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Strategy and Tactics - High Elves, Can they hold their own in a bashy league.
Khaine - Nov 21, 2003 - 06:47 AM
Post subject: High Elves, Can they hold their own in a bashy league.
I am interested to hear some experiences of making a high elven team to weather a league of bashy teams. I would assume since they are humans with agillity that they would have a good chance of holding their own in a league with a high percentage of bashy team with the right skill set <i.e. Blodgy everything but passer, some DP, little MB, little Strip ball>. 
Zombie - Nov 21, 2003 - 06:49 AM
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They've got the best chance of any elf team, being the cheapest and having decent armour.
But it's always hard for an agility team to do well in a bashing league, just as it's hard for a bashing team to do well in an agility league.
Doubleskulls - Nov 21, 2003 - 07:20 AM
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They can do because the bashy teams will skill up to deal with the other bashy teams - so you wont see too much pass block, tackle etc. You do need a bit of luck so you don't get crippled too early on.
I'm playing Pro Elves in a league of Khemri, Lizardmen, Necromantic, Vampire, Chaos, Orc and Norse. I'm still 2nd.
Zombie - Nov 21, 2003 - 07:46 AM
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Those elves have 60k line-elves, right? That gives you a huge advantage compared to high elves in such a bashy league!
Khaine - Nov 21, 2003 - 07:50 AM
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60k lineelves for pro yep. Our league isn't allowing pro elves though.
Doubleskulls - Nov 21, 2003 - 07:53 AM
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Zombie69 wrote:
Those elves have 60k line-elves, right? That gives you a huge advantage compared to high elves in such a bashy league!
My pro elves are 60k - true, but they are also Av7 which means they get hurt a lot more. So far I've managed to avoid getting a real pummelling (only 2 games I've started with less than 11) but I'm sure its going to happen.
Zombie - Nov 21, 2003 - 08:00 AM
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I'd take 60k elves over AV8 elves anytime, especially in a bashy league. It makes replacements easier to come by, and it's also a big advantage in that it allows you to start your league with 1 or 2 extra rerolls, which means less money to spend later on acquiring them at double cost. To me, the 60k line-elves are by far the best advantage those elves have over any of the other 3 rosters. I'm even afraid that it makes this team overpowered compared to the other 3.
But hey, that's just my personal opinion. It shouldn't be taken as gospel.
Tutenkharnage - Nov 21, 2003 - 02:08 PM
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I played High Elves in a league in which the other top teams were Chaos, Undead, and Orcs. I did well. I think you'll have advantages in that league precisely because the other teams will gear up to stop each other, not to stop you.
But I'm also crazy enough to think that a High Elf team could compete well in a league of, say, nothing but Dwarves. I just wouldn't take Dodge in that league, but I'd take lots of Block, Side Step, and Jump Up 
-Chet
Mestari - Nov 21, 2003 - 02:16 PM
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High elves are definitely a good team, and should have good chances of making it in such a league. Just don't imagine you can outbeat your opponents in a headbutting contest, but play according to your strenghts - the greatest of which (especially compared to ST teams) is mobility.
LordCruSel - Dec 14, 2003 - 05:53 PM
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Hi just wondering what people think the best line up for a high elf team is? Im thinking of runing one but the few experimental games Ive played with them ended up with my team getting mashed.
martynq - Dec 15, 2003 - 12:08 AM
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LordCruSel wrote:
Hi just wondering what people think the best line up for a high elf team is?
2 dragon warriors (2 x 100k)
1 phoenix warriors (80k)
8 linemen (8 x 70k)
2 re-rolls (2 x 50k)
6 FF
Alternatively change the thrower to a lineman and increase FF by one, or change a blitzer into a lineman and increase the FF up to the 9 maximum.
Don't start with any lion warriors since you don't have the apothecary yet to protect them and they will gain SPPs more easily than the rest later on anyway. First purchase is the apothecary.
I would play the dodging away game and just try to gain SPPs... you might well lose the first few matches but you will survive more.
Martyn
Zombie - Dec 15, 2003 - 07:12 AM
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2 phoenix warriors
1 lion warrior
8 line-elves
2 rerolls
9 fan factor
LordCruSel - Dec 15, 2003 - 06:40 PM
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Cheers for the help peeps, Ill consider it.
