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noodle1978uk - Jun 19, 2003 - 05:57 AM
Post subject: Ideas for next year's Student Nationals

I am running a Blood Bowl tournament - for the Student Nationals in April 2004. I have noticed that (for obvious reasons) the WPS rules don't actually include any points for painting etc in the Blood Bowl rules. May I ask why? Is it because Blood Bowl is more like football etc and should be won by the guy who "wins" the most - unlike WHFB (although obviously winning is still a big part of it).

My idea for a scoring system was as follows

5 games:

Win: 50 points
Draw: 25 Points
Lose: 10 Points
TF: +3 pts
TA: -3 pts
CF: +1 pt
CA: -1 pt

(Field goals will be 2 points if used)

So about 56 points for a good win - the best teams should approach 300 points.

I was then going to have 50 points on painting:

Painted (3 colours): UP TO 10 points (if 80% have three colours then 8 etc)
Based: UP TO 10 Points
Detailed: UP TO 10 points
Team Background: 0/10 points (I'm not grading them!)
WYSIWYG: 0/5 points
WOW!: 5 points.

I also intend to have a "themed" competition. Games 1, 3 and 4 will be normal Blood Bowl games. But the tournament is a tour of Albion (with a booklet and everything). The 2nd game will be played using the junglebowl trees as it will be played in the Lustrian "bit" of Albion.

The final game will be played on the great plain of Albion - where there are standing stones built by the druids.... All the better for kicking field goals (the last game will use kicking)

Teams will be starting - with 1,100,000 to spend. One skill may be taken after each game for ONE player. No player can have more than ONE skill or advance. Players will ROLL to see if they get a trait/increase etc after each game...

Comments? I really like the idea of something a little different - but not too random, for next year's nationals...

Doubleskulls - Jun 19, 2003 - 06:28 AM
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I'd strongly recommend that the best scoring system is based more on tie breaks than a single score - so result 1st, then net TDs, then total TDs, then net cas, then total cas. If you want make Painting/Sportsmanship the 2nd & 3rd tie breaks.

For result scoring I think 5 pts for win, 3 for a draw, 2 for loss by 1TD and 1 for losing by 2 or more is a good system. It gives a player a lot of incentive to go for the TDs even if they are 2-0 down.

Personnally I wouldn't bother having special rules for some of the games it just makes the whole thing more complex than it needs to be. If you want to theme it make the rules apply to all the games.

Don't allow rolling for skills - then some lucky b*gger gets +ST giving him an unfair advantage in the 2nd game. At least say no stat increases - but I'd say just normal skills. If you want to allow traits/doubles then Richard Would's idea for the National Wargaming Convention is a good one

3rd game choose one of
1) 2nd normal skill for a player
2) Trait or "double" skill for a player
3) 2 normal skills on 2 players.

I take it that you are not allowing star players, but are allowing wizards (at 150k) and apoths.

Indigo - Jun 19, 2003 - 06:32 AM
Post subject: Re: Ideas for next year's Student Nationals

noodle1978uk wrote:

It's really down to organisers preference - some people prefer "pure" gaming, and don't think painting should figure at all. Others think painting is as much a part of the joy of BB as playing so factor it in to the tournament scores. While I think it is very important, I personally don't really want it affecting tournament scores. I do want good paint jobs recognised though, so I still have a category for Best Painted Team.

noodle1978uk wrote:

My idea for a scoring system was as follows

5 games:

Win: 50 points
Draw: 25 Points
Lose: 10 Points
TF: +3 pts
TA: -3 pts
CF: +1 pt
CA: -1 pt

(Field goals will be 2 points if used)

So about 56 points for a good win - the best teams should approach 300 points.

I really don't like the idea of field goals, nor any of the kicking rules found in the Annual. It wouldn't put me off attending the tourney but I don't think they have much of a place in BB.

As for the scoring system, off the top of my head it looks fine.

noodle1978uk wrote:

I was then going to have 50 points on painting:
Painted (3 colours): UP TO 10 points (if 80% have three colours then 8 etc)
Based: UP TO 10 Points
Detailed: UP TO 10 points
Team Background: 0/10 points (I'm not grading them!)
WYSIWYG: 0/5 points
WOW!: 5 points.

Who are you going to have doing the judging? IMO the scales are a bit too broad - how do you differentiate between an 8 and a 7 for example? I think all teams MUST be painted 3 colours to get in, then better painted teams get more points. I thought the system at the BB was good:

three colours = 1 point
based = 1 point
detailed = 1 point

This means a total of three points are available for painting - this would need tweaking to fit into your scoring system. I don't think bases can be awarded from 1 to 10, as after static grass and flock I don't see what else can be done!

noodle1978uk wrote:

I also intend to have a "themed" competition. Games 1, 3 and 4 will be normal Blood Bowl games. But the tournament is a tour of Albion (with a booklet and everything). The 2nd game will be played using the junglebowl trees as it will be played in the Lustrian "bit" of Albion.

