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Rules Questions - Pro re-roll question...
NodrogN - Mar 23, 2003 - 09:57 PM
Post subject: Pro re-roll question...
The Pro rule in the LRB reads:
Once per team turn, a Pro is allowed to re-roll any one dice roll he has made. However, before the re-roll may be made, his coach must roll a dice. On a roll of 4, 5 or 6 the re-roll may be made. On a roll of 1, 2 or 3 the original result stands and may not be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll...
I take this to mean that I can't try to use my pro skill and, when it fails, use a team re-roll instead. Can I, however, use a team re-roll to take the 'coach' roll again, which might then lead to getting the pro re-roll...
Sorry if this is blindingly clear somewhere in the rules and I missed it...
The best to you all...
GORDON
AnthonyTBBF - Mar 23, 2003 - 11:21 PM
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You can never re-roll anything more than once, so you would either have to use the re-roll or Pro, but not both.
Bevan - Mar 23, 2003 - 11:26 PM
Post subject: Pro and team rerolls
You're right, you can't use a team reroll for a roll where Pro has been used and failed.
However, you can use a team reroll for (almost) anything a player does and this inlcudes the Pro roll. So if the Pro roll is 1-3, you can use a team reroll to try Pro again. If you get 4-6 then your Pro has succeeded and you get to reroll whatever you were trying to do in the first place. If you get 1-3 again then you just wasted your team reroll.
Just remember you can't make any roll more than twice and if you use a skill like dodge, pass or Pro to get a reroll then you can't use a team reroll for the same thing.
In general if a failed roll means a tunrover and you have a team reroll available it is better to use the team reroll rather than Pro. Use Pro for events that do not cause turnovers when they fail (or when you are out of rerolls). Since armour and injury can't be rerolled this mainly limits Pro to blocks where you need better than a pushback and Big Guys who can't use team rerolls anyway.
smeborg - Mar 24, 2003 - 06:49 AM
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Bevan - I can't agree with your interpretation, I'm afraid.
The LRB says (under the Pro skill on page 36): "On a roll of 1,2, or 3 the original result stands and may NOT be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll."
That's pretty clear, I think.
Cheers
Smeborg the Fleshless
skummy - Mar 24, 2003 - 07:20 AM
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Smeborg: The Pro roll can be rerolled. The original result stands and cannot be rerolled, since you can't use a team reroll on a skill you have rolled twice already.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 24, 2003 - 07:30 AM
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smeborg wrote:
Bevan - I can't agree with your interpretation, I'm afraid.
The LRB says (under the Pro skill on page 36): "On a roll of 1,2, or 3 the original result stands and may NOT be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll."
Smeborg the Fleshless
Smeborg,
Bevan and Skummy are right ... you can use the team re-roll to re-roll the 1,2,3 for the the use of Pro .... since this is not effecting the original result, the above text you quoted doesn't prohibit this.
It a good tactic when you have a player with Pro and want to try and save the team reroll for a later action in the turn.
Galak
ponkavitch - Mar 24, 2003 - 06:14 PM
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while I can understand how you might think that I disagree because team re-rolls can only be used "for an action carried out by a player" and I don't think pro is an action. now my question about pro is can it be used to re-reoll a bone head or realy stupid roll?
GalakStarscraper - Mar 24, 2003 - 06:19 PM
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ponkavitch wrote:
while I can understand how you might think that I disagree because team re-rolls can only be used "for an action carried out by a player" and I don't think pro is an action. now my question about pro is can it be used to re-reoll a bone head or realy stupid roll?
First ... Pro is DEFINITELY an action, so you can reroll it.
And yes Pro definitely can be used on Bonehead and Really Stupid and for Treeman rolling to stand up.
Galak
AnthonyTBBF - Mar 24, 2003 - 06:52 PM
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Well, you are both half right. Pro is not an action, but the quote
Quote:
"for an action carried out by a player"
is badly worded and is meant to mean using skills etc. Referring to Pro as an Action is confusing.
smeborg - Mar 24, 2003 - 08:55 PM
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Hi guys -
The LRB prohibition (against re-rolling a failed Pro roll) seems like very plain English to me.
As I may be missing the point, please could you give me a clear (step by step) example of Re-rolling the Pro roll?
Thanks
Smeborg the Fleshless
NodrogN - Mar 24, 2003 - 09:30 PM
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The wording wasn't very clear to me (as someone who has never played, admittedly). The clause 'the original result stands and may not be re-rolled blah blah blah.' for me (a language teacher) broke down as 'the original result (being the bad roll which wanted to be pro-ed) stands and (that same bad original result) may not be re-rolled blah blah blah...'