SuM - Dec 16, 2003 - 08:39 AM
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Its a DONE DEAL NOW!!!
I played a 2004 Pre-Season game with another Coach...
He tried his New Human Team, The Nuns ("Sisters" seem
to be his Forte!)
I proxied my Amazons as High Elves, "How I want the
Shadow Forge Female HE team NOW?!?!!"
Because of the High Point Cost, I could only fielded 10 High Elves...
"Ohhh Man...This could hurt..", I thought to myself...
He had 11 Players on the Field, and 1 in Reserves...
1st Half:
Other Coach's Girlies received to start...
The Nuns were getting "Knock Outs" and injuring my Elves... My team began to dwindled in size.
He scored once, and my "Curse" showed it's ugly face, it acted up again...
7th Turn/ 1st Half:
I had players move into position to make it hard for the Humans to
get near my running elf that was going to score...
Mz. Kandy Kringle, (Lion Warrior) caught a pass, ran the ball like
Elves do...
I needed to do just one "Go for IT" to make it into the End
Zone... I had no Rerolls...
Yep, I rolled a "1"!! The ball luckly didn't scatter into the crowd...
The Humans were not in range to recover the ball, because of the
players I put in the way, but still moved toward the downed Elven player...
1st Half/ my 8th Turn:
Because of my lack of players on the field, I decided not to mess around,
"Stand Up, Pick up the Ball and SCORE!!!"
HAAAAAAAAAAA!!! I rolled another "1" the half ended...
2nd Half:
Score 1-0, Nuns on top...
My turn to receive...
I kept on losing player after player...
I scored once, and the Humans scored again...
2-1, Nuns on top.
Nearing the end of the game, I had 6 players on the field,
still scrapping with the Humans...
With these 6 Players... I couldn't believe my dice rolls... Dodging
thru Tackle Zones like Graceful Swans, "Going for its" with ease...
Throwing, Catching and running like a Jack rabbit being chased by Smeegal...
I scored once more to tie the game...
Thats right, with 6 players!!!
Mz. Kandy Kringle scored 2 Touchdowns and intercepted 1 pass!!!
She leveled up...
"Why do I say this is a Done-Deal with buying and owning a High Elf team???"
**The 8 Armor is soooooo much better then the ACME/ WalMart
Blue Light Special Armor the Amazon's Trainer's bought cheaply!!!
**Being able to move faster then Orcs, "HUGE PLUS!!!" Amazons
only move 6...
**AG 4, makes them do almost everything on a 2+, with my Dice Rolls,
I need all the help I can get!!!
I can not wait till the Spring League!!!
Blood Bowl is LIFE!!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the above game, I had 2 Phoenix Warriors, 2 Dragon warriors and 1 Lion Warrior, and 5 Line Elves...
5 Fan Factor and 3 Rerolls...
Ok, I changed it...
I wanna do a Heavy Lion Warrior Team, I want the Movement, and the Passing Gae is what I wanna work, right off of the start of our Spring League...
1 Phoenix Warriors
3 Lion Warriors
6 Line Elves
3 Rerolls
8 Fan Factor
I like this better!!!
The deal on Fan Factor is kinda better.
I need the 3 Rerolls though!!!
I can live with 10 players to start...
I just have to gamble on getting Gold, to fill out my Roster to get 11 players...
Comments welcome, I have broad shoulders, be truthful!
Old_Man_Monkey - Dec 16, 2003 - 08:53 AM
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Just two observations:
a. if you think the Shadow Forge HE team looks good, you will REALLY like Phig's Miniatures' "Black Widows" team that is soon to be released;
b. your team looks heavy on position players - field at least a full 11, the position players can come later and level up faster when they get there . . .
Just my thoughts - have fun!
-OMM
Doubleskulls - Dec 16, 2003 - 09:07 AM
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SuM wrote:
Because of the High Point Cost, I could only fielded 10 High Elves...
I hope that wasn't a starting team because you have to have 11 players.
SuM - Dec 16, 2003 - 09:15 AM
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What, what...WHAT!!!