The final game will be played on the great plain of Albion - where there are standing stones built by the druids.... All the better for kicking field goals (the last game will use kicking)

Aside from the kicking part, the themed games sound interesting. I'd be careful though - I'm not sure if you will get NAF sanctioning if the BB game is altered too much from the LRB, although I can't answer that for you.

noodle1978uk wrote:

Teams will be starting - with 1,100,000 to spend. One skill may be taken after each game for ONE player. No player can have more than ONE skill or advance. Players will ROLL to see if they get a trait/increase etc after each game...

Not too sure about the rolling for a trait - what if one team gets a ST increase or two after a few games? They might then be too powerful. Still it is worth testing these variations in actual tournaments to see how they perform.

All in all I think you've got some really interesting ideas, and just because I don't agree with them all doesn't invalidate them in any way. Where might this championship be held?

noodle1978uk - Jun 19, 2003 - 06:47 AM
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The championship will be held in Sheffield, in April, as part of the Student National Wargames and Roleplaying championships (400 people expected)...

I agree about traits - to obviate lucky people I will probably say - "after game 3 you can have a trait"...

As far as painting and basing goes - I meant people will get the full 10 points for basing if all models are based, but only 8 if 80% are based etc, thats all! Very Happy

I will (hopefully) be getting some very good painters (winners of at least 2 WHFB best painted army awards) to judge the painting. And me Very Happy

RE: Junglebowl and Kicking.

First the Jungle - we've played it and it doesn't do very much. Neither does kicking in actual fact, but I wanted something a bit different...

These two games might provide a bit of interest thats all. If both teams elect not to kick well..... Very Happy

We do use kicking at present in our league, though it hasn't done a grwat deal...

As for NAF sanctioning, I wasn't really thinking about that - if I wanted it NAF sanctioned would I have to take out the interesting bits Sad

Indigo - Jun 19, 2003 - 07:25 AM
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noodle1978uk wrote:

As for NAF sanctioning, I wasn't really thinking about that - if I wanted it NAF sanctioned would I have to take out the interesting bits Sad

Dunno. I know experimental teams aren't allowed.

It sounds interesting so definitely pencil me in.

Doubleskulls - Jun 19, 2003 - 07:38 AM
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BTW WPS does include Painting and Sportsmanship in the final score - in fact the 1st & 2nd places were determined by it.

The reason WPS CC uses a single score is because it needs to integrate results across several systems - so they all score on the 0-32 point scale. When you've got 1 system you don't need to be so restricted.

noodle1978uk - Jun 20, 2003 - 03:34 AM
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Well - its not until April next year and its part of the Student Nationasl team event anyway - so I've got plenty of time Very Happy

Indigo - Jun 20, 2003 - 03:56 AM
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we could enter a NAF team Smile

Slinky78 - Jul 10, 2003 - 04:10 PM
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Can we have alumni teams?

Indigo - Jul 11, 2003 - 01:25 AM
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Yes, based on the thread over at TBB. I think the condition is you have to be a student or a graduate. We could make a NAF Graduate team, since it's unlikely we'll get enough people from any one university who will be able to enter as a team.

The trouble then is what happens when we win - no uni to host it!

Indigo - Jul 11, 2003 - 01:26 AM
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noodle - do you know what Unis are planning on entering a team? with luck, leicester will be and I can join theirs.

noodle1978uk - Jul 11, 2003 - 03:15 AM
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Well, Leicester didn't send anyone to DUNDEE last year - but Sheffield's not so far. Basically the nationals are a team event. See:

http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/Student_Nationals

I think....

Information will be going to unis in September.

Indigo - Jul 11, 2003 - 03:25 AM
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Checked this link and found the email address for the leicester gamesoc president, so I've asking if he needs a graduate vet for his team Wink

Chris - Aug 19, 2003 - 07:41 AM
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Well, I'd go as a graduate, if only because an Ex goes there to roleplay, and the chance to grin at someone who hates my guts with zenophobic passion could provoke a real blood bowl match Smile

Indigo - Aug 19, 2003 - 08:21 AM
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I got in touch with the Leicester gamessoc president and he confirmed that it's fine for me to join their team as a graduate (will take my "Class of 2000" t-shirt to prove it Wink

)

I reckon I'd be the only BB player for the Leicester team though

Chris - Aug 19, 2003 - 01:10 PM
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Incidentally, I'd want it to be NAF sanctioned, and while I'm fine with trees and stones, the Kick rules are horrible.

noodle1978uk - Aug 20, 2003 - 04:12 AM
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Well I think we'll be lucky to get it NAF sanctioned - as its NOT an open event (uni team event), but we'll see...