Because it didn't specifically point out that the coach roll couldn't be re-rolled, I was unsure...
Thinking about it further, I'm still confused. In all the other GW games I've played, the rulebook is reminds you about not being allowed to re-roll a re-roll whenever the event seems even remotely possible. I have a feeling that smeborg might be right, but it just didn't feel right...
Anyhow, thanks for muddying the waters more...=9
Bread...
GORDON
AnthonyTBBF - Mar 24, 2003 - 10:07 PM
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Your not re-rolling a re-roll, your re-rolling the roll to see if Pro works or not (can I say "roll" a few more times? 
)
destro - Mar 24, 2003 - 11:56 PM
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I would have to agree with smeborg on this one. I dont think you can use a team re-roll on the pro skill.
pro states: on a 1, 2, 3, the original result stands and may not be re-rolled with a skill or team re-roll.
the second rule for skills states: all skills may be used once per action unless stated otherwise.
since pro is a skill and skills can only be used once per action, how do you justify saying it can be re-rolled with a team re-roll? I don't know of any other skill that gives you a re-roll and you can use a team re-roll on for the same action. its like the dodge skill. you don't role the dodge skill and then if you fail, re-roll the dodge skill with a team re-roll.
Doubleskulls - Mar 25, 2003 - 02:34 AM
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smeborg wrote:
As I may be missing the point, please could you give me a clear (step by step) example of Re-rolling the Pro roll?
Say my player with Pro is making a catch roll. He requires 3+.
1st roll '1' - failure. I decide to use Pro and fail ( 
).
I cannot use a TRR to reroll the Catch roll - because I've already tried to use Pro.
I may use a TRR to reroll the Pro roll, which I do and make it ( 
). This means I can reroll the catch roll, but roll another '1' and fail anyway. Bloody typical.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 25, 2003 - 06:29 AM
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destro wrote:
I would have to agree with smeborg on this one. I dont think you can use a team re-roll on the pro skill.
Pro is a skill just like any other skill ... you can reroll using Dauntless for instance ... Pro is no different. Everything that one of your players does can be rerolled expect Armour and Injury rolls and that's because those items specifically say they cannot be used.
Keep in mind that at the point you roll for Pro, you are NOT rerolling the original result. That comes later.
So the order of operation are:
1) I go to block and get double skulls.
2) I decide to use Pro, and roll a 1.
3) Now at this point the original result has still not been rerolled and Pro is just another skill, so I use a team reroll to reroll the Pro roll, and get a 4 which means that I can now reroll the blocking attempt.
4) I reroll the blocking attempt and get 2 pushes and carry on with my turn.
The original result was only rerolled once by the sequence. I used Block dice so it would be clear that this was true. If the Pro skill use had failed the "original result would stand", but I am able to use a team reroll on my Pro skill just like I can on Dauntless to try and get it to work.
Hope this makes more sense.
Galak
SBG - Mar 25, 2003 - 08:18 AM
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Just to make sure I interpret this the right way Galak:
Boris, my dumb a** minotaur, has to Block that stinky Black Orc Bloker who thought it was a good idea to mingle with the cowhead;
He rolls Double skulls;
Since he has Pro, he uses it and rolls a 1;
There's a Leader on the pitch, so he can use a re-roll on his pro roll and gets a 4;
He rolls Double POW's
Piles on to break the AV;
Rolls Double 6 and another 6 to teach that BOB a good lesson!
Is that correct ?
Fred
GalakStarscraper - Mar 25, 2003 - 01:33 PM
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Concordia wrote:
Just to make sure I interpret this the right way Galak:
Boris, my dumb a** minotaur, has to Block that stinky Black Orc Bloker who thought it was a good idea to mingle with the cowhead;
He rolls Double skulls;
Since he has Pro, he uses it and rolls a 1;
There's a Leader on the pitch, so he can use a re-roll on his pro roll and gets a 4;
He rolls Double POW's
Piles on to break the AV;
Rolls Double 6 and another 6 to teach that BOB a good lesson!
Is that correct ?
Fred
Yup, the entire sequence you described is perfectly legal with the current LRB 2.0 rules, and yes that will teach that BOB a lesson.
Galak
AnthonyTBBF - Mar 25, 2003 - 03:35 PM
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You forgot the part where my Dirty Player comes and gives that Mino a good kicking!
skummy - Mar 25, 2003 - 03:39 PM
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But Anthony - he was Piling On your Dirty Player!
ponkavitch - Mar 26, 2003 - 10:43 PM
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Now my question is if the roll was that important why didn't you use the TRR in the first place?