Is that a rule???
If so, could you please direct me to the ruling in the LRB???
Like a page??
Doubleskulls - Dec 16, 2003 - 09:21 AM
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LRB pp17 "your team must have at least 11 players"
SuM - Dec 16, 2003 - 09:45 AM
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ok...
Thank you very much Doubleskulls!!!!
I changed things for the 10th time now...heheheeeeee...
I think I have it now...
Starter Roster is now done...
1 Phoenix Warrior
2 Lion Warriors
8 Line Elves
11 Total now...
2 Rerolls
8 Fan Factor
Doubleskulls - Dec 16, 2003 - 10:15 AM
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Given that you are playing in a bashy league I'd not recommend starting with 2 Lion Warriors. Dragon warriors are more durable and having block helps a lot.
neoliminal - Dec 16, 2003 - 10:56 AM
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IMO, the secret to winning with High Elves is dodging with ReRolls. Start with as many RRs as you can, and dodge away from opponents as much as possible.
SuM - Dec 17, 2003 - 12:08 PM
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I feel that the 2 Lion Warriors should be fine...
Our League it is well mixed, 16 of us, assortment of teams...
I'm definitely doing a "Air Game"...
IMHO, HE with their higher Armor is better then the WEs... WarDancers are 1 point of speed better with 7 Armor across the board... NO Thanks
Zombie - Dec 17, 2003 - 12:22 PM
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The real strength of wood elves compared to high elves is not their extra MA, but rather their extra skills. Their blitzers have two extra skills (dodge and jump up) and their catchers have one (dodge).
However, now that high elves get 4 catchers, it's harder to tell which team is better. They're probably pretty equal right now.
Mestari - Dec 18, 2003 - 02:59 AM
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I suppose you mean Leap there.
Anyhow, I'm a firm believer in starting elf teams with mostly line-elves. At AG4 they can do the positional player chores pretty well, and thus forcing most of your initial SPP's on line-elves should give you a strong, even lineup when you've been able to afford the positional players. And I'm not even mentioning the good side of having the extra rerolls.
And definitely no throwers in a beginning elf team! One or two blitzers at most, perhaps replace them with Catchers for the high elves.
And neo talks the truth: dodge a lot and don't let them hit you! Although I remember certain Douglas from the bbowl-l mailing list who often talked about how to play high elves as a bashy team, so you could try an alternative route too.
SuM - Mar 23, 2004 - 08:29 AM
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Bashy High Elves...Hmmmmm...
Interesting...
Our League is on the Horizon...
Still thinking, what roster set up I should use...
I played last week, in a scrimmage against a Lizard man team, and I held my own against him with a 2 Lion, 1 Phoenix and 8 Line Elves, 2 Re-rolls, 8 Fan Factor..
We have a Tournie coming up, and I believe I will use that combo, but in our league, I'm changing things slightly...
League Roster:
1 Lion, 1 Phoenix and 9 Line Elves, 3 Re-rolls and 5 Fan Factor...
Fan factor comes and goes, but 100,000 for Rerolls is too steep..
Doubleskulls - Mar 23, 2004 - 08:36 AM
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FF should be higher... like 7+. TBH I much prefer starting with Dragon's over lions. Lions hog spps - once they are on the team hardly anyone else scores - and they are quite capable of scoring against mid TR teams too.
SuM - Mar 23, 2004 - 09:02 AM
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DS,
Not to be a wise guy...
Could you show me a roster that you recommend???
Tides are shifting in our League, from last season, the Agile coachs are going Bashy and bashies are going Agile...
I'm going from Zons to High Elves... I need as much help as I can get...
Doubleskulls - Mar 23, 2004 - 09:12 AM
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I'd start with
A) 1 Dragon, 1 Phoenix, 9 Line, 2 RR, FF9
OR
B) 2 Dragon, 9 line, 2 RR, FF7
First off you buy the apoth, then follow that up with the 2nd dragon & phoenix(es). Lion Warriors are bought thereafter - and don't replace any line elves unless necessary to have 11 players.
