. It may be nasty to come up against but then again so are many other combinations especially to do with casualties.
Even though the official rules indicate that it isn't legal if someone came up with the combination I could not fault them for it and would let it happen if the circumstance arose. I'd be impressed to see it.
Also in a sense it goes towards making the skill unique and valuable in comparison to accurate as a first skill for a thrower which brings more character the game.
I'd also like to see it be a benefit in the conditions of a blizzard even though that is offically ruled against.
If any one has clean and clear evidence that this is now substantially unbalancing a game such as piling on in a previous thread I might change my mind.
For those of you who are purists in the rules of blood bowl don't worry I'll be sticking to the closest thing to the letter of the law when it comes to running Sydcon and won't allow this combination.
Don't let them disconcert you Liviath I admire this combination and you should feel free to rule however you please when you run your own tournament or league.
Deathwing - Feb 25, 2003 - 08:38 AM
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Lloyd wrote:
Don't let them disconcert you Liviath I admire this combination and you should feel free to rule however you please when you run your own tournament or league.
Nobody's trying to disconcert anybody here, but whether people believe it should be allowed or leagues are happy to house rule it is a different argument.
The thread title is 'I want an official ruling'. It's been given, simple as that.
KarlLindemann - Feb 27, 2003 - 05:21 PM
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i thought that strong arm didnt allow you to actually throw farther but it made it easier to throw by lowering it 1 band?(but I frequently screw a lot of things up so. . .meh)
Indigo - Feb 28, 2003 - 03:04 AM
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you're right karl - it's another case of 'selective interpretation'
however, the '3 square range' for dump off is flawed, as 3 diagonal squares are further than 3 horizontal or vertical squares. Stick with the existing description, but with a clear indication on the strong arm skill that it cannot be used to affect Dump Off.