As for kicking rules - well no-one in our league can kick very well and we've been using it for ages... So I doubt it will have much effect even if I put it in...

More importantly there is the 24 hour Blood Bowl event for me to concentrate on in October - now that IS open....

AnthonyTBBF - Aug 20, 2003 - 05:32 AM
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Invitationals can't be sanctioned by the NAF.

noodle1978uk - Aug 21, 2003 - 02:53 AM
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That's what I thought - How about sanctioning Sheffield uni's OPEN 24 hour charity event in October Very Happy

More details to follow - mind you I doubt many people will come (apart from about 20 "local" people Very Happy

) as its run ALL NIGHT

I suppose the Nationals count as an invitational because University teams are invited. Fair enough.

Indigo - Aug 21, 2003 - 03:03 AM
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might be tempted to the Open but really can't comfirm at this point.

Will a set number of games be played or just as many as possible?

noodle1978uk - Aug 21, 2003 - 06:30 AM
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Full rules will be posted on the Website next month...

It will be a play-off system with a finals round.... Simple really... Best X games go forward so if you lose, you're not out of it. There will be some limited team progression too

Indigo - Aug 21, 2003 - 06:44 AM
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when does it happen again?

Chris - Aug 27, 2003 - 06:35 AM
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A summery of what I think.

Special rules.

Kicking.
Personnaly I hate the kicking rules, and wouldn't be too keen on coming if they were in.

Varient pitches.
Hmm, I quite like the idea, but how about doing it this way -
After round 1 (so from round too onward) the bottom 1 or 2 tables are these varient pitches. This represents the poorer grounds being used to make up the numbers, the top pitches are the FA style best of the best, and the lower ones the wellig united/chelski sandpit fields. You can even make these for a touch of specialness. Does make it feel more like Albion, especially since we lost Wembly Smile

Skill progression.
Rolling is great, if you roll well. Makes it a very unbalenced playing field towards the end for teams potnetially.
As had been said, what Richard did was after the third game players had a choice. Get a trait for any one player, get a second skill for any player that had been given one after the previous two rounds, or take two skills for two players.
No one got a trait, and only 1 out of 6 went for a model with two skills. Everyone else went for 2 skills on two players. I think offering this is fine, but you may be surprised how many spurn the trait or second skill.

Scoring.
What are you trying to achieve here? Do all the games in the nationals have to use a similar system, or have you simply decided on this? It's a bit strange, plus it also rewards playing a weak team. Your wood elves play a halfling side, much in the way of points. Yet another team with a different set of teams to play might never get the chance to play the halflings, play better overall, beat the Wood Elves, but lose because a weaker team got to play an easy side.Since it is in Albion, why not use the FA system, with twaeks for bloodbowl?
3 points ofr a win.
1 for a draw.
0 for a loss.
A win is a win is a win after all.
Then TD difference (For/Against), then Cas difference (For/Against), then total TD's then total Cas.
The system basically ensures whoever wins the most games wins overall.

Painting.
I'm not a fan of this being part of a scoring system, because a rich player can pay for a pro job to be done on his models, and then what are you actually judging here? Who bought the best paint job?
A seperate award open to those who painted their own team is better here, plus it rewards those who play for fun and to paint the models, as a good paint with crap tactics still walks away with something.

NAF santioning.
Surely you would be ale to get it if no-one applied to come who wasn't a university person? think most of the tournament going players are graduates or students, some of course aren't, but would they want to go to a place filled with students? Alternatively we could just lie and say they had a degree in gameology.

Prizes.
Get it NAF sanctioned and get some prizes from fanatic, do any of the other systems give out prizes? You would be head and shoulders above the rest!

