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Rules Questions - a matter of opinion on fumbling the pass...

destro - Feb 17, 2003 - 11:06 PM
Post subject: a matter of opinion on fumbling the pass...

does anyone know if the rules guys have clarified the rule about fumbling a pass on a modified one? I know that they have talked about changing the rule to only be in effect when dealing with tackle zones and not pass distance, FA, and very sunny conditions. Have they made the change yet? Does anyone even use the rule as is? It would seem to me that as it stands now, the rule severly hinders passing teams for doing what they are supposed to do best. It would also make it more difficult than it already is for a halfling or goblin to be thrown gracelessly through the air which I personally love to see the joy/pain of players who try.

I know that in the rulebook it is considered an extra rule and therefore optional, but does anyone use it or is it discarded and not used by most people? I am interested in peoples interpretation on what is to be made of this rule and how they use it or not.

thanks for listening,
destro

McSnaga - Feb 18, 2003 - 01:59 AM
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I use it. If you know the rule, then you tend to use shorter passes (until you have strong arm and/or accurate. It's a game mechanic - High AG passing teams generally score more than others. With this rule they tend to make less long bombs.

Grumbledook - Feb 18, 2003 - 07:23 AM
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No its still the same you fumble on a modified 1

spindex - Feb 18, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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I like the rule of a rolling either a natural one or 1 or les after mods this makes it harder to throw the ball to the other side of the field and useing high speed to get there first. (you still can use this tactic just more risky)
spindex

spindex - Feb 18, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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destro - Feb 19, 2003 - 12:05 AM
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I guess what my biggest problem with the rule is that a person in the open field in no tackle zone trying to throw a long bomb will fumble the ball half the time, 1-3 on the dice. it just doesn't seem to make that much sense to me that a player would fumble the ball to an adjacent square for trying to throw the ball farther, you would think the pass more likely to be innaccurate, not a fumble. I can see how tackle zones and pouring rain would affect the fumble of the ball but not distance. with the rule as is, a troll is most likely going to fumble a thrown goblin and he cannot use team rerolls or gain passing skills to decrease his odds of failure which in my opinion, ruins the reason anyone plays goblins in the first place. if an agility four player makes a long bomb attempt in no tackle zone, a roll of 5-6 is a success, 4 innaccurate, and 1-3 a fumble. If you add one tackle zone to the equation, the player can only succeed or fumble. does it seem right that an agility 4 player is going to fumble more than he will be innaccurate or succeed? Especially since someone with hail mary pass who can throw the ball to anywhere on the board only fumbles on a one no matter how many tackle zones are applied (does that seem right?).
granted this is only dealing with long bomb attempts which I rarely see in a game anyways, and I have not seen anyone attempt to throw the ball down field and try to race for the ball, most players I game with don't leave themselves that open to be exploited in such a way. it just seems to me that an action that can only be done once a turn can be that erradict just because you try to throw the ball farther.

thanks for listening,
destro

Squiggoth - Feb 19, 2003 - 03:44 AM
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I think along the same line - somehow when an Ogre tries to throw a Goblin a short distance the Goblin is likely to be thrown inaccurate and scatter, but when the Ogre tries to throw him a long distance he'll just drop the Goblin. That doesn't make any sense to me, even if it is true...

Deathwing - Feb 19, 2003 - 05:03 AM
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It's a game mechanic. Forget 'real world' logic, we're talking about a fantasy game with little metal players. It doesn't make any sense that
everybody else stands still while each player takes an action in turn either. Very Happy

Without it a GR or any Elf that gets an AG becomes a devastating long range passer. That kind of makes a mockery of specialist Thrower positions and throwing skills. To Pass the ball with any degree of success it's only right that you need Strong Arm, Pass, Accurate.

