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Rules Questions - New elf team?

drowgamer - Jun 24, 2003 - 08:43 AM
Post subject: New elf team?

http://www.specialist-games.com/bloodbowl/mag.htm

In the new blood bowl mag ( #8 ) there is talk about a new elf team, possibly with new minis? My gw store dosnt have it. By any chance does any of you have it and maybe give me the lowdown. Im not asking you to post all the stats rules, but i was wondering whats different with this team? Id it all the elfs subraces on one team? Maybe a combo of wood/ high? Any info you got would be sweet.

Rob

Indigo - Jun 24, 2003 - 08:52 AM
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The new elf team is indeed coming out soon, and as far as I remember the stats are:

0-12 Lineman 60k 6 3 4 7 None
0-2 Thrower 70k 6 3 4 7 Pass
0-4 Catcher 100k 8 3 4 7 Catch, Leap
0-2 Blitzer 110k 7 3 4 8 Block, Side Step

All players can take either General and agility skills, and the thrower may take passing ones too
Rerolls cost 50k

Kinda like a cross between helfs and welfs really. There are pics here:

Links from Travellers site.

Doubleskulls - Jun 24, 2003 - 09:00 AM
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Same as HE team except

Line elves -1Av, 60k
Thrower -1Av, 70k
Catcher +Leap, 100k
Blitzer +Side Step, 110k

JasonC - Jun 24, 2003 - 09:46 AM
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I'm sorry, but those look like crap. I will not be buying those, thats for sure. The whole vacilating back to cyber- universe is a bunch of sheeat.

Darkson - Jun 24, 2003 - 10:32 AM
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Hving seen this team (by another painter) at the March BB tournament, I have to say the pictures in WD/BB Mag don't do the models justice.

Doubleskulls - Jun 24, 2003 - 10:39 AM
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Darkson wrote:

Hving seen this team (by another painter) at the March BB tournament, I have to say the pictures in WD/BB Mag don't do the models justice.

I'd agree with that, or at least I hope so as I'm getting a team pro painted. Oh and needless to say I really like the cyber-fantasy look. Much more BB than the WFB look.

aerofool - Jun 24, 2003 - 08:36 PM
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Just for your info, I called mail order a few weeks ago about them and these guys are due out in mid to late august.

Doubleskulls - Jun 25, 2003 - 02:09 AM
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WTF ??? They are due for July release according to White Dwarf. As the BB Mag #8 has them in I was expecting it to be very soon.

Indigo - Jun 25, 2003 - 02:43 AM
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at the BB and on every Games Day preview pic I've seen they all say "UK release July"

I'll ask my mate at the local GW store to see if I can have a peek at his release schedule. Wouldn't put much faith in what the trolls say

Doubleskulls - Jun 25, 2003 - 06:47 AM
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I just got an email from Andy Hall - 8th July is the official release date.

Longshot - Jun 25, 2003 - 07:35 AM
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GREAT!

Sputnik - Jun 25, 2003 - 08:26 AM
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This looks indeed as a possible new tournament team I could live with, hehehe Very Happy

Let's see when they become official and how the final stats will be like (I have a strange feeling the last word has not been spoken yet)! Confused

Sputnik

Doubleskulls - Jun 25, 2003 - 09:36 AM
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Sputnik wrote:

This looks indeed as a possible new tournament team I could live with, hehehe Very Happy

Are you trying to copy Marcus's exact words?

BTW all that leap is a pain to deal with, especially when combined with lots of TRR.

skummy - Jun 25, 2003 - 09:55 AM
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I'm just happy to see that the Catchers lost NOS. The overall low cost for the team is a little worrying, but I think that will be a bigger problem in Tournaments than in Leagues. The low armor should keep them in a perpetual state of replacement.

Of course, the low lineman cost is interesting. No other player with a 4 AG has ever had a 60k pricetag...

Doubleskulls - Jun 25, 2003 - 10:32 AM
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Well I played against JJB on Monday with a 10 man HE roster (TR104 2 Blitzers, 1 Thrower, 7 Line Elves, 2 TRR, 7 FF) vs TR100 Elves (3 Catchers, 1 Thrower, 7 Line, 4TRR, 5FF).

To be honest I didn't think they were that bad. Av7 means players will drop like flies, and although he won I think he would have won more convincingly with any other rookie Elf team.

Tutenkharnage - Jun 25, 2003 - 10:47 AM
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ObOddFact: In the NFL, an "Elf" team has actually suffered the least amount of turnover despite his team's dead-last rankings in AV. Dumb luck of the dice, that's all.