Darkson - Mar 27, 2003 - 12:21 AM
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Perhaps because they wanted to make an action later in their turn which they didn't have a skill re-roll for? For example, maybe making a short pass with a catcher or something like that?
In some cases, it might be better to try the Pro and save the TRR. Doesn't always work though (speaking from bitter experience here).
jejaatin - May 07, 2003 - 06:18 AM
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I just wanted to point out one tiny factor that has been bothering me in this pro reroll and TRR issue. I don't deny that these arguments about rerolling the pro-roll wouldn't be correct, but if we look more closely on the LRB 2.0 it says "Once per team turn, a Pro is allowed to re-roll any one dice roll he has made. However, before the re-roll may be made, his coach must roll a dice. On a roll of 4, 5 or 6 the re-roll may be made." Okay this is quite clear: Pro-player is allowed to re-roll one dice roll he has made. Then it get's complicated: However, blablaa, his COACH must roll a dice.
See my point?
I assume that we know the differences between the dice rolls made by the players and the dice rolls made by the coach. When a player uses a skill he is allowed to use a team re-roll to re-roll that dice roll. Again LRB says:"A coach may use a team re-roll to re-roll a dice roll for an action carried out by a player in their own team during their own team turn." So when using TRR the coach is using it for an action carried out by a player. But when the coach rolls a dice i.e. kick off-results etc, the TRR is unavailable.
So here we must choose, whether the coach is the one rolling the roll to see if the pro-skill can be used, and ergo TRR couldn't be used to re-roll that die roll, or it is actually the player rolling the pro-roll to see if he can re-roll the original roll (which is not the case in LRB) and ergo he could get the coach use the TRR for his pro-roll.
I think that we should see the difference between the rolls made by the COACH and the rolls made by the players (which are also actually made by the coach, but probably you understand what I'm saying) on the field.
What sayst thou?
GalakStarscraper - May 07, 2003 - 08:33 AM
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I sayst that the coach has diddly squat to do with a player's skill that caused him to become a Pro, and that it is clearly the player rolling this.
If the coach has the Pro skill ... I'd agree ... but he doesn't so clearly this is a case of the player making the Pro skill roll. Which means it can be rerolled with a team reroll.
Galak
Fozzybear76 - May 07, 2003 - 09:21 AM
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This is really a silly arguement. If you have a team re-roll, why would not use that before the pro roll. The only reason that I see for using a Pro re-roll is for Big Guys, who cannot use a team re-roll, and when you are out of the team rerolls for the half.
skummy - May 07, 2003 - 10:06 AM
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You could try to do it if you have a long series of very questionable rolls to make. Say the only way you can score is to have your 3 AG pro beastman hand off the ball to your agility gimped Chaos Warrior, who still needs to go for it twice and dodge to get to the end zone before the half ends. The Beastman rolls a 1 when he's trying to get to the CW. Using Pro on the GFI is actually a smart move in this situation, as you're almost certainly going to need the reroll for a chance at a score.
Melifaxis - May 07, 2003 - 10:11 AM
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Great example!
Dave - May 07, 2003 - 01:17 PM
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yeah roll enough 4+ and no one needs TR (look at my wardancer leap in your cage and fall .. 4+ .. push back and strip ball your ball carrier.)
it saves TR
Old_Man_Monkey - May 07, 2003 - 01:20 PM
Post subject:
Quote:
It a good tactic when you have a player with Pro and want to try and save the team reroll for a later action in the turn.
Galak:
I think your sequence is correct in the last post, but earlier, it looked as if you were recommending it as a way of saving the team reroll for later in the turn. If I'm following you correctly, wouldn't the team reroll already have been used during this sequence and therefore be unavailable? And if so, it may be a high price to pay unless the particular move for that player is critical.
dwarfcoach - May 07, 2003 - 02:23 PM
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That is exactly as I thought it worked, glad there is someone out there with sufficiant command of the English language to make clear that which until now has only made sense in my head.....
Darkson - May 07, 2003 - 02:28 PM
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Fozzybear76 wrote:
This is really a silly arguement. If you have a team re-roll, why would not use that before the pro roll. The only reason that I see for using a Pro re-roll is for Big Guys, who cannot use a team re-roll, and when you are out of the team rerolls for the half.