Squiggoth - Feb 19, 2003 - 06:18 AM
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I now it makes sense on behalf of game mechanics, it's just that Goblins tend to break rather easily when thrown... Smile

destro - Feb 19, 2003 - 12:26 PM
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actually I am refering to game mechanics, not real world situations. If a GR or any elf gets an agility bonus like you stated, his chance of fumble on a long bomb does not decrease, it is still 1-3. therefore he is no better off in terms of fumbling, instead his passes will either always be accurate or they will always fumble since 1-3 is fumble and 4-6 is success on long bomb attempts with AG5. that just doesn't make sense.

I agree that specialist throwers are important, and with the skills that they can get they can become the best throwers in the game. but what about a troll or ogre? they can't get passing skills, how are they to get any better? I play goblins on occasion and the only way for them to score on most teams is for one lucky gobbo to be chucked as far as possible with the ball away from the enemy. that is less likely to happen now. and as for elven teams, when starting a league, most elven teams cannot afford to start with a thrower if they want rerolls or are willing to sacrifice something else, and no other elf can get passing skills. that sets those teams behind others in terms of gaining momentum in the league.

A high agility does not let you reroll any attempt, that is where skills have there value. in game terms, a high agility player is going to fumble just as equally as any other player on any pass attempt. only if he has passing skills which most players cannot get will he be able to alter his chances. as the rule stands now there are going to be more fumbled pass attempts then innaccurate ones. that seems unbalanced to me.

skummy - Feb 19, 2003 - 12:39 PM
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Quote:

but what about a troll or ogre? they can't get passing skills, how are they to get any better?

Pro is a good skill for a big guy if he's going to be chucking a lot of gobbos. Pass is another useful skill you can get him on doubles. The throw teammate and passing skills are intentionally a bit difficult at long range because they aren't meant to be reliably used very often.

You only wind up with more fumbles than actual passes if your team is trying to pass further than quick or short range. Most teams can't depend on doing this very reliably at all.

Deathwing - Feb 19, 2003 - 01:08 PM
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destro wrote:

Obviously I wasn't clear.
Currently, yes. An AG5 player fumbles a Long Bomb on a 1-3.
Without the modified 1 is a fumble rule, an AG5 player will be still be accurate on a 4+, but on a 2 or 3 he's gonna be inaccurate rather than fumbling as the rule stands now. So while it doesn't increase his chance of being accurate, it still makes him a whole lot better at throwing the football in that it lessens the inherent risk. It does the same for every Joe Bloggs lineman in the game in fact.

And yes, it has all kinds of implications for TTM, it'd make it far too easy! Smile

We had quite an in-depth discussion on this a while back on TBB, I'll see if I can find the thread and post the link.

skummy - Feb 19, 2003 - 01:19 PM
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Quote:

We had quite an in-depth discussion on this a while back on TBB, I'll see if I can find the thread and post the link.

I believe you can also see my progression from hard core "only fumble on a 1" to my current stance in these threads as well. Wink

I think they were started by xynok, but I can't remember the titles of them.

destro - Feb 19, 2003 - 02:26 PM
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I would like to see the thread if you find it. I am always glad to hear a different view point, it lets me know that people really care about a particular game. I dont want to come off like a pushy jerk or anything, I am new to the forum medium and just like to discuss rules and what not. sometimes people have differing viewpoints based on the teams they play. I play mostly humans, goblins and am starting to learn wood elves and dwarves, maybe that is a factor in my stance on the rule.

my only real beef with the fumbled pass rule is distance thrown being a factor in causing a fumble, other than that I like the rule. makes things more gritty.

thanks for putting up with my crap,
destro

skummy - Feb 19, 2003 - 03:14 PM
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Ah, I found it - and I don't think you're giving anyone crap. Smile

The range problem used to be a big factor for me as well, but the deciding factor was the effect the rules had on Throw Teammate. Fumbling only on a "1" there was just a little too powerful, especially when 4 agility goblins are introduced.

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3621&highlight=

I think you'll find a lot of reading here. For one thing, Deathwing was helping out a pair of newbies Embarassed

at the time, and gave them some additional links to look over.

