NAF World Headquarters
Europe - Spettcake Bowl I, Malmö, Sweden
Puckohue - Jul 02, 2003 - 01:47 AM
Post subject: Spettcake Bowl I, Malmö, Sweden
Registration is now possible at http://www.sydcon.org
reventlov - Jul 03, 2003 - 12:51 AM
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What about the rules? Are they up any time soon?
If I like the rules the chance of attending this event is better.
dwarfcoach - Jul 04, 2003 - 09:50 AM
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Ok, so what does the word 'Spettcake' mean then? Is it a made up name or a Swedish thing.....?
Puckohue - Jul 05, 2003 - 02:31 AM
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Spettkaka is a regionally traditional cake made of eggs and sugar and frosting mostly. It's produced by dropping the ingredients on a rotating stick called "spett" in Swedish. It's actually called Pyramid Cake in English, but it sounded too boring.
Puckohue - Jul 11, 2003 - 07:57 AM
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Rules now available here!
reventlov - Jul 12, 2003 - 05:44 AM
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First the link puts you into a swedish site. So you foreigners won't understand it. 
I must say I was disappointed when I read the rules.
My reasons why I won't attend:
1. Stars and Wizards allowed.
2. 1.000.000gps. Makes no room for versatility (sp?)
3. SPP like in any league. Well if I wanted that I'd play a league not a tournament.
4. To have Team Rating as major swiss determination is more than crazy. It makes it a pure luck game.
Too sum it up.
I won't attend because the rules set sucks for a tournament.
Thats's my opinion.
Have a nice life,
Reventlov
Puckohue - Jul 14, 2003 - 02:46 AM
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Well, you can't always get what you want...
We knew we were going to upset some people with these rules but, as you say, you're free to decide not to participate.
We've taken all arguments we've found here and on the TBB forum on tournament rules into account and this is the result. Some arguments against what we've decided were good ("A team can get whacked in its first match"), some were... not so good ("If I wanted that I'd play a league not a tournament" 
). Together they didn't quite convince us to abandon the league rules.
We've also decided to put some energy into a proper evalutation and start a discussion on the rules well in time before we arrange our next tournament.
In short: we like the league rules, and we like the LRB, and we like sticking to "official" rules. If they don't work in a tournament setting we wanted to experience that for ourselves.
Indigo - Jul 14, 2003 - 02:56 AM
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it's good using the LRB for the main rules, but IMO using the SPP system in a tournament could be potentially unbalancing. What if someone plays a halfling team in their first match? They then get stacks of skills and go on to win...
Or what if someone rolls a double 6 and gets a ST increase?
Stars/Wizards is not as important, and is only really a matter of personal taste, as is using $1m - opinions are still divided as to whether this limits elven teams or not, but it doesn't in mine.
Not sure what is meant by using "TR as major swiss determination" but if it means the highest TR plays next highest and so on then it is flawed - what if someone wins 1-0, but the loser gets enough CAS to make their TR the same? It could result in a huge amount of coaches drawn against previous opponents... swiss works best as it seriously reduces consecutive round pairings, and ensures the best always play the best.
Puckohue - Jul 14, 2003 - 08:29 AM
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Indigo wrote:
using the SPP system in a tournament could be potentially unbalancing. What if someone plays a halfling team in their first match? They then get stacks of skills and go on to win...
Yes, this is IMO the biggest danger in using the LRB league rules in a tournament - but we decided to go for it anyway as we wanted to keep what we thought was the spirit of the game (ie the risk of getting your team trashed in the first match) rather than arrange a stylised tournament.
And if someone gets stacks of skills then their Team Rating will go up, and they'll have to play someone else with a high Team Rating.
Indigo wrote:
Or what if someone rolls a double 6 and gets a ST increase?
I'd be the first to congratulate!
Indigo wrote:
the highest TR plays next highest and so on then it is flawed - what if someone wins 1-0, but the loser gets enough CAS to make their TR the same? It could result in a huge amount of coaches drawn against previous opponents... swiss works best as it seriously reduces consecutive round pairings, and ensures the best always play the best.
