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General - Bad form?

daloonieshaman - Jan 27, 2008 - 10:48 PM
Post subject: Bad form?

Is it bad form if you have control of the ball and there is NO way for the other team to stop you from scoring to continue to batter his players (you have already technically won)

Barrel05 - Jan 27, 2008 - 11:39 PM
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Hell no its a great way to increase your casualty count

Doubleskulls - Jan 28, 2008 - 03:50 AM
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There are two things that are related here. I'll call them clock management & stalling. Clock management is where, by controlling the turn you score in, you control you opponent's ability to respond. Normally this is when you wait till turn 8 before scoring to prevent your opponent from having a 2 turn drive to get one back.

Stalling is very similar, but generally the numbers remaining on the pitch are very uneven and the only reason for delaying the score is because its easier to take down the remaining opposition when they are outnumbered and another kick off means chances for KOs & subs to return to the field.

Many coaches feel these are perfectly valid tactics and should be used when appropriate. Others loath it and there have even been rules suggested to try and stop it happening (normally if you can score you must).

I feel that clock management is a crucial skill in BB. IMO coaches who want to prevent sensible clock management are daft. Dwarves and other slow teams often need good clock management to win games.

Stalling on the other hand I think is only really justified (when not combined with clock management) when you have a genuine concern over the number & quality of opponents returning to the pitch and think this will affect the result of the game.

Basically if you choose not to score because doing so would give your opponent a significant chance of affecting the outcome of the game it is fine IMO. However if doing so won't give your opponent that chance you should. At the end of the day this is a silly game of toy soldiers and we all play for fun. Grinding your opponent's nose into the ground when you are 3-0 up is generally not fun for them and you should give them a chance to enjoy the game more.

Cramy - Jan 28, 2008 - 08:03 AM
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I really don't think that it's bad form. It's boring for both coaches, but as Ian said, that's how slow bashy teams can win games. A skilled-up Wood Elf or Skaven team can usually score in 2 turns fairly easily (and sometimes in 1 turn). Scoring quickly usually means that they'll score right back. A Wood Elf / Skaven coach should expect the slow team to manage the clock. That said, the Wood Elf / Skaven coach should develop his team to help counter slow team clock management ...

And as Ian said, some people get a bit upset when you don't play "nice" with their toy soldiers, for some reason. These people should probably play a different game IMO.

I for one love to play with an Elf team, or Skaven, against bashy teams. Extracting the ball from the bashy team and scoring during their offensive drive is always very satisfying.

tenwit - Jan 28, 2008 - 01:59 PM
Post subject: Re: Bad form?

daloonieshaman wrote:

Is it bad form ... to continue to batter his players (you have already technically won)

Of course not. But it's also not risk-free. If you continue to batter the team when you're 2-2 and 1 square from the EZ and there's noone in front of you, you have to expect to roll triple skulls on some unimportant block, and then have that goblin TTMed onto your ball carrier, causing the ball to bounce onto his prone body (where he landed inside the EZ), thence into the crowd, at which point it'll be thrown diagonally 9 squares where the crowd gets its hands on it again. And knowing my (er.. I mean your) luck, they'll probably throw it straight into the hands of the orc blitzer who's just stood up after being stunned and is deep in your half, 15 squares from the nearest other player, and only 3 squares from your EZ.

Go on, try it. You'll see it happens 3 times out of 4.

Moral of the story: unless you're 4-1 up, expect things to go HORRIBLY wrong when you stall in order to cause casualties. (If you're stalling in order to win, like dwarves do, then you're probably all right.)

Spazzfist - Jan 28, 2008 - 02:12 PM
Post subject: Re: Bad form?

tenwit wrote:

daloonieshaman wrote:

Is it bad form ... to continue to batter his players (you have already technically won)

At the tournament I played in this weekend, I did exactly that, it was 1-1 at the end of the second half, and I was standing with my m ummy (who somehow ended up with the ball) by the endzone. On my turn eight, I scored, only leaving him one turn to score. Which, with high elves is impossible...... or so I thought.

Kick off for his turn is a riot, turns back the clock and then he manages to score in two turns, despite me knocking over the initial ball carrier, and putting three TZs on the ball.... it happens!

