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Rules Questions - When is a caught pass a turnover?
smeborg - Mar 06, 2003 - 12:40 PM
Post subject: When is a caught pass a turnover?
Please help me with this one. I think I know the answer, but I have a difference of opinion.
An inaccurate pass scatters, bounces and is then caught by a member of the moving team (who was not the target of the pass). Is it a turnover?
Cheers
Smeborg th Fleshless
fe2mike - Mar 06, 2003 - 01:22 PM
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Simply put, No, it is not a turnover.
See turnovers section of the Living Rule Book, page 14.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 06, 2003 - 01:22 PM
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If you throw a pass, and when the ball comes to FINAL rest (and it doesn't matter HOW it got there bouncing off players, the ground, the crowd, failed catch rolls, etc); if the ball is in the hands of one of your players (ANY player from your team) it is not a turnover.
Galak
skummy - Mar 06, 2003 - 01:46 PM
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And yes, if Thrud switches sides and catches a bouncing ball, it is a a turnover since he's not currently on your team.
ZanzerTem - Mar 06, 2003 - 02:10 PM
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We rule differently. My commish feels that if the pass itself is not caught, it is a turnover. Im the above example, he would say that the SCATTER was caught (it bounced off of the ground), not the pass.
Bevan - Mar 06, 2003 - 02:25 PM
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BloodbasherMasher wrote:
We rule differently. My commish feels that if the pass itself is not caught, it is a turnover. Im the above example, he would say that the SCATTER was caught (it bounced off of the ground), not the pass.
Your commish can make any house rules he wants, but just remember not to use house rules in tournaments. 
The only situation in which a pass ends up caught by the moving team and is a turnover is when the pass was fumbled. In that case it is a turnover even if a player on the team catches it.
Doubleskulls - Mar 06, 2003 - 02:39 PM
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Yes, the rules are quite clear - they didn't use to be. But it only matters where the ball finally comes to rest.
spree - Mar 06, 2003 - 05:13 PM
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BloodbasherMasher wrote:
We rule differently. My commish feels that if the pass itself is not caught, it is a turnover. Im the above example, he would say that the SCATTER was caught (it bounced off of the ground), not the pass.
I would've agreed with you..until I checked out LRB pg 14 as suggested!!
LRB2 pg 14.
"TURNOVERS
If the ball isn't caught by a player from the moving team, a turnover takes place and the moving team's turn ends. The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest. This means that if the ball misses the target but is still caught by a player from the moving team, then a turnover does not take place. The ball could even scatter out of bounds, be thrown back into an empty square, and as long as it was caught by a player from the moving team then the turnover would be avoided!"
Was this wording put into LRB1? I don't recall ever reading this before.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 06, 2003 - 06:02 PM
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spree wrote:
Was this wording put into LRB1? I don't recall ever reading this before.
Hee .... try opening the 3rd edition Blood Bowl rulebook and reading page 13 ... to most coaches surprise ... a very clear wording (ie the wording you just printed) has been around for over a decade.
Galak
ZanzerTem - Mar 06, 2003 - 08:51 PM
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I'll lobby my commish to change the ruling because I'm not sure he was aware of that wording.
Indigo - Mar 07, 2003 - 02:05 AM
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technically speaking, the only time a caught pass is a turnover is if it was intercepted 
Sputnik - Mar 07, 2003 - 05:09 AM
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smeborg wrote:
Quote:
An inaccurate pass scatters, bounces and is then caught by a member of the moving team (who was not the target of the pass). Is it a turnover?
Was it you suffering from Andy H.'s overruling at the BB?? 
Well, whoever it was made the TD, as I heard.
Sputnik
Grumbledook - Mar 07, 2003 - 10:13 AM
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this happened in longfangs last game the catch failed but it bounced and another team member caught it, andy ruled it was a turnover as the pass failed.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 07, 2003 - 10:21 AM
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Grumbledook wrote:
this happened in longfangs last game the catch failed but it bounced and another team member caught it, andy ruled it was a turnover as the pass failed.
