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Rules Questions - Kick
Puckohue - Nov 12, 2004 - 10:12 AM
Post subject: Kick
If you set up a player with the Kick skill in the appropriate zone on the field and declare that he's taking the kick off, are you allowed to choose not to use the kick skill, after rolling for the distance the ball scatters?
I would say yes, but I want more people's opinion.
GalakStarscraper - Nov 12, 2004 - 10:28 AM
Post subject: Re: Kick
Puckohue wrote:
If you set up a player with the Kick skill in the appropriate zone on the field and declare that he's taking the kick off, are you allowed to choose not to use the kick skill, after rolling for the distance the ball scatters?
I would say yes, but I want more people's opinion.
All skill use is optional unless otherwise stated. So you can wait to see the D6 roll for the scatter before declaring if you are using kick or not.
Galak
Spazzfist - Nov 12, 2004 - 10:38 AM
Post subject: Re: Kick
GalakStarscraper wrote:
All skill use is optional unless otherwise stated. So you can wait to see the D6 roll for the scatter before declaring if you are using kick or not.
Well, while I do not disagree that all skill use is optional, I would think that people should declare whether or not they are using the kick skill before rolling the dice.
In the 'fluff' way it just makes more sense, IMHO. 
Darkson - Nov 12, 2004 - 10:49 AM
Post subject: Re: Kick
Spazzfist wrote:
In the 'fluff' way it just makes more sense, IMHO.
In a Real World sense I agree, but I'm happy to play it as the rules intend.
Spazzfist - Nov 12, 2004 - 11:00 AM
Post subject: Re: Kick
Darkson wrote:
In a Real World sense I agree, but I'm happy to play it as the rules intend.
I also am happy to play by the way as intended by the rules, I am just not convinced that this was what was intended by the rules, or whether it is a loophole that people are exploiting. (Damn lawayers!)
KarlLagerbottom - Nov 12, 2004 - 11:53 AM
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Spazz-
I think that we're going to lose this one. Sililar skills like Diving Tackle, Mighty Blow, Break Tackle, etc. are played with the rolls are made before the decision.
That seems to make it more of a game mechanic and tactic than for fluff/fun...but that is the way folks are playing them.
-Rob
P.S. Besdides...you should just really concentrate on picking up the damn ball. 
GalakStarscraper - Nov 12, 2004 - 11:55 AM
Post subject: Re: Kick
Spazzfist wrote:
I also am happy to play by the way as intended by the rules, I am just not convinced that this was what was intended by the rules, or whether it is a loophole that people are exploiting. (Damn lawayers!)
It is not a loophole. ALL the skills are meant to be declared after seeing the dice unless its say otherwise.
Diving Tackle ... wait to see if you opponent fails the roll anyway or gets that 6 for automatic success before using it.
Mighty Blow ... wait to see the armour roll before you decide what to do with it.
Vault version of Piling On ... wait to see the armour roll before you decide what to do with it.
I could go one ... but all the skills are roll first declare after (again unless otherwise stated) and it is delibrate ... not a loophole.
Galak
Spazzfist - Nov 12, 2004 - 01:54 PM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:
...you should just really concentrate on picking up the damn ball.
Shut up! 
Just shut up!
...or else I will sick the bunnies on you! (more on that soon!)
Spazz
Clan_Skaven - Nov 12, 2004 - 03:20 PM
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Spazzfist wrote:
KarlLagerbottom wrote:
...you should just really concentrate on picking up the damn ball.
Shut up!
Just shut up!
...or else I will sick the bunnies on you! (more on that soon!)
Spazz
You 2 in the Airport would be a laugh,....
Karl keeps dropping his Passport & Spazz can't seem to pick it up for him.
AWSOME PAIR! 
Grumbledook - Nov 13, 2004 - 11:29 AM
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well if the player has the kick skill surely he should be better at kicking then most, being able to choose to use the actual roll over the rounded off roll just adds to that image imho
juck101 - Nov 15, 2004 - 03:14 PM
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this is a good reason why vault kick off table is so good, as basic early teams do get the brunt from kick skill. I have seen it win games for this very reason. - with wood i tend to kick 3away from edge/side and have so far never given a touchback.
KarlLagerbottom - Nov 15, 2004 - 09:56 PM
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Grum-
I know this is off topic, but I dig the new avatar.
-Rob
Disdane - Nov 19, 2004 - 11:29 AM
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Depends on your league.