Indigo - Aug 27, 2003 - 06:40 AM
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what about an entry from people who are graduates of "the university of life"? could be a way of getting non grads in Smile

noodle1978uk - Aug 27, 2003 - 07:52 AM
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OK I have a few points:

1) The 24 hour (which is most definitely open and has a very small prize because its for CHARITY) will PROBABLY be held on 25/26th October... Details next month (Spiky is the W/e before)

2) Student Nationals

a) Kicking - I was only going to use it for the last game for a bit of variety....

b) Points - Have changed them somewhat....

c) Painting. It WILL be in the points. Its the student Nationals. I will eat my hat if someone comes along who has paid someone to paint their miniatures....

d) NAF sanctioning. Not sure it is relevant. The Student Nationals are primarily a team event, with universities submitting team entries. Unless you get on a team you don't get in the event... I was advertising the Nationals everywhere to all students..... Well actually if you were a member of a uni society and graduated years ago you still get to go - I won the BB tournie last year and graduated in 2000. I *WAS* the chair of the wargames society though... Wink

e) Prizes - being as its the Nationals a trophy is generally all you get... Extra money goes to charity and the other games don't get prizes....

However if this event goes well I'll be looking to host a Sheffield tournament every year - the ABBL needs one Very Happy

And there is the 24 hour Bloodbowl to come in October.

Hangus - Aug 27, 2003 - 11:21 AM
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24hours of Bloodbowl Shocked

heaven

If the Uni of Glamorgan put a team in I might be there but three years there i never met another wargammer never mind a bloodbowler

noodle1978uk - Aug 27, 2003 - 11:58 AM
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The 24 hour is manic
I don't expect many naffers along - I mean how would you get accom, but I'll advertise it anyway - and it *is* for charity...

Darkson - Aug 27, 2003 - 12:08 PM
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Now, you see, thing like this make me wish I'd gone to uni rather than gettting a job Sad

Hangus - Aug 27, 2003 - 12:12 PM
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did'nt miss much.

apart from meeting the missus there. Smile

oh and got me my job
Very Happy

hey and 15 grand in dept and still paying it off three years later Sad

and probably for the rest of my life Crying or Very sad

Chris - Aug 28, 2003 - 04:09 AM
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noodle1978uk wrote:

OK I have a few points:
a) Kicking - I was only going to use it for the last game for a bit of variety....

b) Points - Have changed them somewhat....

c) Painting. It WILL be in the points. Its the student Nationals. I will eat my hat if someone comes along who has paid someone to paint their miniatures....

d) NAF sanctioning. Not sure it is relevant. The Student Nationals are primarily a team event, with universities submitting team entries. Unless you get on a team you don't get in the event... I was advertising the Nationals everywhere to all students..... Well actually if you were a member of a uni society and graduated years ago you still get to go - I won the BB tournie last year and graduated in 2000. I *WAS* the chair of the wargames society though... Wink

a) Fairy snuff, what teams does it favour? High Ag ones?
b) What to.
c) If any NAF people turn up, be prepared to scoff said headpiece, and the NAF graduates seem to have a fair amount of well painted pro teams Smile

d) It's always a laugh, and pushs peoples rankings up (or down). As for teams, you could say OU and who would know? Smile

Actually if Lancaster enters a team they should lie through their teeth and say whoever is part of their teams.

noodle1978uk - Aug 28, 2003 - 06:02 AM
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Don't forget the winner of the overall comp has to host it - thats part of the fun - as is the immense rivalry between Universities....

Regarding a) Kicking is nigh on impossible for starting teams now - Ag to kick but ST for distance - actually pretty good but you rarely see field goals in our league and we use them all the time - I want it in one game of the Nats because I want to shake things up - so that the winner is truly versatile Very Happy

b) Still a 60 point system but capped - something like 30 for a game, +10/-10 for win /loss +TD difference * 3 + casualty difference UP TO MAX OF 10

So a draw would be 30/30 while a sound thrashing would be 50/10

c) We'll have to see if any Naffers turn up in teams...

d) I suppose. But since I'm organising the event I would know Very Happy

And I guarantee a mass entry of non-uni people would probably start some kind of war...

Having said that it might be an opportunity for Uni graduates to contact their old societies Wink

"Hello can I play BB for you at the student Nats?"

"Are you any good?"

"I'm a member of the NAF"

"Er. OK - So are you any good?"

"Do you want to win?"

"NOOOO That would mean hosting it - we just want to beat Bangor...."

Etc..

Chris - Aug 28, 2003 - 10:21 AM
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noodle1978uk wrote:

Don't forget the winner of the overall comp has to host it - thats part of the fun - as is the immense rivalry between Universities....

So whoever wins the bloodbowl competition has to host it next year?

noodle1978uk - Aug 29, 2003 - 02:29 AM
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Whichever TEAM wins the overall nationals (there are 30 events!) has to host it next year... Thats how I ended up with the job. I won the BB tournie, and Sheffield won the overall event.

Chris - Aug 29, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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So if the university of NAF won the bloodbowl they wouldn't have to host it? Smile

noodle1978uk - Sep 03, 2003 - 09:38 AM
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