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Rules Questions - Bombardiers & lighting the fuse
Indigo - Feb 08, 2005 - 06:36 AM
Post subject: Bombardiers & lighting the fuse
The rules for the bomb secret weapon state that when lighting the fuse a player cannot move and must make a 2+ roll. The fuse is then lit and the bomb can be thrown.
However, it doesn't say that the bomb MUST be thrown - is it possible to light the fuse on one turn and then move & throw the lit bomb on another?
Also, Bomba Dribblesnot has Accurate. While this definitely counts for throwing the ball, does it count for throwing the bomb too? I'm sure that was the intention but it's not stated for sure anywhere.
Finally... none of the Secret Weapon Gobbos have Stunty. Although this means they cannot dodge quite so well, do you agree it also means no +1 modifier to injury rolls?
Spazzfist - Feb 08, 2005 - 07:13 AM
Post subject: Re: Bombardiers & lighting the fuse
Indigo wrote:
However, it doesn't say that the bomb MUST be thrown - is it possible to light the fuse on one turn and then move & throw the lit bomb on another?
Seeing as the bomb is lit and then blows up on the same turn, I would not want to hold on to it!
Indigo wrote:
Also, Bomba Dribblesnot has Accurate. While this definitely counts for throwing the ball, does it count for throwing the bomb too? I'm sure that was the intention but it's not stated for sure anywhere.
I would assume that this is the case.
Indigo wrote:
Finally... none of the Secret Weapon Gobbos have Stunty. Although this means they cannot dodge quite so well, do you agree it also means no +1 modifier to injury rolls?
Stunty injuries are a racial thing - you just have to live with it - they do not get the dodge bonus because of the weapon that they carry - that should not rule out injuries.
Spazz
Indigo - Feb 08, 2005 - 07:29 AM
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The injury modifier is definitely a stunty-characteristic only thing - I just wanted someone to agree with me!
Also, it doesn't state the bomb will explode in the same turn it's lit, hence my question 
Spazzfist - Feb 08, 2005 - 08:23 AM
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Indigo wrote:
Also, it doesn't state the bomb will explode in the same turn it's lit, hence my question
Jeez Indigo, do you have your degree in law, or is lawyering just a hobby?
Indigo - Feb 08, 2005 - 09:12 AM
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lol point taken, but having the ability to light the bomb then move it to where you really need it would be VERY handy
since most tourneys don't allow stars I want to get full use out of them when I do get to finally use them!
KarlLagerbottom - Feb 08, 2005 - 10:07 AM
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I would like to hear from an authority on the stunty deal. (No offense Indigo/Spazz.) However, Stunty is a racial charatceristic that is applied in two areas...dodging and injuries. If a player does not have stunty, how can you assume that half of it still applies?
Consider, Deeproot as an example...Take Root is a racial Characteristic that applies to Treemen that does not apply to him...I think that sets a precedent that certain members of a given race can lose characteristics of their race.
---
IMO This sort-of sets up an interesting distinction for how secret weapons can be used in Tournament Play. IF Star Players are allowed, then that explains how Secret Weapons are used. However, in those tourneys where Secret Weapons are used as upgrades to a normal Gobbo. (By paying for the Gobblin and the Weapon seprately.) The Star Player Secret Weapon appears to lose his stunty...meanwhile the Gobbo SW upgrade is a normal goblin (Including Stunty) that is using a secret weapon.
See what I am saying? -Rob
Mordredd - Feb 08, 2005 - 10:22 AM
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I think now that the +1 to injury is part of stunty, rather than some separate special rule for Gobbos/'flings etc, the +1 to injury only applies if the player has stunty listed as one of his skills.
If you want to keep the +1 to injure on secret weapon players but prevent them using the ignore-tackle-zones-when-dodging part of stunty then the wording needs to be changed and stunty needs to be added to those players.
Spazzfist - Feb 08, 2005 - 10:32 AM
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Indigo wrote:
lol point taken, but having the ability to light the bomb then move it to where you really need it would be VERY handy
I could see how that would be useful...... Hmmm..... I think that I'd better leave this one to the "higher powers".
