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Rules Questions - pushing back a prone player?
Klize - Apr 26, 2004 - 05:59 PM
Post subject: pushing back a prone player?
I tried a search but couldnt nail this one down anywhere.
Specifically one of my guys is prone and adjacent to the sidelines. Another of my guys gets pow ...this guy has nowhere else to go...being next to standing players. Is it right for my opponent to have him be pushed into my downed player..who in turn goes into the crowd? Also..should an armor roll be made for the pushed into crowd result? Me
I think the guy should just fall where he is hit.
Comments?
Opus - Apr 26, 2004 - 07:46 PM
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When a player is either pushed or knocked down from a block (by rolling Push or Pow), here's what happens:
1) If there are ANY available squares (where this player could be pushed to) that are unoccupied, the player goes to one of those squares (at the discretion of the blocking coach).
2) If there are NO available squares that are unoccupied, the player is moved into ANY of the occupied squares (at the discretion of the blocking coach), AND the player in that occupied square (standing or not) is pushed as if they were pushed.
{And I'm purposefully ignoring SideStep here, hopefully for obvious reasons.}
So in this case, the answer is YES - the opposing coach CAN block your player "into" your prone player, effectively knocking him off the pitch and into the crowd. And YES - the player knocked into the crowd will be beaten up as such (no roll for armor, automatic injury roll).
One of the very rare situations where you can actually cause *2* casualties with one block (of course, the opponent wouldn't get the SPP for the crowd injury, but it will look REALLY good in the game report).
Sorry Klize. Do it to him first. 
Zombie - Apr 26, 2004 - 07:56 PM
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Some leagues house rule that you must push onto a standing player rather than a prone or stunned player if you have the choice. If your league doesn't have this house rule, then this move is allowed.
Falling down in his own square is definitely a no-go.
GE_Fu - Jun 23, 2004 - 02:02 PM
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And if the player (not prone) has Stand Firm ?
Melifaxis - Jun 23, 2004 - 02:39 PM
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Then he doesn't get pushed from his square.
GE_Fu - Jun 23, 2004 - 05:02 PM
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Code:
B E
A ->C F
D G
EFG have stand firm.
C must be pushed.
What happens ?
In the case where any one of EFG do not have stand firm, I know the answer : you must push the one who does not have stand firm.
I am stalled. You must push, but you can't ???
I would try : C is pushed back into his square and fall, but that does not sound right.
Or is it you hit a wall, then you scatter ? (Even worse)
Francois
Zombie - Jun 23, 2004 - 06:17 PM
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He falls in his own square.
If C has side step however, he's got 2 places where he can go and must chose one of them.
slup - Jun 24, 2004 - 12:36 AM
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Zombie wrote:
If C has side step however, he's got 2 places where he can go and must chose one of them.
Only if he chooses to use the skill.
slup - Jun 24, 2004 - 12:40 AM
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GE_Fu wrote:
Code:
B E
A ->C F
D G
EFG have stand firm.
C must be pushed.
What happens ?
In the case where any one of EFG do not have stand firm, I know the answer : you must push the one who does not have stand firm.
I am stalled. You must push, but you can't ???
I would try : C is pushed back into his square and fall, but that does not sound right.
Or is it you hit a wall, then you scatter ? (Even worse)
Francois
Pushing into a player with stand firm (who chooses to use the trait) means that the player is not pushed back.
In your case C doesn't move.
You do not have to choose a player without stand firm, if all 3 squares are occupied you are free to choose from them all regardless of which skills or traits they have.
Zombie - Jun 24, 2004 - 01:03 AM
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I think you're right in that there's nothing in the rules distinguishing possible squares other than empty or not. However, the vast majority of people play that you must choose a non stand firm player over a stand firm one, and don't consider that as house rules.
Tio_Luiso - Jun 24, 2004 - 01:29 AM
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As I see it, there is a sequence:
1.- The blocking player (A) gets a PUSHBACK / POW result
2.- If C has neither stand firm nor sidestep, he chooses between the free available squares and pushes the player there. If there aren't any free squares, then he chooses amongst the occupied squares (E,F,G). Don't mind the skills/traits that E, F or G could have. Then, A can choose to follow C (expect if he has frenzy, in which case he HAS TO follow).
3.- If C has stand firm, he can choose not to be pushed back. And A cannot follow.
4.- If C has sidestep, he can choose the square where he can be pushed back to, amongst all the 8 squares around him.