You can see more here:

http://www22.brinkster.com/angelli/bloodbowl/

-Chet

skummy - Jun 25, 2003 - 10:53 AM
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"Defenders of Cormanthyr" is the team, for those wondering.

Sometimes statistical abberations like that can happen. Surprisingly few niggles on the roster as well - I guess your league does not use aging?

Tutenkharnage - Jun 25, 2003 - 03:09 PM
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skummy wrote:

"Defenders of Cormanthyr" is the team, for those wondering.

Better check 'em out now, because they play my Raiders on Sunday. And I guarantee they won't look the same when we're done with 'em Twisted Evil

skummy wrote:

Surprisingly few niggles on the roster as well - I guess your league does not use aging?

If by "surprisingly few" you mean "none," I'd have to agree! In truth, we don't use niggling injuries at all. Instead, we run with the following SI table:

2-7: MNG
8: MNG and Bonehead
9: MNG and AV-1
10: MNG and MA-1
11: MNG and AG-1
12: MNG and ST-1

This leaves us with slightly fewer (3) permanent effects, but more stat reductions (4) than the standard table. I believe stat reducers are greater agents of turnover than niggling injuries, which often have no effect on the player and rarely (if ever) convince a coach to retire a good player. As for niggling injuries, Boneheads are worse - they cause a player to miss the same amount of time (1/6 of all playing time), they can't be healed automatically by an Apothecary, and they waste Blitz actions and the like for the coach.

We don't use ageing, either. We run with a few tweaks that make it unnecessary, in our opinion. Among these options:

1. A stingier winnings table
2. A 5-skill player limit (with a practical limit of 4 skills, or 50 SPPs)
3. More liberal fouling rules

We've played 104 games in our league. On average, teams in our league suffer the following every 4 games:

* One permanent death
* One permanent SI effect

Those are PERMANENT effects, meaning that you have to replace a player every 4 games (on average) AND someone else got dinged up. You can't replace a player every other game, of course - certainly not with a tighter winnings table in place - so only one of eight teams fields 16 players. The rest put together squads of 12-14 players apiece, 1 or 2 of whom are usually missing the next contest. And each team is carrying 3-4 permanent effects apiece.

You can view more by poking around the RULES section of our site, especially the "LRB Review" document.

-Chet

skummy - Jun 25, 2003 - 03:51 PM
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I'll certainly look them over, but the sample size of your league is way too small to draw meaningful results yet. Good luck against the Elves!

EDIT: They're very different. I could probably start a whole new post discussing them. I'm not sure why the "heckling" change was made in the kickoff table. The altered money table is something I like a lot. Skills and traits seem to encourage the breaking of armor, but take away all bonuses to injury. Very interesting.

Tutenkharnage - Jun 26, 2003 - 06:14 AM
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skummy wrote:

This doesn't have much to do with Elves - the subject of this thread - so I apologize in advance for this short capsule answer. (In the meantime, feel free to start a whole new post discussing them.)

SAMPLE SIZE: The league is relatively small (8 teams), but the number of team-games played now exceeds 100. Certain traits and maxims are becoming apparent.

LUCK: Thanks, I'll be happy with whatever good luck I get. (Had to toss in an Elf comment to keep this post on topic!)

HECKLING: It's just like Throw A Rock, only a Stunned player MUST leave the pitch. That's why it was changed.

MONEY: Essentially 20-TR bands (rather than 25-TR bands) with a bell curve for winnings. Modifiers are cut into 5K increments. It's very hard to roll poorly for long, which helps rookie teams; it's very hard to roll well for long, so modifiers "stick" to experienced teams. We also ditched the monetary bonus for winning a match, so negative winnings are more likely to make themselves known.

SKILLS & TRAITS: Injury mods are messy, plain and simple. Who needs to roll that extra casualty die anyway? Introducing the Eye because DP is too strong and you need a counter is silly. But this system works very well, especially in the fouling department. We have a team with 5 DPs, all of whom could combine for a +10 foul, one of whom would be given credit for a casualty, and no one thinks this is a problem. Even better, the DPs themselves have almost all stalled after gaining DP as a first skill.

Anyway, this is no longer about Elves. I'd be happy to continue a discussion in the House Rules forum, however.

-Chet

Tutenkharnage - Jun 26, 2003 - 06:47 AM
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To bring this post back on topic...

I came to Jervis with the idea for this team 2-3 months after Resurrection. Jervis had made a comment about "Elves" at the tournament. I, like a few others, believed that he meant to reincorporate the High Elf and Wood Elf rosters. So my original suggestion was something like this:

Lineman: 7347 (70K)
Thrower: 7347 Pass (90K)
Catcher: 8347 Dodge, Catch (100K)
Blitzer: 7348 Block, Side Step (110K)

Close to that, anyway. I figured that a combination of HE and WE should be based on the 7347 model if it was supposed to (a) differ from DEs and (b) rekindle memories of the 2E Elf team. The Thrower and his price would forever delete the "HElf vs. DElf Thrower" debate, the Blitzer would be more like old Elf blitzers (more AV, more hitty), the Catchers would be a mix of some of the best qualities of the other two.