As for secret weapons, Q'ermitt does allow them!
Spazz
KarlLagerbottom - Feb 08, 2005 - 10:55 AM
Post subject:
Spazz-
What is the ruling for your tourney as far as the Stunty skill is concerned? Will the SW Gobbos have the same profile as the star player Gobs, or do they have Stunty like a normal Gobbo?
-Rob
Spazzfist - Feb 08, 2005 - 12:00 PM
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Like I said to Indigo above, I read it before that the secret weapon is too cumbersome to allow them to slip through the legs of other players like a regular stunty, but given that they are still gobbos, they will still take the +1 injury roll.
Spazz
KarlLagerbottom - Feb 08, 2005 - 02:19 PM
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Spazz-
That's awful FLUFFY of you. 
It might also be hypothesized that only the sturdiest of Gobbos can mount a pogo stick, wield a chainsaw, or carry a bag of bombs. And the Ball & Chain...well I think the Fungus Brew explains what???s going on there.
But it is your Tourney...and the rules are the rules.
King Fling & Royal Pain ??? RobO
EDIT: Looking again at the chainsaw rules states that if a player with a chainsaw falls over for any reason he adds +3 to the injury roll against. Does that mean that a Goblin with a chainsaw adds +4 to the roll? Given that the only player in LRB 4 that can carry a chainsaw is a Goblin...I'd say that +3 is the modifier. However, this also lends itself to the argument that these players should not be stunty...otherwise might it not include a comment regarding stunty players and chainsaws?
Doubleskulls - Feb 08, 2005 - 03:58 PM
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None of the Goblin SW stars have stunty. So stunty doesn't apply and no +1 to injury. Under 3rd ed the +1 was listed under gobbo teams so did apply, this is no longer the case.
Karl - Chainsaws effect Av, not injury, and is cumulative with Claw or MB.
I'd say you can carry a lit bomb, because there is a sentence "If a
player holding a lit bomb falls over for any reason then the bomb will scatter one square and then explode as described below". How else could you fall over since you can't move if you must throw the bomb?
Accurate does count for throwing the bomb.
Bevan - Feb 08, 2005 - 06:27 PM
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Doubleskulls wrote:
I'd say you can carry a lit bomb, because there is a sentence "If a player holding a lit bomb falls over for any reason then the bomb will scatter one square and then explode as described below". How else could you fall over since you can't move if you must throw the bomb?
It is possible this sentence is left over from the period when the opposing coach could whip out a card (or wizard) in the middle of a players action, causing them to be knocked over without even moving. I don't have an old enough rule book handy to see if this sentence has always been there.
The current rules says "A coach may choose to have a Bombardier throw a bomb instead of taking any other action. The bombardier is not allowed to move when he throws a bonb because he needs to stand still in order to light the fuse."
It has been argued that he cannot move while lighting the fuse but could move (with the bomb) in a later turn. However, the "bomb-throwing" action appears to be an action that is different from all other actions and is definitely not an action that includes movement.
So I would argue that
(a) this action is not complete until the bomb explodes, and
(b) the player cannot move during a "bomb throwing action".
If you over-rule (a) then option (b) might allow a bomber to use a "bomb" action to light a fuse, use a move action the next turn, then use a "bomb-throwing action, without moving, on the following turn.
It would be interesting to see what happens to the bomber if he stands around for several turns, possibly moving on some turns, while holding a fizzing bomb. Possibly he should use the interceptor's D4+ roll at the start of each turn to see if it has gone off yet. 
Doubleskulls - Feb 08, 2005 - 07:22 PM
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You know what, I think I agree. It is a hangover from the cards or old style spells. IMO the intent of the rules is that you must throw that turn.
The wording however is debatable - "On a roll of 2 to 6 he gets the fuse to light and may throw the bomb." etc.
It would be nice if someone went throught the whole LRB and indicated all uses of the word "may" and ensure that they consistently mean "something can be done, but isn't mandatory" rather than indicating that the criteria have been fulfilled to do something.
Lets face it technical authors know this and write in an appropriate style, GW don't.
So you can pretty much house rule/clarify/interpret this one how you want.