Yes, but if the highest rated team has already played the second highest they will play the third instead - two teams will not play against each other more than once.
The reason we will not let number of wins etc decide the swiss ranking is to counteract the potential differences in team advancement - a team with many SPPs (=more skills) and many surviving players (maybe even new recruits) will not play a team that's suffered serious damage.
And, I'd like to point out once again, we regard this as a test - we know it might not work. If that's the case we'll change the rules 'til next time!
Indigo - Jul 14, 2003 - 08:39 AM
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I think it's a good idea to try new rules variants for tournaments - the tourney scene is still in it's infancy so we need to experiment! I just can't see SPPs working in a tourney at all. I know that if I had a crap first match then it would ruin my tournament as I wouldn't stand a chance of competing - at least with "pure" swiss you can still compete. Fair enough, I'm there for more than just winning, but I expect on having a fighting chance in each game.
Imagine W.Elves vs Gobbos - they score loads and kill loads, then one of their catchers gets +1MA and Sprint. That's 1 turn TDs and they are well placed for the rest of the tournament.
Do injuries carry over?
Puckohue - Jul 14, 2003 - 09:52 AM
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Indigo wrote:
I know that if I had a crap first match then it would ruin my tournament as I wouldn't stand a chance of competing
That's why we included the option to abandon your team and start a new. This way you're never going to be left far behind after only one game, and you would have a chance of competing.
Indigo wrote:
W.Elves vs Gobbos - they score loads and kill loads, then one of their catchers gets +1MA and Sprint.
That's what I mean by "the spirit of the game" - these things might happen.
Indigo wrote:
Do injuries carry over?
Yes. Everything carries over.
Indigo - Jul 14, 2003 - 10:00 AM
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Puckohue wrote:
Yes. Everything carries over.
Puckohue - Jul 14, 2003 - 10:09 AM
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Indigo wrote:
Darkson - Jul 14, 2003 - 10:40 AM
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In a tournamnt like this then, I'd probably run dwarves. OK, so they won't score loads, but they probably won't take half as much punishment as the other teams.
skummy - Jul 14, 2003 - 10:58 AM
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How about something like Chaos Dwarves? They are the most durable team with solid scoring punch, and who cares if you lose a hobgob?
AnthonyTBBF - Jul 14, 2003 - 11:01 AM
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it doesn't really matter what the rules are IMO, I go to tourneys to have fun and play a little BB with people I don't normally get to game with. In the end, I couldn't care less what the rules are.
Darkson - Jul 14, 2003 - 11:15 AM
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But would you still have as much fun if you were down to 6 players after 2 games?
Puckohue - Jul 15, 2003 - 12:49 AM
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Darkson wrote:
In a tournamnt like this then, I'd probably run dwarves. OK, so they won't score loads, but they probably won't take half as much punishment as the other teams.
You've got a point. Still, there must be some leagues consisting not entirely of Dwarves and Chaos Dwarves. And surely some of these other races manage to win a league once in a while?
Only if you're a very careful or defensive player will the choice of Dwarf or Chaos Dwarf be the only one. Choosing a Skaven or Elf team will put you at risk of being beaten to pulp, but that's nothing new. That's Blood Bowl.
reventlov - Jul 15, 2003 - 01:30 AM
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Well, I hope you get a great number of coaches to test your rules but I doubt it. I'm pretty sure more people than me won't spend the time with that tournament when the chances of being demolished first game (or second) would take out a lot of fun from the game.
Tournaments ar for fun but I play to win also. If I feel the rules are not making the best coach win but the luckiest coach win I see no point in being there.
Please, Puckohue, don't take this the wrong way, but I hoped for more and was really disappointed with the ruleset. Wasn't the rules at Lincon ok? Next year no painting/convertion etc will be counted. Sportmanship though will have some impact.
How will you handle or control cheaters? I must say with your system it's very tempting to just modify some dices like gate, injuries etc....Will you trust people or have a judge at every table?
I still think your system favours luck instead of skill. I play halflings first match and get some critical upgrades and wow I have a good chance in the tournament but did I get there because I played well? No just luck.
See ya next tournament perhaps.
