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Rules Questions - Pushing

Ratin_Mutants - Jul 20, 2003 - 03:12 PM
Post subject: Pushing

A little question....

Can I push this player out? A = attacker, A+ = Assist, D= Defender and D+ Assist

A+ A
D D+ A+
A+

I would guess that there are no problems for A to push D out!

And will at it, can I chose to push a player into an occupied field eventhough there is one or more empty fields?

Old_Man_Monkey - Jul 20, 2003 - 04:29 PM
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If I understand your diagram correctly and A is blocking D, and the rest have no applicable skills such as Guard, then:

1. there are no assists: D+ cancels all the A+ assists and the A+s cancel the D+ assist. So it just a straight A (plus skills) vs D (plus skills) block - should the result in a pushback, and should D not have a skill that prevents a pushback, then yes, D can be pushed off the field;

2. No.

Doubleskulls - Jul 21, 2003 - 02:46 AM
Post subject:

The priority for pushbacks is

1) Empty squares (including the ball)
2) Out of bounds
3) Occupied Square

So in the following example you must push your opponent out of bounds.

Code:

|A

|D

|_B

A = assist
D = defender
B = blocker

Mordredd - Jul 21, 2003 - 04:37 AM
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Really? I'm pretty sure that 'out of bounds' is treated as an 'occupied square'. I.e. priority 2 and 3 are actually the same.

This is because the LRB says that you must be pushed back into empty space if available, or an occupied space if not. It then says that you can only be pushed into the crowd if there are no empty spaces available. My interpretation of this is that the sidelines are squares that are permanently occupied by the crowd, so you could choose to push back the player in the occupied sideline square, if you wanted to.

Old_Man_Monkey - Jul 21, 2003 - 05:05 AM
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Hmm, I think your order is correct, (althought there may actually be a 'choice' here - though it would seem that 'into crowd and roll for injury' just is 'assumed' automatically) 2Xskulls, but your drawing is not. If I'm reading it correctly, there is an empty space next to B, which is where D will pushback. If the empty space awas filled, then the defender is pushed out of bounds (again I'm not sure if this is a 'choice' taken by habit or automatic). Other's answers?

Deacon - Jul 21, 2003 - 05:09 AM
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Doubleskulls is right. Smile

Old_Man_Monkey - Jul 21, 2003 - 05:14 AM
Post subject:

Do you agree that his drawing is right, Deac?

Doubleskulls - Jul 21, 2003 - 05:50 AM
Post subject:

LRB pp 11

Quote:

The player must be pushed back into an empty square if possible. If all such squares are occupied by other players, then the player is pushed into an occupied square, and the player that originally occupied the square is pushed back in turn.

Players may only be pushed off the field if there are no eligible empty squares on the field.

Although it isn't presented as clear as I would like there is nothing to say you can choose an occupied square over out of bounds.

Tutenkharnage - Jul 21, 2003 - 06:35 AM
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The drawing is correct. B is the Blocker, A is now the "Assister" rather than the "Attacker" of the first drawing.

Regarding pushing a player into an available occupied square rather than out of bounds...dunno. I don't think the rules say you can't. We've always played that "OOB is like an unoccupied square" as detailed above, but the rules don't say that. I can't think of a time it's mattered, either - if I'm the attacker, I wouldn't try anything that would get my player shoved out of bounds! So, by definition, I always want players pushed out of bounds when I'm the attacker.

-Chet

Old_Man_Monkey - Jul 21, 2003 - 07:00 AM
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Thanks, O Mighty Tut - my eyes were not focused yet! Embarassed

Mordredd - Jul 21, 2003 - 09:16 AM
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Ok, it is a pretty rare occurrence, but I have seen people do it to be nice. (Don't laugh. I had a human team coach who was the Bright Crusaders in all but name. Laughing

) I have also seen it done to break into a cage, but only once mind.

Quote:

Players may only be pushed off the field if there are no eligible empty squares on the field.

Yes, may. It's optional, and only an option when there are no available empty squares. At least by my interpretation anyway. Having said that, I personally have never wasted an opportunity to put 'em in the crowd either.

GalakStarscraper - Jul 21, 2003 - 09:22 AM
Post subject:

Huh .... guess I've never seen it that way.

But I agree with the interpretation. If you REALLY wanted to push the player on the field you could. But as has been said, 98% of coaches would choice to launch him into the crowd.

Galak

Indigo - Jul 22, 2003 - 03:53 AM
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it's also a good tactic to use if it pushes one of your players nearer the end zone, like I sometimes try with my catchers.

Puckohue - Nov 19, 2003 - 10:50 PM
Post subject:

Quote:

I can't think of a time it's mattered, either

In our league a coach chose to push a player along the sideline in order to push the ballcarrier out of bounds.

The LRB says that

Quote:

Players may only be pushed off the field if there are no eligible empty squares on the field

Note the word may

Any comments? Or do we have to house rule on this? Sad

Darkson - Nov 20, 2003 - 01:13 AM
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We always counted the crowd as an occupied square, so a player could keep the opposition on the pitch if he wanted to, but it never happened in our last league or cup.

Zombie - Nov 20, 2003 - 02:19 AM
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I never thought about that, but you're right, you *could* decide to keep him inbounds.

Doubleskulls - Nov 20, 2003 - 03:01 AM
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Mordredd wrote:

Quote:

Players may only be pushed off the field if there are no eligible empty squares on the field.

I disagree. "Players may only ... " This is indicating the only circumstance under which players are eligible to pushed OOB. It does not mean that it is optional.

Mordredd - Nov 20, 2003 - 07:25 AM
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It does not make it compulsory either. The only way, IMO, to logically account for having to push into empty squares over OOB is that there is some resistance/barrier to being put in the crowd. I.e. the spectators themselves, or perhaps a small wall or fence between the pitch and stands. This would make OOB equivalent to an occupied square, and the normal rules of push back gives you a choice of which occupied square the defender goes into.

Tutenkharnage - Nov 20, 2003 - 11:25 AM
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Well, don't forget balance - you can't have people flying off the pitch from any adjacent square to the sideline, or the sideline will be off limits!

But Doubleskulls has the grammar down. Whether that was the intent...dunno. But it's certainly a very, very rare situation.

-Chet

Puckohue - Nov 20, 2003 - 10:43 PM
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The rules are clear on empty squares - you can't go OOB if there's an empty square to choose.

But when there are no empty squares to choose - do you HAVE TO push the player OOB, or can you choose one of the occupied squares?

The answers here seem to say that there's no "official" interpretation.

Zombie - Nov 21, 2003 - 02:40 AM
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There is one official in that there's only one way to read the rules as they're written, i.e. you may opt not to. But there's no official answer in that we can't be sure that this was the intention of the rules, although we'll probably know that as well pretty soon!

Tutenkharnage - Nov 21, 2003 - 02:09 PM
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Nah, this didn't make it into this year's Rules Review. You might have an answer next year, however.

-Chet

jmccubbin - Nov 24, 2003 - 05:47 PM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:

I never thought of this before, but I would make my final choice based upon if I thought I could break armor or not. If the armor was low and I had mighty blow or piling on, I think I would take the armor roll so I could get SPP. Otherwise, it's into the crowd. SPP would be the only reason I would not push into crowd.

If I was being nice, I would not throw the block.