Basic tactics are that line elf picks up the ball and passes to thrower/another lineelf to get the easy SPP. This means all your Line elves should get to their 1st skill fairly quickly and provide a solid bedrock to add your remaining positional players too. Also having Av8 across the board means you are less suspectible to being bashed.
SuM - Mar 23, 2004 - 10:58 AM
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I will take your advice...
Thank you very much...
I'm gonna take the 2 Dragon Warrior Combo...
Your Logic makes soooooo much sense, its not even funny...
I'm imagining if the Dragon Warriors roll a level up on Movement, I might not even buy a Lion Warrior...
He/ she wouldn't be equal to a Lion Warrior, he/ she would be a heck of lot better...
A Line Elf leveling up on Movement, would make them equal to Dragon Warrior.
This has sooooooooooo much potential, it ain't funny...
I need the Elves' statline tho, the way I roll 1-3s...
My Dice Rolling was my Zons' Demise....
smeborg - Mar 24, 2004 - 12:35 PM
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The Dingly Dell Hair Salon (my pro-Elf team) are holding their own just fine against bashy teams.
They suffered a death in their first match against Humans (still won the match), lost badly to Norse, drew with Orcs and Ogres (4 Ogres with Block...).
I find they are better at pulling off high risk plays than other starting AG sides (cheap Linelves mean one more Re-roll, Blitzers and Catchers have good starting skills).
Casualty distribution has probably been fortunate - one death per match, basically, for which the Apoth has worked.
Roster growth is slow - still only 12 players including just 1 Catcher after 4 matches - some risk of going pear-shaped over the next few games. If they get through another 4 or 5 matches without excessive damage, they will be quite resilient. Last time I ran a pro-Elf side (short league) they suffered exactly the problem I now fear - after a few good matches, it was as though the roster refused to grow...
These guys are AV7, so HEs or DEs should survive OK. I suggest you should take Block as the first skill on your Linemen - once you have 2 or 3 of these, it makes quite a difference, and always put just 3 rookie Linemen on the line of scrimmage (your sacrificial lambs).
Hope this helps.
Cheers
Smeborg the Fleshless
SuM - Mar 25, 2004 - 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Roster growth is slow - still only 12 players
This is not a bad thing here where I play...
A lot of the Veteran Coaches do this on purpose, keeping their players at a lower amount...
And when playing against a Naive Coach, they receive a Handicap roll, cuz the other coach has a Higher Team Rating w/ 16 player... and the Vet has 12 Players..
SCELF - Apr 14, 2004 - 10:43 AM
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As I have entered the mid-season with my Pro Elves I have found the basy teams picking up Mighty Blow are absolutly desimating my Armor and making it look like paper.
And loosing 5 to Cas in one game is not alot of fun, especially when 2 ain't ever commin back. You may say luck of the dice for the other coach, you may say why didn't you dodge more. Well I would agree but he still gets 16 blitzs:). Course, the rolls he was rolling he would have killed 5 dwarves too.
Back to the subject:
At any rate. The extra AV in a long term league (12+ games) I think is going to do you better than the lowever cost line elves.
SiC Elf
AUSSIE - Apr 26, 2004 - 01:42 PM
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Quote:
your team looks heavy on position players - field at least a full 11, the position players can come later and level up faster when they get there . . .
My own preference for high elves starting a league is to go heavy on the position players particulary lion warriors as below.
4 Lion warriors
7 Line elves
1 RR
1 Apoc
9 FF
i prefer to have the extra mobility that the lion warriors afford your team, your opponet quite often plays the maiming game on these players thats why i opt for the Apoc to start. i admit that this does deprive your line elves of all the skills initially but it generally evens up after 6-7 games as the lion warriors are always marked, so line elves have to exploit the gaps.
hope this is of some use to you but remember everyone has a differing style of play so play what suits you and try and experiment with as many combination s as possible till you get the one thats just right.
Zombie - Apr 26, 2004 - 03:35 PM
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Problem is, your starting roster is worth 1040k!
AUSSIE - Apr 27, 2004 - 12:43 PM
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Zombie wrote:
Problem is, your starting roster is worth 1040k!
Quote:
Problem is, your starting roster is worth 1040k!
opps meant 5 FF 
Zombie - Apr 27, 2004 - 06:10 PM
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Never, ever start a team with less than 8 FF. Especially an elf team!