Spazzfist - Feb 08, 2005 - 08:38 PM
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Also,
Can a wizard not use a spell to interrupt a player's movement? Thereby knocking a player downafter the fuse is lit?
Spazzfist - Feb 08, 2005 - 08:41 PM
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@Rob - for clarification I will not allow the bomber to light the fuse and then throw it in later turns, I will however relent and say that the +1 to injury is not taken due to the fact that there is a lack of the "stunty" trait on the player's profile.
Spazz
Doubleskulls - Feb 08, 2005 - 11:10 PM
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Wizards must cast their spells at the start of the turn. This didn't use to be the case - as Bevan pointed out - and I'd forgotten.
Indigo - Feb 09, 2005 - 04:24 AM
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Just for reference, I wasn't considering that the gobbo secret weapon stars would have the benefits of stunty without the drawbacks - they lose both the +1 and the dodge bonus IMO.
Not that I'd be dodging with Bomba, Nobbla & Fungus though
Re-reading the rules now I think that you ARE allowed to hold onto a lit bomb but as has been mentioned before to throw it you cannot move. I don't think the rule for falling over/exploding is at all related to the cards as the rule would have been around before the cards were added in the Death Zone expansion.
KarlLagerbottom - Feb 09, 2005 - 10:28 AM
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Imagine a Stunty Gobbo with a chainsaw dodging through the cage, and then ripping up the ball carrier. 
3+, 3+, dead Orc Blitzer. 
I LIKES IT!!!!
-Rob
Xeterog - Feb 09, 2005 - 02:10 PM
Post subject:
Quote:
I don't think the rule for falling over/exploding is at all related to the cards as the rule would have been around before the cards were added in the Death Zone expansion.
but not before wizards, and you used to be able to use them at anytime
Darkson - Feb 09, 2005 - 03:38 PM
Post subject:
Indigo wrote:
I don't think the rule for falling over/exploding is at all related to the cards as the rule would have been around before the cards were added in the Death Zone expansion.
Actually, the Bomb rules were introduced in Deathzone (p.7) so Bevan is probably correct.
For the record, I agree that (yet again) the rulebook is badly worded, but I'd rule that you cannot hold the bomb, and if you don't trow it, then it explodes in your square.
Indigo - Feb 10, 2005 - 02:46 AM
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How does the bomb affect players that are already on the floor? Automatic armour/injury rolls?
Bevan - Feb 10, 2005 - 03:01 AM
Post subject:
Indigo wrote:
How does the bomb affect players that are already on the floor? Automatic armour/injury rolls?
The last sentence of the Bomb rules says -
"Make Armour and Injury rolls for any players knocked over by the blast as normal."
You could say that this was just badly worded but it suggests that if players are not knocked over (because they are already on the ground) then they are not affected - because they have kept their heads down when it went off. 
This is consistent with the 2003 Q&A which said that fireballs do not affect prone or stunned players.
Darkson - Feb 10, 2005 - 02:28 PM
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Yeah, we house-ruled that as well. Prone/Stunned players are hit with the same chance as anyone else.
snew - Feb 10, 2005 - 05:38 PM
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That's silly. Only falling down results in an AV/INJ roll. It's not the blast that hurts them, it's hitting the ground that does. The only places this is not the case are clearly spelled out. Chainsaw and fouling come immediately to mind.
Doubleskulls - Feb 10, 2005 - 06:48 PM
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Yeah, because falling on the grass hurts sooo much
Its the bits of metal flying throught the air that are going to kill you, and you will have a lower chance of getting hit while on the ground.
Cervidal - Feb 12, 2005 - 08:40 AM
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I might argue that Stunty being left off from the Gobbo star player is the actual oversight here.
Note that all teams able to take projectile weapons are AG 2 or function as AG 2 in the passing game.
By taking Stunty away from the star player, you're drastically improving his throwing ability.
Doubleskulls - Feb 12, 2005 - 03:23 PM
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Maybe it is an oversight, but we've had 3 rules reviews and it hasn't been fixed.
Hoshi_Komi - Feb 12, 2005 - 07:33 PM
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but fireballs don't work on prone players