Our league you would need to declare if you are using the kick skill before you roll for scatter.
Same would be true of other skills.
Piling on, you would need to declare whether or not you are going to use this skill before rolling to break armor.
Diving tackle, you again need to declare whether or not you are going to use the skill before the opposing player makes his block roll.
Some leagues are very by the book and others interpret the rules in a manner that they feel is more in keeping with what they feel how the game was intended to be played.
Doubleskulls - Nov 19, 2004 - 03:26 PM
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Disdane wrote:
Some leagues are very by the book and others interpret the rules in a manner that they feel is more in keeping with what they feel how the game was intended to be played.
The rules are very clear on the matter and given that the BBRC have had several chances to change the rules you ought to concede that skill use is after the dice have been rolled is the way it is intended to be.
I have zero problem with people house ruling BB to suit themselves, I just don't like it dressed up as "interpretation" when its clear.
Puckohue - Nov 19, 2004 - 08:01 PM
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couldn't have put ir clearer, doubleskulls.
KarlLagerbottom - Nov 19, 2004 - 08:58 PM
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Disdane wrote:
Piling on, you would need to declare whether or not you are going to use this skill before rolling to break armor.
Why is this so? If I read the rule correctly, isn't this just a re-roll of the armour roll?
-Rob
Spazzfist - Nov 19, 2004 - 09:12 PM
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Jeez, KL stop trying to hikack this thread! 
I think what he is suggesting is that the piling on would have to be declared before the armour roll. If you did not declare it, then the reroll would not be allowed. Correct?
Darkson - Nov 20, 2004 - 08:43 AM
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Or they may be using the old version, where you can add your ST to the AV roll in order to break it.
Disdane - Nov 20, 2004 - 09:38 AM
Post subject:
KarlLagerbottom
Why is this so? If I read the rule correctly, isn't this just a re-roll of the armour roll?
It's our houserule that you must declare if you're going to use a skill before the outcome of any dice roll.
We simply feel it lesson's our decisions as coaches to play the way the current ruling is. Oh look Player A threw a block against Player B and got a 
. Player A rolls 2d6 to break armor and rolls a 6 when he needed an 8. Well now Player A decides to now use Piling on since he knows it will break Player B's armor. Wow that was a tough choice to make.
Instead we use Player A must decide whether or not he will use Piling On before and armor roll is made. Actually making his coaching ability count for something. If he uses Piling on and still only rolls a 5 on 2d6 he didn't break Player B's armor and now his player is laying prone on the pitch for Player B's guy with Dirty Player to foul on his next turn.
The same thing can be said about Diving Tackle, Dirty Player and Kick. I understand this is not the official ruling and if I played in a sanctioned event I would have to follow the official rulings. We however enjoy making tougher choices as coaches than what the current ruling calls for.
snew - Nov 20, 2004 - 10:42 AM
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I don't see it as making your choices tougher during gameplay as during skill choosing. If you get a skill choice, are you really going to take a skill you're probably not going to use? No! The only thing playing your way is going to do is cut the skill choices down and everyone's team will look the same. It hardly adds to the game.
Disdane - Nov 20, 2004 - 10:59 AM
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Really?
Kick skill - Place the ball, roll on kick off table, roll for scatter, then decide whether or not to use kick skill. Versus Place the ball, decide whether or not to use kick skill, roll on kick off table, roll for scatter. Let's say the ball scatters toward the scrimmage line does it matter if it scatters 3 or 6 hexes?
Diving Tackle - Wait to see if Player B's block will knock your player down before you decide whether or not to use Diving Tackle. Player B rolls a so you then decide no wait let me use diving tackle to see if I knock you down or push you back since I now know you're going to knock me down.
Dirty Player - I'll wait and see if I break your armor with just a straight dice roll before I decide to use Dirty player to help break your armor or to injure you.
No, none of those things would change your decision.
Darkson - Nov 20, 2004 - 11:03 AM
Post subject:
Um...
Diving Tackle is used when someone dodges away from you.
So, does you have to declare you'll use Dodge before you roll the dice? If so, that means you can only use it on the first dodge you attempt, wheter it's sucessful on the first dice roll or not. That's a gameplay change to me.
Clan_Skaven - Nov 20, 2004 - 12:00 PM
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House rule is a house rule, but that does not make it the propper or should I say official rule.
Kick skill you do not have to declare you are going to use it before any dice are tossed. If you say you have to do this in a house rule, do you then say your going to use your Dodge Skill before you roll the dice on a Dodge attempt?