Of course, Jervis told me that he had no intention of deleting those two races. That didn't send me back to the drawing board, but it did make me reconsider the project. What was the point of introducing a team that had yet another copied statline?

I didn't intend to change the statline, but I did so after discussing it with some of the coaches in my league. One of us cobbled together the 6347 statline used in BBM8, and I recall fixing a price of 60K to the figure. This idea had appeal. Not only did we introduce something new - an AG4 player at 60K, a niche price which has not yet been fully explored in Blood Bowl - but it seemed to be a High Elf team that wasn't quite as damn stuffy as the Ulthuan guys in their heavy WHFB armor. It also introduced new possibilities for AG4 teams: with low prices, players were more expendable, but you could start your team with some re-rolls and position players.

Finally, this team was situated rather well between Wood and High. It was slower than Wood Elves, not as well armored as High Elves. But it was a new definition of "middle ground," since the price reduction keeps it from being branded obviously inferior to the other two.

Mind you, the team does have drawbacks. The 6347 model is clearly weaker than any of the other Elven statlines. The model is probably slightly overpriced from a purely mechanical standpoint, assuming that AG+1 is worth a skill (such as Dodge or Block). And it's still an AV7 team without any of the extra MA or skills that usually make such a team worthwhile.

But the Thrower is still cheap, the Blitzers are graceful, and the Catchers add a new dimension off the bat. I originally suggested Nerves of Steel to mimic the "icy cool" mentioned in the description, but this was voted down in favoir of Leap during a discussion of the team. The original statline remains for now in my local league, as does the Thrower's 80K price vs. the 70K in BBM8. According to our local Elf coach, the linemen feel slightly more disposable, the position players are slightly cooler, and the team isn't quite so difficult to build up monetarily if they can get past the first few games healthy. He's played High Elves in several leagues, so he's speaking from experience.

This team should also prove to be a decent tournament team. Granted, it's not very skill-heavy. But the cheaper linemen allow a coach to show up with more than 1 or 2 re-rolls and 11 players, 8 of whom are linemen. To my knowledge, Elves haven't placed well at any major tournament yet. Most bettors don't expect them to do so in the near future, either. But an experienced Elf coach might be able to do well in a tourney with this team - or get a fair shake, at least.

So there you have it. Regarding the models, I'm very partial to the Throwers. The Catchers look out of position - they can't all be leaping all the time - but they're certainly different. Oh, and the overall feel of the team rocks. Second Edition Elves had attitude. Third Edition Elves? None.

Cheers!

-Chet

Indigo - Jun 26, 2003 - 06:53 AM
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I like these, they limit runaway teams while still allowing a lot of "player enhancement" - i.e. seeing your players advance, which IMO is one of the best parts of BB.

Chet - have you got these written down "formally" anywhere and if so can you mail me a copy pls? david.candlish@convergys.com

noodle1978uk - Jun 26, 2003 - 08:18 AM
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Personally I think such rules are over the top - but thats us... We like to keep teams for a LONG time.... 50SPPs is far too low. we like the odd one to get to 100, without dying...

Maybe that means that in fluff terms our league is softer, richer and less brutal Very Happy

RE: Elves - The more variety the better... The rules are not overpowered and I LOVE the models Smile

Longshot - Jun 26, 2003 - 08:45 AM
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variety is good only if:
-it gives something new to the game (different way of play)
but there is already 3 elf team!
-If there is a background about those teams...
(is there any?)

Tutenkharnage - Jun 26, 2003 - 09:05 AM
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noodle1978uk wrote:

Personally I think such rules are over the top - but thats us... We like to keep teams for a LONG time.... 50SPPs is far too low. we like the odd one to get to 100, without dying...

We plan to keep these teams as long as possible. I think we've almost perfected the "perpetual Blood Bowl" system that was envisioned by Jervis, although obviously we need more testing time. I'm especially curious about the TR ceiling. I have a good idea where it lies, but we'll see.

As for the odd players getting to 100...well, we have 3 players over 50 SPPs. I imagine one or more of them might get there. They're all healthy. Far better than praying to Nuffle you don't age on every skill roll Wink

-Chet

noodle1978uk - Jun 26, 2003 - 09:10 AM
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Chet - I take it all back - after actually LOOKING at your rules I think they're really good Smile