Please please tell me that someone showed Andy the actual text in the rulebook ... geeesch! I'd have gotten a red card for sure if that had been my game.
Galak
Apedog - Mar 07, 2003 - 12:30 PM
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Just for the record I think it should be changed to say that if the ball bounces it is a turnover, but I agree that at the moment it can bounce and be caught and not be a turnover.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 07, 2003 - 02:03 PM
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Apedog wrote:
Just for the record I think it should be changed to say that if the ball bounces it is a turnover
WHY? .... serious Munkey/Agedog ... I've played using this rule properly (ie not a turnover) for 10 years of league and occassional play. I've NEVER seen anyone complain. In fact it creates some great plays that get talked about for weeks to come.
We just had in my league a pass be dropped by the catcher. It bounced out of bounds, got throw in by the crowd to other part of the crowd, got thrown in again landed on the ground and bounced onto the thrower who caught it.
That a funny and great play ... it gets talked about. I do NOT under any circumstance want this rule to get changed.
I think enough rules have changed to remove the great plays from Blood Bowl that this one could survive .... sorry ... sore subject.
Galak
Darkson - Mar 07, 2003 - 02:30 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
We just had in my league a pass be dropped by the catcher. It bounced out of bounds, got throw in by the crowd to other part of the crowd, got thrown in again landed on the ground and bounced onto the thrower who caught it.
That a funny and great play ... it gets talked about. I do NOT under any circumstance want this rule to get changed.
Are you talking about my Vamps? It would have been even funnier if it hadn't stopped a certain touchdown 
GalakStarscraper - Mar 08, 2003 - 03:55 PM
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Darkson wrote:
Are you talking about my Vamps? It would have been even funnier if it hadn't stopped a certain touchdown
Your teams create all the cool stories, Darkson .... at least I've stopped talking about the time a Halfling team left you with only 3 Skaven players on the pitch by the end of the game .... ooooppsss .. sorry about that ... did it again.
Melifaxis - Mar 08, 2003 - 04:14 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Your teams create all the cool stories, Darkson .... at least I've stopped talking about the time a Halfling team left you with only 3 Skaven players on the pitch by the end of the game .... ooooppsss .. sorry about that ... did it again.
What!??!?
Deathwing - Mar 08, 2003 - 05:02 PM
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Hey..I got one! Friendly v. Marcus last year sometime. Gutter Runner in the End Zone flubs the scoring catch (maybe an inaccurate pass?). Whatever, ball goes out of the back of the EZ, the crowd throw it in a whole 2 squares and it bounces straight back into the hands of the GR for the score.
Another Blood Bowl moment.
Darkson - Mar 09, 2003 - 12:28 AM
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Melifaxis wrote:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Your teams create all the cool stories, Darkson .... at least I've stopped talking about the time a Halfling team left you with only 3 Skaven players on the pitch by the end of the game .... ooooppsss .. sorry about that ... did it again.
What!??!?
Galak had kindly agreed to be my opponent in my 1st PBeM game, using his halfling team, with 2 treemen and Deeproot.
However, it wasn't the trees that did the damage (who all turned up for the 1st half 
) or the fact I had next to no re-rolls (damn Masterchefs ), it was the factt I was playing killer halflings who could break my armour with great regularity, whereas, as I was to find is normal for me, I couldn't break AV at all. I think I caused 1 cas in total?
Would check the game log, but it was lost in a computer crash 
. Do you still have a copy Galak?
GalakStarscraper - Mar 09, 2003 - 06:52 AM
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Darkson wrote:
Would check the game log, but it was lost in a computer crash
. Do you still have a copy Galak?
No its gone .... and I'm 90% sure I didn't freeboot a Master Chef. I just think the dice where kind to me (both trees passed their Take Root rolls) and not to you ... couldn't knock down or injury the Flings.
