NAF World Headquarters
Rules Questions - New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
machtin - May 04, 2012 - 04:06 AM
Post subject: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
Hi Folks,
the new team "Deamons of Khorne" was created for the latest edition of the BB pc game:
http://bloodbowl-game.com/index.php?rub=news-info&id=300
Are there rumours that this race may also be published or officially confirmed by the rulez comittee for tabletop BB?
Thx in advance
Machtin
Grumbledook - May 04, 2012 - 07:46 AM
Post subject: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
nope
got no idea who is designing the roster in the first place, let alone play testing it
they should have spent the time fixing and adding the missing stuff before making new things up imo
Darkson - May 04, 2012 - 09:25 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
Grumbledook wrote:
they should have spent the time fixing and adding the missing stuff before making new things up imo
qft
bob_bifford - May 06, 2012 - 11:56 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
Its only rubbish cyanide so don't worry about it, They will NOT add Slann but will put a untested team. BRAVO cyanide/Focus.
garthnait - May 07, 2012 - 02:23 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
bob_bifford wrote:
They will NOT add Slann but will put a untested team. BRAVO cyanide/Focus.
That's not Cyanide's fold, its GW's IP that don't let them put Slann in.
zootsuitjeff - May 08, 2012 - 05:25 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
Here's an idea: why don't they give Leap and very long legs to all of the khorne daemons, as well as diving catch, diving tackle, etc...
Axtklinge - May 10, 2012 - 05:47 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
That would be a way to deal with it (Horrors of Tzeentch minis have already been used to that purpose).
Still I suspect we'll be facing nothing of the sorts...
dode74 - Sep 25, 2012 - 02:05 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1665
Darkson - Sep 25, 2012 - 04:29 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
"Today, they are known as the most violent, and the most feared, Blood Bowl players of all time" makes me laugh, as it's one of the most untruthful statements ever to come from Cyanide/Focus. 
dode74 - Sep 25, 2012 - 04:41 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne"
To be fair, once it was decided that it would be Khorne then this was a no-win situation. Either you stay "true" to the fluff and build demons as per WFB, or you add a team which wouldn't be another total bash & cas machine (which I believe is one of the biggest complaints about the game). Go with the former and the team will not be good for the game as it will have to be very powerful; go for the latter and it's not "true" to the fluff (especially for purists). Given thatthe decision to go with Khorne was made first, I think the latter is the lesser evil. Fluff should, imo, always be secondary to gameplay, and it is almost always possible to explain away these matters in a suitable fluffy manner.
GalakStarscraper - Sep 25, 2012 - 05:23 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne&quo
dode74 wrote:
To be fair, once it was decided that it would be Khorne then this was a no-win situation. Either you stay "true" to the fluff and build demons as per WFB, or you add a team which wouldn't be another total bash & cas machine (which I believe is one of the biggest complaints about the game). Go with the former and the team will not be good for the game as it will have to be very powerful; go for the latter and it's not "true" to the fluff (especially for purists). Given thatthe decision to go with Khorne was made first, I think the latter is the lesser evil. Fluff should, imo, always be secondary to gameplay, and it is almost always possible to explain away these matters in a suitable fluffy manner.
Could not agree more or have said it better.
connexion - Sep 25, 2012 - 05:24 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne&quo
dode74 wrote:
Fluff should, imo, always be secondary to gameplay, and it is almost always possible to explain away these matters in a suitable fluffy manner.
I second that motion. 
If one disregards the "Khorne" part of the thing (fluff and player names) and looks only at stats, this seems like a team that can be a bit tricky to play with at first but with interesting potential.
To be honest, I am thinking of changing my Vampire team project (using Dark Eldar minis and Heresy ghouls for Thralls) into a Khorne team. Time will tell. 
Jonny_P - Sep 25, 2012 - 06:00 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne
Bloodthirster should have ST8 and every skill.
Darkson - Sep 25, 2012 - 08:03 PM
Post subject:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
dode74 wrote:
Fluff should, imo, always be secondary to gameplay, and it is almost always possible to explain away these matters in a suitable fluffy manner.
Could not agree more or have said it better.
Couldn't agree less. If we're going to ignore fluff, then we might as well have MA8 AG4 Dwarfs and AV9/10 Elfs as standard.
Not saying fluff should be the be all and end all, but it needs to have some bearing. This isn't a Khorne team. It might be a balanced roster, it migh be fun to play, but it's not Khorne.
nod_hero - Sep 26, 2012 - 12:24 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne&quo
dode74 wrote:
Hey Dode that pic has an error. Bloodthirster is S with GAP on a double, you have them down as G.
dode74 - Sep 26, 2012 - 02:33 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: New Team "Deamons of Khorne
@ nod hero
Good call - corrected it and removed link to the wrong one.
@ Darkson
First, your argument is a slippery slope fallacy - if we're going to let people off a few parking tickets then we might as well let them get away with murder, right?