And this is resolved recursively, doing subsequent pushbacks from C to E, F or G. If they have stand firm, they can choose not to be pushed back. If they do so, C cannot follow, so A cannot follow C.
Zombie - Jun 24, 2004 - 01:38 AM
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Like i said, it's not explicitely stated in the rules, but a lot of leagues make you have to choose certain squares over others according to the following priorities:
1. Empty square.
2. Crowd.
3. Square occupied by player without stand firm.
4. Square occupied by player with stand firm (i.e. stay where you are).
GE_Fu - Jun 24, 2004 - 04:33 AM
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Zombie wrote:
I think you're right in that there's nothing in the rules distinguishing possible squares other than empty or not. However, the vast majority of people play that you must choose a non stand firm player over a stand firm one, and don't consider that as house rules.
Actually there is an official answer in the LRB3 Faq for that.
If a player has to be pushed it is 1. empty square 2. player/off the field (moving team choice) and if one has stand firm the others first.
OK, so this is a case where stand firm protects the pushed player.
By the way, Stan Firm states cannot be pushed back, so it is not a choice.
But it might apply to me as I can have 3 players on the field with stand firm (2 treemen plus a star).
Francois
Tio_Luiso - Jun 24, 2004 - 04:55 AM
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Quote:
By the way, Stan Firm states cannot be pushed back, so it is not a choice
You sure about that? It's true that LRB3.0 states:
Quote:
A player with this skill is never pushed back as the result of a block
but it also states:
Quote:
He may completely ignore 'Push back' results
so it can be interpreted that it is optional.
Tio_Luiso - Jun 24, 2004 - 05:37 AM
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By the way. From the document "Official Clarifications and Q&A for Living Rule Book" (http://www.specialist-games.com/bloodbowl/assets/pdf/tlr/LRB3Q&A.pdf):
Quote:
Q: Is trait use mandatory?
A: Unless otherwise stated in the trait's description, trait use is not mandatory. For example, the description for Frenzy states thar the player must use it while others (such as Stand Firm) do not.
slup - Jun 24, 2004 - 05:53 AM
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GE_Fu wrote:
Actually there is an official answer in the LRB3 Faq for that.
If a player has to be pushed it is 1. empty square 2. player/off the field (moving team choice) and if one has stand firm the others first.
I can't seem to find this in the official Q&A, please provide a quote.
GE_Fu wrote:
OK, so this is a case where stand firm protects the pushed player.
By the way, Stan Firm states cannot be pushed back, so it is not a choice.
I'm with Tio on this one. You do not have to use a skill/trait (except frenzy) just because you've got it, and a player who doesn't use a skill is regarded as not having it.
GE_Fu - Jun 25, 2004 - 05:50 AM
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I stand corrected : straight from the Living Rulebook 3.0 :
LRB3.0 wrote:
Stand Firm (Strength Trait)
A player with this skill is never pushed back as the result of a block. He may completely ignore ???Push Back??? results, and 'Knock-down' results always knock the player over in the square where he started. If a player is pushed back into a player with Stand Firm then neither player moves. In addition, the player does not fall over if he fails a Dodge roll. Although the player stays on his feet, he must return to his starting square. His action ends and he may do nothing else that turn. A turnover, however, does not take place.
Highlight mine.
Also straight from the LRB3.0 :
LRB3.0 wrote:
Push Backs: A player that is pushed back as a result of a block must be moved one square away from the player making the block, as shown in the diagrams. The coach of the player who made the block may decide which square the player is moved to.
The player must be pushed back into an empty square if possible. If all such squares are occupied by other players, then the player is pushed into an occupied square, and the player that originally occupied the square is pushed back in turn. This secondary push back is treated exactly like a normal push back as if the second player had been blocked by the first. The coach of the moving team decides all push back directions for secondary push backs unless the pushed player has a skill that overrides this.
Players must be pushed off the field if there are no eligible empty squares on the field. A player pushed off the field is beaten up by the crowd and must roll on the Injury Table (see Injuries, opposite). No modifiers apply to this roll.
You can then push back and apply the block result to your own player if you are not smart.
Player pushes a player with side step : no empty square, other coach chooses one of your players -> both falls (if block results state so) -> turnover.
Order would then be :
1. Empty Square
2. Off Field
3. Other player
4. Other player w/stand firm (and if other coach chooses to apply it -> no move)
Example where all of that could apply :
Code:
*
FG*
DE*
BC*
A *
*
A push B, coach chooses D, D goes in free square.
coach chooses E, E goes off field
coach chooses C, C goes off field
On top of that as the original block result applies, you can get 2 casualties with one block attempt for real. The 
result will get applied to both players. In that example, if you want to try the double casualty, you should obviously choose D.