Point being - I should have cause more casualties! (not for lack of trying mind you)

Doubleskulls - Jan 28, 2008 - 10:14 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Bad form?

All the elf teams can score in one turn without needing a riot.

Cramy - Jan 29, 2008 - 06:26 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Bad form?

Although the riot helps a lot Wink

Spazzfist - Jan 29, 2008 - 06:48 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Bad form?

Doubleskulls wrote:

All the elf teams can score in one turn without needing a riot.

I know you cannot resist proving me wrong DS Wink

But in this case there was not movement increases or sprint skills to aid him. Nor was there another lion warrior with frenzy to blitz his ball-carrying into the end-zone, or any manner of creative use of the right stuff skill. Very Happy

So without the riot, I maintain, it would have been impossible.

Cramy - Jan 29, 2008 - 10:28 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Bad form?

Actually Spazz, with MA of 8 it is possible. You need to line-up many pushes for it to work, but it is possible. The Specialist Games web site has an article on how to do it. You can do it even with Norse.

I need to refresh my memory, so I'll read it again ... I tried it with my Skaven team in Niagara, but it didn't work as I rolled a both down instead of a push. Dwarfrunner could have tried it against me last weekend, but he didn't (which I'm pretty happy about). Smile

It's not too hard to do with MA9.

Now I wonder, why the "heck" am I showing you how to do this? Wink

http://www.specialist-games.com/bloodbowl/articles.asp

Spazzfist - Jan 29, 2008 - 10:55 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Bad form?

Shot down once again......

Why do I even bother posting! Smile

Clan_Skaven - Jan 29, 2008 - 11:26 AM
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Stalling or clock management is to slow bashy teams what one turn scorers is to to fast teams..... (neither is bad form)

My favourite defence vs stalling is fouling (even better with DP) , surround/issolate one of his players & foul him/her till it is no longer in play, the move on to another & repeat, (just ignore the stall..... (you will find your opponent probably scoring when you have thier star Wardancer, Bull Centaur, or Big Guy, or any other exspensive or high skilled player(s) eating boot, play after play......

Rod

Cramy - Jan 29, 2008 - 12:41 PM
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And keep a player in range of the ball carrier. If you don't, the other coach may bring his whole "bashy" team to counter the fouls. If you can't get out of the foul contest to go challenge the ball carrier, you may end-up on the losing end of the foul war. If you can lure him to join the foul war while you have players in range of the ball carrier, then hurray for you.

But yes, Clan-Skaven has it right. Hit and gang-foul. This has more effect in league play though. In resurrection tournaments, it has less effect as all your players come-back for the next game. In the end of the second half, it has no effect at all except that it brings some form of satisfaction to the fouling coach. Very Happy

Apocrypha - Jan 29, 2008 - 03:24 PM
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Clan-Skaven wrote:

I agree with this here. I have had experience with stallers. Once I fouled and killed my opponent's ogre with a goblin. The last time a dwarf player lost two linemen when he stalled. He won 2 - 0 but he lost 2 lineman and gained a niggling slayer.

Good form or not - the dice can be fickle and you might end up losing more than you gain.

Clan_Skaven - Jan 30, 2008 - 12:43 AM
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Yes causing casualties rock!

Take it from the Casualty champion from the last 2 Death-Bowls!!! (Death-Bowl IV & V)

Rod

Draakus - Jan 30, 2008 - 04:43 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Bad form?

Spazzfist wrote:

Shot down once again......

Why do I even bother posting! Smile

because its fun for people to shoot you down Wink

Spazzfist - Jan 30, 2008 - 06:05 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Bad form?

Draakus wrote:

Spazzfist wrote:

Shot down once again......

Why do I even bother posting! Smile

because its fun for people to shoot you down Wink

Then I would like to pose the following question: Is it bad form to pick on as easy a target as me? Embarassed

daloonieshaman - Jan 30, 2008 - 11:09 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Bad form?

only because it is you, YES!

Axtklinge - Feb 01, 2008 - 10:05 AM
Post subject: Re: Bad form?

daloonieshaman wrote:

Is it bad form if you have control of the ball and there is NO way for the other team to stop you from scoring to continue to batter his players (you have already technically won)

IMO no, it is not.
Its just a way like many others to play the game in some particular moment.