Second, what would you have done? Given that you are told "the next team will be Khorne, please design it" would you:
1. Produce a balanced roster which is fun to play and at the very least has a nod to Khorne in its design.
2. Produce a faithfully fluffy roster which is going to be a tier 1 team at the very least.
3. Tell them to bugger off, leaving them two options:
a. Have someone less experienced at team design than you do it. or
b. Have Cyanide design it and come up with something along these lines:
Code:
0-16 Pit Fighter Cultists 6 3 3 6 A/GSP Mighty Blow, Sure Hands 60k
0-1 Herald 7 6 2 9 GS/AP Animosity, Horns, Claws, 160k
Strip Ball, Dist Pres,
Sure Feet, Sprint
0-6 Bloodletter 6 3 2 7 GSP/A Block, Tackle, Horns 70k
0-1 Bloodthirster 4 7 1 8 S/GAP Animosity, Block, Horns, 140k
Foul App, Regen, Dist P,
Mighty Blow, Thick Skull
Manuel - Sep 26, 2012 - 05:55 AM
Post subject:
What's supposed to be these cyanide-roster? The starting point when developing the final roster?
dode74 - Sep 26, 2012 - 06:26 AM
Post subject:
It's an example of what Cyanide could have come up with unless Galak was involved.
Darkson - Sep 26, 2012 - 07:01 AM
Post subject:
@dode - #1, but other than the names, that's not what this roster is.
I'm not saying it would be easy, but there must having been better options than this, which is a roster (which I'd struggle to call Chaotic at all) with a "Khorne" sticker put on it.
dode74 - Sep 26, 2012 - 07:15 AM
Post subject:
Try playing them and tell me it's not "chaotic" 
And I disagree with you about many of the the fluff aspects. Sure, Bloodletters are S5 and T3 in WFB and some think that ST3 with AV7/regen is a bit low. Well, elves are T3 in WFB, and they are AV7 without regen in BB. And when all is said and done, when it comes to straight stats then so what? The player is not all about stats: skills make a massive difference to the basics in BB, more so that in WFB I would argue.
Out of the box the 6 lesser daemons are the best blitzers in the game (all get 2d blocks with only 1/36 odds of failure against any ST3 player), and the Bloodthirster is the best Big Guy in the game by quite a way. We're talking about a "race" which charges down the enemy and overcomes them, creating chaos while it does so, but is fairly fragile if they get bogged down toe-to-toe. Well, that's what this team does.
If you think there is a better option then feel free to come up with something new and interesting which isn't simply a replication of another team (a suggestion of mass negatrait daemons, for example, would be very similar to vampires imo).
Darkson - Sep 26, 2012 - 07:27 AM
Post subject:
I can see it's not Chaotic (no mutation access), just as I can see it's not Khornate.
And WTF is pass access on the pitfighters? Yeah, very fluffy.
dode74 - Sep 26, 2012 - 07:35 AM
Post subject:
A bit like Chaos Marauders then?
And they most certainly chaotic on the pitch.
Darkson - Sep 26, 2012 - 07:44 AM
Post subject:
Yeah, so's the freaking Norse team.
Marauders was a mistake to, one that had to be there so the JJ could make his precious Chaos All-Stars. Two wrongs don't make a right.
dode74 - Sep 26, 2012 - 08:28 AM
Post subject:
These are more so, and a bit backwards to Norse.
Wrong in your opinion, perhaps. Or perhaps the ability to take a leader RR was considered...
Grumbledook - Sep 26, 2012 - 08:40 AM
Post subject:
I don't care about the fluff as I don't care about warhammer
I'm solely interested in the how the team plays and fits in with the others. I think doing it behind closed doors was an error.
I look forward to seeing all the feedback that comes from people using the team.
GalakStarscraper - Sep 26, 2012 - 09:57 AM
Post subject:
dode74 wrote:
Try playing them and tell me it's not "chaotic"
And I disagree with you about many of the the fluff aspects. Sure, Bloodletters are S5 and T3 in WFB and some think that ST3 with AV7/regen is a bit low. Well, elves are T3 in WFB, and they are AV7
without regen in BB. And when all is said and done, when it comes to straight stats then so what? The player is not all about stats: skills make a massive difference to the basics in BB, more so that in WFB I would argue.
Out of the box the 6 lesser daemons are the best blitzers in the game (all get 2d blocks with only 1/36 odds of failure against any ST3 player), and the Bloodthirster is the best Big Guy in the game by quite a way. We're talking about a "race" which charges down the enemy and overcomes them, creating chaos while it does so, but is fairly fragile if they get bogged down toe-to-toe. Well, that's what this team does.
Tom
Cabezacubo - Sep 30, 2012 - 08:12 AM
Post subject:
Here another coach that don´t like the roster either.
I´m glad it is not a broken one, but I still don´t like it at all. Bloodletters and Heralds are too weak, Pitfighters with pass skills and blodletters with Agility skills (oh, sure very "Khorney").
The great demon has wings, why not "Jump up"?
With some tweaks it could have been a more Khorney team without making it too broken or simply a killing machine.
Pitfighters with Dirty player, Bloodeters with Fue4-Agi2... and so one.