Galak
longfang - Mar 09, 2003 - 04:17 PM
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This happened in my first game (Gdook) against Smeborg. Seeing as I don't actually play the game much (8 competitve games since October and 3 friendlies before the Dutch open) I don't know the rules and nor do I have the time to trawl through the 5 pages of "posts since your last visit" that appear when I log into TBB every few days. So I rely on other people to know the rules. AH felt a bit embaressed by his error but he should be forgiven as he probably had a lot on his plate over the weekend. Happily his error didn't make any difference to the game and Smeborg got a deserved win in a game that was swinging wildly in each others favour resulting in plenty of "tits up" moments.
smeborg - Mar 09, 2003 - 07:20 PM
Post subject: Wrong ruling from Andy Hall
Thanks guys.
I knew the answer, but thought I'd check, as I had a wrong ruling on this during the tournament from Andy Hall, of all people.
My fault for asking him - I should have solved the problem myself, or called someone like Brian StJames.
By great good fortune, the ruling did not influence the match result.
Cheers
Smeborg the Fleshless
smeborg - Mar 09, 2003 - 07:23 PM
Post subject: For Longfang
Longfang -
That was a really wild game wasn't it? Maybe my dice were cursed after all!
I think 6 games like that over a weekend would see both of us in the loony bin.
Thanks for being sporting.
Cheers
Smeborg the Fleshless
Apedog - Mar 10, 2003 - 11:14 AM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Apedog wrote:
Just for the record I think it should be changed to say that if the ball bounces it is a turnover
WHY? .... serious Munkey/Agedog ... I've played using this rule properly (ie not a turnover) for 10 years of league and occassional play...
Just Asthetics really, that way feels more right to me and slightly more intuitive to explain to players.
Especially when we have to devolve into a long discussion over whether the catch was a turnover or not and I have to laboriously point out to my opponents the relavent sections of the rules and make them read them. Properly. (Perhaps that's just my problem though).
In all honesty I'm not too bothered, it's a rare occurrence anyway so it's not going to even affect many games.
daloonieshaman - Mar 14, 2003 - 01:03 AM
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Awesome clarification, I am not the commish just a division rep here is the quote from the rules
"TURNOVERS
If the ball isn???t caught by a player from the moving
team, a turnover takes place and the moving team???s
turn ends. The turnover does not take place until the
ball finally comes to rest. This means that if the ball
misses the target but is still caught by a player from
the moving team, then a turnover does not take place.
The ball could even scatter out of bounds, be thrown
back into an empty square, and as long as it was
caught by a player from the moving team then the
turnover would be avoided!"
-Q- - Mar 14, 2003 - 09:49 AM
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I have to admit that the fumble thing still confuses me. Which paragraph wording supercedes which? We all know the page 13 text says that if it's in the moving team's hand when the ball finally comes to rest that it's not a turnover. We also know that the wording for fumble says that the ball will bounce one square and the moving team will suffer a turnover and their turn ends immediately. However it doesn't go on to clarify "even if caught by a member of your team" so it could be that they meant the text on page 13 to be the final ruling on when it is or isn't a turnover and were just sloppy in the wording of a fumble. The lack of clarification could be because it's one of the advanced rules listed later in the rulebook from the "quick game" type rules.
I don't mean to get anyone angry about this I'm just trying to understand.
It seems a bit silly to me that if a guy misses a catch and his friend next to him gets the ball that isn't a turnover but if a thrower drops the ball and it's caught by the teammate next to him it is.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 14, 2003 - 10:11 AM
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-Q- wrote:
It seems a bit silly to me that if a guy misses a catch and his friend next to him gets the ball that isn't a turnover but if a thrower drops the ball and it's caught by the teammate next to him it is.
Doesn't to me ... guys downfield know its going to be a passing play and are looking for the pass. The guy next to the thrower sure as heck isn't planning on him dropping the ball into his lap. Its a game mechanic, but not one that bothers me in the least.
Passes caught by one of your guys when it comes to rest = no turnover.
Fumbles caught by one of your guys when it comes to rest = turnover.
A Fumble is not a Pass ... its what a pass turns into on a modified 1 or less.
Galak