Deathwing - Feb 19, 2003 - 05:54 PM
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Heh. About 3 threads to look over there, this one's quite an old chestnut.
Enjoy! Very Happy

(And no, you're not coming across like a jerk at all. Smile

)

Thanks for digging that up skummy, I was getting around to it, saved me the trouble.

liviath - Feb 20, 2003 - 03:45 PM
Post subject: What I like best about the "modified 1"

Have any of you ever played Ultimate Frisbee? If you have, you would know it's a game that consists of everyone running down to one end to get the frisbee and then sailing it down to the other end. Then everyone runs down there until a defender gets it to sail it back to the opposite end.
If the "modified 1" rule was gone, this is what BB would deteriate down to. Someone chucking it to the opposite end every turn until the faster players got to the ball first to score. This would not be a fun game.
If you think about it, fumbling does not happen that often for a "thrower" (the one who should be good at passing). If you fumble a long bomb on a 1-3, then a thrower [who starts with the pass skill], would only fumble it 25% of the time. And that is just a rookie! When he finally gets SPPs and gets Strong Arm, he will only fumble it 11% of the time.

destro - Feb 21, 2003 - 12:12 AM
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I am not sure about you guys but I have never seen anyone in our league willingly give up the ball by throwing to a spot where they "might" be able to get to first. I am not sure how that could be a good tactic. most people I play against believe heavily in ball control and that is the reason I brought up the rules question in the first place. do alot of people try this tactic?

liviath - Feb 21, 2003 - 01:55 AM
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Imagine both teams milling around the line of scrimmage. We'll say it's dwarves versus skaven. The gutter runners ran deep into your side of the field. You mange to knock the ball loose and get it, but it's your 1 dwarf runner versus 3 gutter runners. If you can easily ditch the ball back into the fray you would. I have seen it. Dwarves are too slow to send back reinforcements. Remember a Long Bomb is only half the field. So now you've sent it back to the LofS. Then let's say the skaven manage to knock it loose and recover the ball. Guess what, another long bomb sailing the ball back towards the endzone and the gutter runners. But this time the GR drops the pass. Well, the dwarf goes over gets the ball and sails it back to the safety of the dwarf mob at midfield. This could go on forever.

How about another example. Wood elves versus chaos. Chaos have been pounding the elves back to there endzone with the ball. But the elves manage to knock it loose and sail it to an empty square with a long bomb. And, uh oh, the chaos have all their players bunched up trying to kill the elves. So tell me, who's going to get the ball first; the MV 5 warrior or the MV 8 catcher?

Grumbledook - Feb 21, 2003 - 06:22 AM
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I often throw the ball away into space with my skaven if they havn't left someone far enough back to cover it. Though with out the fumbling range rules, it would be a lot easier to do this. It discourages throwing the long bomb which will get it further away but a greater chance of the fumble because of it.

Though if my gutter runner breaks through with the ball and the closest opponent can blitz him and then someone else can come pick the ball up, i will throw a quick or short pass in front of me. Cause then he can't get the ball the next turn and unless he gets my gutter runner down and stuneed, I should be able to pick it up and run it in.

destro - Feb 21, 2003 - 09:27 AM
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I see how that could work, except most people in my area always leave a guy or two back to play safety, more if its against a really fast team like elves and skaven so that situation doesn't really come up to often. the more tackle zones you put a GR through the more likely he will fail.

a couple of the skaven players put there rat ogre back in the safety position to give opponents something to think about before passing to their lone receiver. I see the bull centaur being very effective back there as well.

Deathwing - Feb 21, 2003 - 09:38 AM
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There's been a few situations in games where I've been under pressure at the end of a half and simply throwing the ball away out of range is an option. Without the range modifiers it becomes a much safer option.
You're in effect giving any lineman the ability to 'punt' the ball away with relative ease.