Otherwise, you can take the safe path and push them off-field. 1 possible CAS and one player out for the drive for sure.
Would mighty blow get applied to both block ? I would tend to say yes, as the rules say that the original block result applies to both. What do you think ?
The debate during the game was quite heated. With some time to investigate quite easy to sort out.
Sorry for mischoosing the actual sources. I did not have the time to look it up properly.
The same opponent then failed to score on 4 consecutive dodge rolls 
during the same match of course. He was quite mad at me 
Francois
Zombie - Jun 25, 2004 - 06:22 AM
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The second player is only pushed back. He can't be taken down, no matter what you rolled.
According to the official rules, a player with stand firm can be chosen over a normal player (like i said, this is only a house rule).
slup - Jun 25, 2004 - 06:31 AM
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Francois, it is only the push back that is applied to D or E, not the knock down.
Unless using multiple block you can only knock down one player with one block.
Quote:
This secondary push back is treated exactly like a normal push back as if the second player had been blocked by the first
Also note that even when using side step, you are still only allowed to choose empty squares when being pushed.
You cannot side step into another player.
And you still owe me a quote for the following:
Quote:
Actually there is an official answer in the LRB3 Faq for that.
If a player has to be pushed it is 1. empty square 2. player/off the field (moving team choice) and if one has stand firm the others first.
mikeyc222 - Jun 25, 2004 - 03:18 PM
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GE_Fu wrote:
...the rules say that the original block result applies to both...
sorry, man. that's a big fat negative. the rules only refer to pushing back NOT knocking down a secondary push. no where does it mention the block result.
GE_Fu - Jun 27, 2004 - 09:11 AM
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mikeyc222 wrote:
GE_Fu wrote:
...the rules say that the original block result applies to both...
sorry, man. that's a big fat negative. the rules only refer to pushing back NOT knocking down a secondary push. no where does it mention the block result.
Oooops...
Seems o me I can't even read what I quote correctly...
Francois
Tio_Luiso - Jun 29, 2004 - 12:25 AM
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1.- Secondary pushbacks are just that: pushbacks. Pow's do not propagate.
2.- I don't see why I couldn't choose a Stand firm player over a non-stand firm player for secondary pushbacks. Obviously, free squares are chosen above occupied ones. Say, in the next diagram:
A E
BDF
C G
Where A, B, and C are my players, D is an opponent's player, and E, F and G are my players. F has Stand Firm. I could hit him with A. Pushback. I choose to push him into F. So no pushback. Then I could hit him with B. Pushback. I choose to push him into F. So no pushback. And so on...
3.- While most times I'll want to use Stand Firm, it's up to me to choose if I use it or not, like any other skill or trait. There might be times where I would want to be pushed back. I remember, however, that javabbowl doesn't let you choose if you use it or not. It's always used. A pity.
Zombie - Jun 29, 2004 - 01:13 AM
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No you couldn't. On the first block with A, you'd have to push him in the empty square between C and G.
Tio_Luiso - Jun 30, 2004 - 12:02 AM
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True. I failed to see that. but if the diagram were something like
Where are my players, are my players with Stand Firm and is the opponent, it would be overkill, but i could hit the opponent with every player without pushing him.
On the other side, in the next diagram:
if my opponent blocks my player (whom has Stand Firm) with his player , and the result is a pushback, I can choose not to use Stand Firm, to get to the next diagram:
Where are the possible pushback directions.
Tio_Luiso - Jun 30, 2004 - 12:05 AM
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Sorry. The second diagram was something like this:
where is the square just left by the blocker (if he chooses to follow)
Tio_Luiso - Jun 30, 2004 - 12:06 AM
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Sorry again. Not the second, but the third diagram.
Zombie - Jun 30, 2004 - 12:09 AM
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If you've got 8 players surrounding the opponent, you don't need stand firm to get 8 blocks on him. Push him onto anyone of your players who hasn't played yet. Push that player straight. Then hit him back with this same player to get him back inside the "cage". Rinse and repeat.
Tio_Luiso - Jun 30, 2004 - 12:11 AM
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Yup. Obviously. Only for the sake of demonstrating that I don't have to choose a non-Stand Firm player over a Stand-Firm Player.
Thanks anyway.