I suposse every one of us is a "potential designer" and have his own Khorne team, but for what I´m reading, a lot of us are not very amused with that.
dode74 - Sep 30, 2012 - 03:21 PM
Post subject:
Quote:
blodletters with Agility skills
This is a section of fluff from the Daemons of Chaos army book:
"Left to their own devices, Bloodletters sprint and bound from one enemy to the next, hacking the foe apart with their murderous Hellblades before springing away in search of new lifebood to spill."
Geggster - Sep 30, 2012 - 05:32 PM
Post subject:
Grumbledook wrote:
I think doing it behind closed doors was an error.
It might not be popular but there was clearly no way of sorting this roster out in the wider community given it being needed for a product launch (and no BBRC to agree it either, come to that).
An experienced group seems the best we could have hoped for - and that's what we got.
Dode's thoughts there about the blitz being very reliable, and the frenzy all over the shop causing blocking chaos, all seems pretty sensible and thematic.
I look forward to giving them a go sometime (or play against them). Viva la difference.
NAF approval is a different kettle of fish. I see on one thread, a couple of Spanish guys have already approved them for their tourney - and elsewhere people are saying they will never allow them (which seems a little hasty to me, but there you go).
Interesting times.
Sebco - Oct 01, 2012 - 01:57 PM
Post subject:
Geggster wrote:
Interesting times.
Interesting but complicated!
We also have in France some organizers who yet asked us if they could write their tournament ruleset saying LRB 6 + 3 added rosters (= chaos pact + slanns + underworld) + khorne daemons roster.
I don't know if NAF will soon validate Khorne roster. But I hope we will authorize NAF tournaments to accept Khorne roster if they want to. If Khorne Daemons roster isn't validated by NAF, games played with this roster won't count towards NAF rankings but, at least, we won't forbid coaches testing this new roster. If it would have been broken, it would have been different. But now I can't see how it could really unbalance our tournaments.
Geggster - Oct 02, 2012 - 03:45 AM
Post subject:
Perhaps a way forward might be to allow Tournament Organisers to list them as a 25th team, if they want, and retain NAF approval. But equally allow Tournament Organisers the ability to say no to Khorne and stick with 24 teams.
Not saying that that is the answer - just one potential solution. I don't think people should expect an immediate solution either. This roster has been public for 10 days so far and has gone through a very different creation process than any other rule/roster change before. There are wider implications to consider, a period of wider playtesting (surely?) and certainly website logistics too.
Sebco - Oct 02, 2012 - 10:32 AM
Post subject:
Geggster wrote:
Perhaps a way forward might be to allow Tournament Organisers to list them as a 25th team, if they want, and retain NAF approval. But equally allow Tournament Organisers the ability to say no to Khorne and stick with 24 teams.
This sounds good to me.
You're right, we're not in a hurry. But everybody speaks about Khorne roster at the moment and that's why this question is already burning.
Tiamo69 - Oct 03, 2012 - 04:13 PM
Post subject: Khorne Roster
Salut Sebco!
well, as my tournament, The Brewerz Bowl II starts on the 24th of November & does have a Chaos theme; i'm very interested as to whether or not this Roster will be NAF sanctioned...
@Geggster - i'll be dropping Pippy (& Lycos) a line about this tomorrow...
Brewerz Bowl is open to all 21 Races + the 3 addition Races (Slann, Underworld & Chaos Pact) and i'm debating whether or not to allow this new roster.
Lucifer/Podfrey has already asked me directly & that's what started me thinking about it...
I can definitely see Khorne being eligible for Brewerz Bowl III in 2013; not sure whether or not i'll be jumping straight in with Brewerz II...
As a fan a Chaos Pact, i can see Khorne being even madder to play due to all those double blocks burning 70K rerolls up by turns 2-3 and Coaches left with a choice between safety moves Or suicidal turn over' inducing blocks...
won't be as bad in tournaments where you start with 6 Skills but could be hysterically frustrating in those which award a new skill after each round...
& that's without thinking about holding a line of defence with players frenzying out of position...
NAF steer / guidance would be useful...
Grumbledook - Oct 03, 2012 - 08:05 PM
Post subject: RE: Khorne Roster
this thread seems to have very little to do with blood bowl rules ;]
I would point people to the NAF sanctioning thread which would be in the comments section for questions about sanctioning, there is also yet another one in the announcements
bit daft having the same thing all over the place!
though as I've stated elsewhere (and perhaps here already) it is far too early to stick the team in for NAF approval due the very limited play testing
Tiamo69 - Oct 04, 2012 - 04:04 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Khorne Roster
Grumbledook wrote:
this thread seems to have very little to do with blood bowl rules ;]
I would point people to the NAF sanctioning thread which would be in the comments section for questions about sanctioning, there is also yet another one in the announcements
bit daft having the same thing all over the place!
though as I've stated elsewhere (and perhaps here already) it is far too early to stick the team in for NAF approval due the very limited play testing
@Grumbledook that actually echoes my feelings...
I'm 99% convinced that Khorne Roster won't be eligible for the 2012 Brewerz Bowl but has strong potential to be included in the 2013.