SuM - Apr 28, 2004 - 09:26 AM
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I personally like the starting out with the 2 Dragon Warriors...
What should be the Dragon Warrior's 1st level up skill?
1. "Catch' to become the replacement Lion Warrior?? (Not even fielding a LW at all. Hmmm... almost is an option.)
- or -
2. "Dodge" to become a more balanced Blitzer???
_________________________________________________________
With a whole Roster of Line Elves and 2 Dragon Warriors, should their (The Line Elves) 1st level up skill be "Block", "Dodge" or something else????
"Block" seems the best option!!!
**Please Note:
Even teams, that try to avoid the LOS, they still have to face the facts of Blood Bowl.
They still have to face "Playing Smash Mouth Football" with the opposing team, and still have to slug it out, you can only avoid it for so long...
Zombie - Apr 28, 2004 - 10:17 AM
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Dodge makes for a better catcher than catch, especially with AG4.
Doubleskulls - Apr 28, 2004 - 10:47 AM
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Dodge, leap, tackle or strip ball are the best choices IMO. Doubles should go on Dauntless or Guard, maybe Mighty Blow if you league is very bash light.
SuM - Apr 28, 2004 - 04:52 PM
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Well, from the Fall league... Winter we had a break...
The Agile Team Coaches are switching to bashy teams.. and vice versa...
Myself, Amazons to High Elves... I need the higher Agile, cuz my skill rolls are so bad...
So the way I'm seeing it... from hearing people talk, it is gonna be balanced with bashy and dodgey, again... A nice spread of all the teams...
SuM - Sep 30, 2004 - 05:01 PM
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Hmmmmmmmm...
Our league has started.
My Schedule is 80% Bashy Teams...
I knew it... I just knew it...
Not a Problem though...
All I know is 2 of the teams I must face are Dwarves... I guess because all the Bashy Teams, I had better go "Block" Skill 1st...
Then Side Step and Jump up...
Ethrylain - Oct 01, 2004 - 03:03 AM
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Do you got the URL of thei website, so I can have a look at them?
SuM - Oct 01, 2004 - 08:24 AM
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Ethrylain wrote:
Do you got the URL of thei website, so I can have a look at them?
http://www.bampf.com/store/bloodbowl2/MainMenu.asp
Is the URL...
Bampf is the man, he is the Webmaster of our site..
My Team is the Ho-Ho-Hoes...
Look through the whole site, great software for purchase if interested...
Spazzfist - Oct 01, 2004 - 09:15 AM
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Zombie wrote:
The real strength of wood elves compared to high elves is not their extra MA, but rather their extra skills.
While I would agree, that the extra skills do make a HUGE difference to the WE team, the MA is not to be underestimated to be sure! I mean how many times have any of even wished that we could "go for it" just one more time? 
Also just because the elf teams have lower AV than the Punchy teams, does not mean that you should not take the fight to them! Use your high MA and AG to team up on the opposing team, making those two dice blocks and really suprise them as most of their players are eating turf! I played a very successful Wood Elf team in the Bunker league and what a joy it was to watch the orc coaches' jaws drop as they wre spending they looked at the field of prone orcs! There is a good article about this kind of thing on the Blood Bowl library page. I can't recall the name of it off hand, but it was about playing Wood elves.
So to sum it up - take the fight to them! Don;t get caught in a protracted combat - choose your fights carefully, and give those other teams a nasty surprise!
Spazz
SuM - Oct 18, 2004 - 09:48 AM
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Well we are on the way... and I have to admit and I ain't crying. I might have the toughest Schedule of all the Elf teams.
All the other Elves (6 of us) have to play 3+ Elven teams each.
I play 1, errr rather played 1... The Rest are Bashy, 2 Human and 2 Lizardmen...
Anyways...
By my schedule, looks like the skills I should taking.
In this order:
"Block"
"Tackle", "Guard" on a Doubles
Then Dodge.
Throwing others in is a good I dea too...
Like "Sure Hands" to Throwers.
"Side Step" to Catchers.
Tough start in this season's League...
My Elves are developing slow.