Mestari - Jul 15, 2003 - 02:54 AM
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The reason I like the rules seen in most tournaments is the fact that it ensures matches between even teams. It maximises the amount of happy coaches and minimises the threat of unhappy coaches in the tournament.
Permanent injuries and possibly wrecked teams in turn result in unhappy coaches who feel that their chances were ripped off just because they were a bit unlucky with injuries.
Indigo - Jul 15, 2003 - 03:12 AM
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true.
if you are at a disadvantage in future matches due to injuries, then the pairings are not fair. Say I was playing Mestari, but he had lost 3 players for our match - if I won, it wouldn't have shown who was the better player, it would simply have shown I can take advantage of a depleted, under-strength team.
Fair enough, this game is based on luck, but where possible a coach's skill should be used to decide the outcome of a match. SPPs were designed for long term league structures, where player loss and injuries tend to be averaged across all teams, but in a 6 match tournament they are too unbalanced. I know you want to take a pure LRB approach, but bear in mind the league rules are NOT for tournaments and this WILL show on the day.
still, it'll be interesting to see what happens... I just don't think I'd want to participate in a tournament where one bad result would ruin my chances for EVERY match in the tournament, rather than just one.
Capulet - Jul 23, 2003 - 09:11 AM
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Heres my five cents of wisdom...
I have run tournaments using the standard league rules before and it has worked out just fine. The major concern here seems to be that a better coach can loose a tournament because of bad luck or the opponents good luck. If you win because you calculated all the moves in the right way or because you took advantage of the other teams weaknesses really doesn't matter to me, it's just different strategies - the winner is still the winner.
I guess you could crunch all the numbers and lay out the statistics, but at the end of the day I really don't think it matters that much what rules you use - the great coaches will still win over the mediocre and incompetent. My only hope is that the mediocre and incompetent coaches had a lot of fun in the process.
Hopefully we will get enough coaches to run the tournament and then we'll see if we did the right choice... 
Indigo - Jul 24, 2003 - 02:19 AM
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must... resist....
sorry but I couldn't!
What if a team gets a pitch invasion that does a reasonable number of BH, SI or RIP results? There is a difference between playing skill on the pitch and then sheer luck when it comes to rolling skills & permanent injuries.
LouisX - Jul 24, 2003 - 02:49 AM
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Capulet wrote: Quote:
I guess you could crunch all the numbers and lay out the statistics, but at the end of the day I really don't think it matters that much what rules you use - the great coaches will still win over the mediocre and incompetent. My only hope is that the mediocre and incompetent coaches had a lot of fun in the process.
Hopefully we will get enough coaches to run the tournament and then we'll see if we did the right choice...
I must say you're wrong. Like it happened during the BB or the RDV BB, i destroyed at least one of my 6 opponents teams... 
What are these people chances after that (when you have 2 deaths, 4 SI.....)?
It's not fun. The normal system works fine for a league. For a tournament, it's not the best system. You either end up with only having strong teams or people being frustrated. Don't tell me that winning against 6 high elves with orcs or dwarves shows how you play... 
Capulet - Jul 31, 2003 - 05:41 AM
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Well, obviously there are different ways of looking at Blood Bowl... I like to think of it from more of a roleplaying perspective, i.e. it's the better team that should win not the better coach. Bad luck is just bad luck and if I get struck by it I at least have something to blame
I understand all of your concerns if you look at it in from a board/stategic games perpective, where the the skill of the coach is what counts...
Spettcake is however a tournament that takes the roleplaying perspective since there seems to be few, if any, other tournaments doing that and I for one think that uniformity is an evil thing 
Capulet - Aug 04, 2003 - 12:28 AM
Post subject: Spettcake review
The first Spettcake Bowl was finished this weekend and the general comments from the attending coaches were positive. The number of coaches attending was rather small, eight to be exact. We had one team that got half of its players injured during the first game and the coach chose to leave the team and start with another. We also had one coach leaving the tournament after two games since he wasn't doing very well.
The winning team was a High Elf team and the runner up was Skaven.
I suppose it is impossible to say that the league rules work perfectly fine after running one tournament with only eight teams, but at least we can say that it is not imossible and that we will do it again!