GalakStarscraper - Nov 20, 2004 - 12:04 PM
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Darkson wrote:
So, does you have to declare you'll use Dodge before you roll the dice? If so, that means you can only use it on the first dodge you attempt, wheter it's sucessful on the first dice roll or not. That's a gameplay change to me.
Exactly what I was wondering Darkson.
If I have to announce I'm using Dodge before rolling the Dodge roll that would make Goblins and Halflings almost unplayable.
I've always considered the roll first and then apply skills rule of Blood Bowl one of the best changes made.
And Disdane ... you are using an old version of Piling On as well it would appear ... and definitely are using an old version of Diving Tackle.
Galak
Disdane - Nov 21, 2004 - 02:16 PM
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We still use Diving Tackle the way it was originally worded in Death Zone.
Diving Tackle - The player may use this skill if an opposing player enters his tackle zone. It allows the player to interrupt the oppenent's turn and throw a block at the moving player. The block is worked out using all the normal rules (both sides may use assists). If the opposing player is pushed back or knocked over, then their move ends immediately and they may not do anything else that turn, although their team does not suffer a turnover unless the player was holding the ball and drops it. Although a player using a Diving Tackle ends up on the ground for a moment, because it is a controlled fall he will not be injured and he will almost instantly regain his feet. Therefore the player is not knocked over when he uses the skill, unless he suffers an "attacker down" or "both players down" result on the Block dice.
The new version of Diving Tackle makes it an almost completely worthless skill.
As for declaring you are going to use the Dodge skill...
Dodge - A player with the Dodge skill is allowed to re-roll the dice if he fails to dodge out of an opposing player's tackle zone. However, the player may only re-roll one failed Dodge roll per team turn. In addition, the Dodge skill affects the results rolled on the Block dice, as explained in the Blocking rules in the Blood Bowl Handbook.
So it states Dodge skill is used after you have failed, Diving Tackle does not state you may use it after the opposing player has rolled a knock down on you. It says if an opposing player enters your tackle zone.
Zombie - Nov 21, 2004 - 03:24 PM
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Disdane, you are obviously using tons of house rules. Listen to these guys, all skills are declared after the roll nowadaws. And all but diving tackle and piling on were declared after in the past.
Disdane - Nov 21, 2004 - 06:36 PM
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If you had read my earlier post I already stated they were our house rules. I just joined this board to see what was going on change wise with Bloodbowl and to see how others were playing the game. So far I'm in agreement with your signature.
Hoshi_Komi - Nov 21, 2004 - 06:46 PM
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diving tackle is very useful against amazons. if you think diving tackle is worthless...you haven't seen it in action.
GalakStarscraper - Nov 21, 2004 - 06:48 PM
Post subject:
gken1 wrote:
diving tackle is very useful against amazons. if you think diving tackle is worthless...you haven't seen it in action.
Man ... do i agree with that. I've seen a LOT of discussions that the new Diving Tackle is too power. Its the first skill that I give Halflings or Goblins to make a successful team. Shutting down dodgy teams is really useful.
Oh course ... you have to use the official rules which allow you to use Diving Tackle AFTER you see the dodge dice roll for it to be the great skill that it is.
Galak
fe2mike - Nov 22, 2004 - 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Its the first skill that I give Halflings or Goblins to make a successful team. Shutting down dodgy teams is really useful.
I'll have to try that, I always took sidestep 1st.
Hoshi_Komi - Nov 22, 2004 - 06:02 PM
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On doubles, diving tackle is AWESOME on Chaos Dwarves or Longbeards.
U only use it if a player fails a dodge, then since they already have tackle no Dodge rr, and then if they decide to RR...it's still at -2
Doubleskulls - Nov 22, 2004 - 06:22 PM
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Disdane,
I think if you play LRB 3.0 or LRB 4.0 you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much better it plays than 3rd edition (i.e. Death Zone).
DT is a good example of that. Under 3rd ed it was a broken skill. Give it to Mummies or any S4 or S5 player and you had someone who basically couldn't be tackled. It was a game breaker.
Now its a very useful skill in the right situation. For many teams it helps shut down agile teams and make bashing team's lives harder, but you've got to be tactically astute to get the best out of it.
For me that pretty much sums up a lot of the differences between the editions. LRB is much more a tactical game, where 3rd ed was about getting the right combos (Dirty Player & Pro for example) and the strategic elements of game.