Howabout my 4 vamps all needing to use their Pro in one turn to get the ball (dodge, gaze, block and GFI iirc). Couldn't have pulled off the play without it.
dwarfcoach - May 07, 2003 - 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Galak:
I think your sequence is correct in the last post, but earlier, it looked as if you were recommending it as a way of saving the team reroll for later in the turn. If I'm following you correctly, wouldn't the team reroll already have been used during this sequence and therefore be unavailable? And if so, it may be a high price to pay unless the particular move for that player is critical.
The idea would be to use 'pro' as an alternative to using a Team Reroll, but in the unfortunate circumstance of Pro failing you can still save yourself from a turnover...
GalakStarscraper - May 07, 2003 - 07:42 PM
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dwarfcoach wrote:
The idea would be to use 'pro' as an alternative to using a Team Reroll, but in the unfortunate circumstance of Pro failing you can still save yourself from a turnover...
Exactly. Finally got the time to program team reroll use on the Pro skill into the PBeM tool.
But yup ... use Pro to save the reroll ... the reroll can save you if you really need to use to on the Pro roll. But the point was that Pro would have saved your team reroll to begin with.
Galak
Old_Man_Monkey - May 07, 2003 - 08:52 PM
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Quote:
But the point was that Pro would have saved your team reroll to begin with.
Yes, but this long thread began with a discussion of what could take place when a Pro roll was failed.
dwarfcoach - May 12, 2003 - 05:02 PM
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Well not exactly, it began with a guy (NodrogN) double checking his understanding of the rules for Pro:
"I take this to mean that I can't try to use my pro skill and, when it fails, use a team re-roll instead. Can I, however, use a team re-roll to take the 'coach' roll again, which might then lead to getting the pro re-roll... "
To cut a long story short, he was right!!!
jejaatin - May 16, 2003 - 01:14 AM
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I still think that you can't re-roll coach rolls, which the roll to see if the pro can re-roll his roll IMHO is. After all, can you use TRR for any other coach roll? No. Wizards are members of the coaching staff. Can they use TRR? I say no. In light of this discussion people probably think that they can. I very strongly support the idea that TRR can only be used to reroll something A PLAYER has done, not something a member of the coaching staff has done. But then again, maybe I'm just making a simple game more complicated by thinking like this and should just remain silent.
Thought that one again... naah..I'll keep on going...
GalakStarscraper - May 16, 2003 - 05:49 AM
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jejaatin wrote:
I still think that you can't re-roll coach rolls, which the roll to see if the pro can re-roll his roll IMHO is.
Pro is NOT a coach roll. Its no different than Dauntless or Hypnotic Gaze and you can reroll those.
Arguing the call, apothecary use, and wizard spells are coach rolls. Pro is a player skill roll ... there is no doubt at all about this.
Galak
mikeyc222 - May 16, 2003 - 07:46 AM
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jejaatin wrote:
I still think that you can't re-roll coach rolls, which the roll to see if the pro can re-roll his roll IMHO is.
i see your point because the wording of the skill does say that the "coach must roll" but i think you're missing the point because of yet another example of bad wording in the BB rulebook(hey galak, any chance we can add clarification of this to the hotlist?).
pro is a skill. PERIOD.
a skill is something done/used by a player. all things done/used by a player can be rerolled(except armour/injury as galak pointed out). PERIOD.
GalakStarscraper - May 16, 2003 - 11:21 AM
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mikeyc222 wrote:
(hey galak, any chance we can add clarification of this to the hotlist?).
I doubt it for this reason, its not just Pro.
Dauntless say coach rolls, so do Shadowing, Tentacles, and Sprint. ie, its not special wording just on Pro, it just a player being too dang literal for his own good.
If jejaatin was correct ... than I cannot reroll a GFI roll from using Sprint because Sprint says the coach rolls the dice for the 3rd GFI when using Sprint. This is BEYOND the edge for trying to slice hairs with the rules wordings.
Bottom line .. no its doesn't need to be on the Hot List. Pro is a skill with its own special dice roll and as such that special dice roll can be rerolled when used just like Dauntless, Leap, and Hypnotic Gaze.
Galak
mikeyc222 - May 16, 2003 - 11:50 AM
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yep, good point galak.
all you guys got that now?!
jejaatin - May 19, 2003 - 05:39 AM
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Okay, I see your point. I was too fixed on the pro skill only, so I didn't see the big picture. Now I just have to humble myself and contemplate my sillyness. It's difficult to admit being wrong, but... "sigh", yeah all skills are rerollable.
Indigo - May 20, 2003 - 03:52 AM
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amen to that
now, who thinks forgetting to roll a bonehead should be an IP?
only kidding, please dont hurt me