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Rules Questions - When to use Apoth?
edwolf - Apr 14, 2003 - 12:18 PM
Post subject: When to use Apoth?
I was wondering when you have to declare use of the Apoth when someone is injured/killed. In our league we allow you to wait until the end of the game if you want, BUT after re-reading the LRB it looks like you have to declare use of the Apoth when the player is injured.
Any input would be helpful.
Melifaxis - Apr 14, 2003 - 12:25 PM
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You're supposed to do so right after the injury rolls are completed.
fe2mike - Apr 14, 2003 - 12:31 PM
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Quote:
You're supposed to do so right after the injury rolls are completed.
Does that mean you roll before or after you find out the effects of the serious injury as far as niggler, -1 ST etc.?
Agentrock - Apr 14, 2003 - 12:32 PM
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By the rules, after the injury roll is made.
Our house league rules have a stipulation that you can choose to use your apothecary on a badly or serious injury after the player has been moved to the dugout (and after several turns or even at the end of the game) but the healed player goes to the reserves box instead...that way if a player dies you can use your apothecary on them and take the serious injury roll...if not then you can heal a single serios injury when the game ends.
mikeyc222 - Apr 14, 2003 - 12:34 PM
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use when the injury is caused because it leaves the player face up on the field.
Agentrock - Apr 14, 2003 - 12:44 PM
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Has there been any word as to how the new proposed apothecary rules may work? (where the apothecary heals players once they return to the dugout only...allowing healings of crowd injuries but not allowing the player to stay on the field for that drive)
snew - Apr 14, 2003 - 12:53 PM
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fe2mike wrote:
Quote:
You're supposed to do so right after the injury rolls are completed.
Does that mean you roll before or after you find out the effects of the serious injury as far as niggler, -1 ST etc.?
We do it after we see what the effects of the injury are. That's part of the SI, after-all, isn't it? He's SI with a ST-1 or an SI with a niggle, it's not just an SI.
Melifaxis - Apr 14, 2003 - 03:08 PM
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fe2mike wrote:
Quote:
You're supposed to do so right after the injury rolls are completed.
Does that mean you roll before or after you find out the effects of the serious injury as far as niggler, -1 ST etc.?
Rolls=plural so your 2d6, d6 (if needed), and 2d6 again (if needed)
So after you find out it's a Niggling Injury you decide.
Gattolardo - Apr 14, 2003 - 04:25 PM
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Actually the LRB states the Apoth MUST be used the as soon as the Injury is caused, as the player stays on the field.
As the LRB simply says that in league games the opposing coach MUST roll to see what kind of Serious Injury it is, but doesn't say when he must roll, we can assume the roll may be as soon as the serious injury comes up.
So:
1) roll for armor
2) if passed, roll for injury
3) if result is 10-12, roll for casualty
4) if result is 4-5, roll for serious injury
5) decide to use apoth or not, if yes, roll for apoth
6) resolve injury or leave player on the field.
any other interpretation may be house ruling 
Cheers
Rob
Mordredd - Apr 14, 2003 - 04:35 PM
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The way the LRB reads when you suffer a serious injury you roll for it on the SI table immediately. So you do get to find out what sort of SI it is before you decide on using the apothecary. But you have to decide straight after, no waiting until the end of the game in case of a fatality.
I prefer coaches in our league to place players who have been saved by the apothecary in their dugouts, ready for the next drive. It just seems the right thing to do. I doubt any medic is going to be stupid enough to run out onto the pitch with a BB game in progress. 
Gattolardo - Apr 14, 2003 - 04:41 PM
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I agree with you 100%, Mordredd
But as long as the official rules don't change, that'll be a house rule 
Unless all the medics are ogres..................... 
Bevan - Apr 14, 2003 - 04:49 PM
Post subject: When to use apothecary
If several players are injured in the same event, e.g. Wizard fireball or Multiple Block you can assume the injuries all happen simultaneously, even though you roll for armour and injury for one player then the other. So you can wait until all the bodies stop falling and see who has the worst injury before the apothecary steps in to heal one of them.
snew - Apr 14, 2003 - 05:34 PM
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So where do you put Regen? Do you roll it before you use the apoth?
Mordredd - Apr 15, 2003 - 04:25 AM
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Regenerate is meant to be done at the end of the drive, i.e. before the next kick off or at the end of a half.
Therefore it's injury - apothecary - regenerate.
I always roll my regenerate immediately to avoid confusing the players who have not yet rolled with those that have and failed.
Redfang - Apr 15, 2003 - 07:19 AM
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We always roll for Serious Injuries at the end of the game. We are a relatively new league, but with players who have almost all been playing since third edition, and all use this rule this way (even though we come from different groups originally)
Is that again one of the things that changed with the introduction of the LRB without it ever being announced, or is it just something all of us have weirdly interpretted wrong?
R
Agentrock - Apr 15, 2003 - 08:32 AM
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Mordredd wrote:
I always roll my regenerate immediately to avoid confusing the players who have not yet rolled with those that have and failed.
You can also have any players that have not Regenerated be placed face up on their backs...ones that have failed would be turned over...
snew - Apr 15, 2003 - 09:09 AM
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Mordredd wrote:
Regenerate is meant to be done at the end of the drive, i.e. before the next kick off or at the end of a half.