It can however in some circunstances be quite boring, and/or even disapointing to the opponent when he's watching the turns go by, and theres nothing he can do.

Some of the experiences I've seen with similar situations (both with me playing, or just watching) is that the player waiting for the opponent to score tends to gang his players up for casualtys and fouls ("since he cant get to the ball..."), and more often then not it works, and he gets a couple of CAS for his players (must be nuffle playing around...).

Anyway, thats why many players in the league I regularly play particulary avoid that stalling, as it might bring some kind of "bad omen" to the team... Laughing

Cheers
Axt

DarkOrk20 - Feb 02, 2008 - 09:51 AM
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This is something that I have thought about before. I was playing Morpheus during GenCon Bowl this past year. He was playing dwarves and I was playing Orcs. He had given me a good beat down and was stalling for four turns by the end zone. I ended up giving him a lot of crap for bad sportsmanship and eventually he scored.

Afterwords, I thought about it and decided that I was more upset with myself and my considerable lack of players on the field not being able to put on enough pressure to get him to score.

The goal of any game is to win. Having fun is part of that as well. I always expect my opponents to try to win the game. If that means stalling then it should be your job to not let him stall.

Bottomline, my opponent stalled for 4 turns because I was unable to put enough pressure to get him to think it wasn't ok. Then I resorted to a verbal assault to bully, guilt, and manipulate him. I still lost the game and had fun after I got over it. Thanks Morpheus for being a good friend.

daloonieshaman - Feb 02, 2008 - 04:30 PM
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okay say Morpheus pinned your players out and continued to beat the tar out of you even know he virtually had the win

Spazzfist - Feb 02, 2008 - 04:40 PM
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daloonieshaman wrote:

okay say Morpheus pinned your players out and continued to beat the tar out of you even know he virtually had the win

Even that one can be tricky, because I thought I had the win when I stalled until turn eight, but then the riot happened and my opponent had two turns to score for the tie and did. Then DS and Cramy pointed out (quite rightly) that he did not even need the riot, (althought that made it a whole helluva lot easier).

But even still, you could be winning 3-0 and still stalling, and during a tournament this may be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, as the tourneys I attend have the +/- of the TDs as one of the tiebreakers, I would want to do everything in my power to ensure that I was minimizing the number of TDs scored against me, even if that means beating the tar out of his few remaining players whilst I sit on the goal line. Besides which, most tourneys are resurrection style, which means that your players are all going to be fresh and new after that miserable game is over!

Leagues may be using this same system, where TD +/- is worth something, if even only bragging rights. Although you have to consider the long-term effects, which is that the teams do not resurrect as they do in tourneys, but then hey! You are removing the competition!

I hate being on the end of the wrong end of the boot in these situations, but do try to remember that it is part of the game!

CirrustheBlue - Aug 25, 2008 - 02:35 AM
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It kinda stinks when this happens, but a good way to get out of it is to STAY DOWN!!!!! Assuming there's no way you can put up any kind of a fight in response at least. ie. fighting a team with 6 Strength upgraded players and Block/Guard across the entire roster by mid first-season. That's a true story. Very Happy

This basically leaves their options rather closed off otherwise besides either 1. running out the clock, or 2. just scoring that darned TD already! If they decide to drag out the game by fouling you after this fact, then that just shows what kind of player they are. Razz

If you CAN in fact put up any kind of a fight though, by all means, DO IT!! Even if it just gets your guys that much closer to his in order scare him into moving his ballcarrier the last space after 4 turns of standing around like a wad.

- Cirrus

Doubleskulls - Aug 26, 2008 - 06:03 AM
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Spazzfist wrote:

you could be winning 3-0 and still stalling

Stalling when tied - perfectly fair and I'd never have issue with it.
Winning by 1 and stalling, maybe you have a valid reason, but not that often.

Winning by 3 and stalling? That really deserves a kick up the *&)@.

This is a game. A game meant for two people to enjoy. Play competitively and try to win - but this isn't a solo game so don't forget your opponent.