Therefore it's injury - apothecary - regenerate.
I always roll my regenerate immediately to avoid confusing the players who have not yet rolled with those that have and failed.
Do you make the decision to use the Apothecary before you roll the Regen? I certainly understand rolling it immediately. I'll tend to forget who's what also.
Mordredd - Apr 15, 2003 - 09:20 AM
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I used to play it your way Redfang. It's only since the current season started that I've encountered players wanting to roll it straight off. It could be one of those 'secret' changes in the LRB, I'd have to check my old handbooks. I suspect that it's a misinterpretation based on the injury table being on the red summary card introduced with Death Zone. Makes it seem like it belongs with the post match sequence.
My system for casualties is:
left side of the injuries dugout = badly hurt
right side of the injuries dugout = serious injury
lying down in the injuries dugout = dead, dead, dead!
Rolling regenerate straight off is just so much simpler than face up/face down wait till the end of drive.
And yes, you make the decision on the apothecary before rolling regenerate.
Gattolardo - Apr 15, 2003 - 11:39 AM
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Actually I DO remember one edition of the rules where you had to roll injuries at the end of the match...
But on the LRB there is no mention of it....
I guess it's one of thise unspoken changes.....
and honestly, I don't feel like poking thru my old rlebook at all.......
skummy - Apr 15, 2003 - 03:12 PM
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I've been in two leagues that interpreted this in different ways, Redfang. Perhaps this is worthy of putting on the BRRC hotlist? It would certainly speed up player turnover.
GalakStarscraper - Apr 15, 2003 - 04:17 PM
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Redfang wrote:
Is that again one of the things that changed with the introduction of the LRB without it ever being announced, or is it just something all of us have weirdly interpretted wrong?
The latter.
The rules in 3rd edition were EXACTLY the same as they are now.
Get injured ... FULLY figure out what type of injury it was (this includes rolling for the type of Serious Injury) .... decide to use apothecary ... if yes, leave on the field prone ... if not he suffers the injury.
These have been the rules for the last 9 years. .... and no this doesn't need to be a Hot List item ... not because I'm superior, but because this is a very old rule understood by a lot of leagues. Interesting house rules aside, its never been different than the sequence above for almost a decade.
Galak
Redfang - Apr 16, 2003 - 01:57 AM
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Re-read old rulebooks last night and they indeed said the same, so where we all got it from; I don't know...
I guess Mordredd is right about it being a misinterpretation based on the sheets.
Oh well, we know how to do it now, so... 
R
Elan - Apr 16, 2003 - 02:04 AM
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I agree with Gattolardo on the interpretation and sequencing of the LRB rule and can see the point others are making about placing the player in the dug-out, but agree with the LRB that the player should be face up on the pitch for three reasons:
1) can you find a stretcher party insane enough to go onto a pitch mid-game to collect the wounded and dying?
2) An apothecary could get onto the pitch (just as they do in Grid-Iron and Aussie Rules etc) as anyone who messes with one deserves all the grief the guild can lay out - imagine having your own apoth walk out on strike?
3) Have you seen the effect the magic-rag has on Grid-Iron players? I do not know what is in the real-life version but I want some!! In BB the potion is MAGICAL in effect, hence the miracle recovery and the players ability to remain on field.
That's my thoughts anyways. 
Mordredd - Apr 16, 2003 - 04:08 AM
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1) Ogre stretcher bearers! Any decent stadium would have Ogre stretcher bearers! There's no messing with Ogre stretcher bearers. 
2) There are plenty of teams that would 'mess' with an apothecary, and not necessarily the oppositions. Hmm. How about all the undead teams, all the Chaos ones, and especially Dark Elves. And do you think their apothecaries are going on strike? Not a mistake I would want to make .
3) Ok, it's magic, but he'll end up using it on himself more than his teams players. What if it's highly addictive? He'll end up a slave to his own rag .
Gattolardo - Apr 16, 2003 - 05:01 AM
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Gattolardo wrote:
Actually I DO remember one edition of the rules where you had to roll injuries at the end of the match...
Sigh...
dat's the old age getting hold of me 'gain..... 
Gattolardo - Apr 16, 2003 - 05:06 AM
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Mordredd wrote:
..... There are plenty of teams that would 'mess' with an apothecary, and not necessarily the oppositions. Hmm. How about all the undead teams, all the Chaos ones, and especially Dark Elves. And do you think their apothecaries are going on strike? Not a mistake I would want to make
Oi....
are you really SURE about that????? 
Just imagine a DARK ELF apothecary....
a CHAOS apothecary
even try to steal some food form a Halfling!!!!
You sure you'd want to mess up with them...........
(what if a single apoth is, in reality, an uncounted number of "go, heal and die while coming back" orderlies???
Cheers
Rob
Doubleskulls - Apr 16, 2003 - 06:15 AM
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Mordredd wrote:
Regenerate is meant to be done at the end of the drive, i.e. before the next kick off or at the end of a half.
Therefore it's injury - apothecary - regenerate.
I always roll my regenerate immediately to avoid confusing the players who have not yet rolled with those that have and failed.
There are 3 reasons why you should wait until the end of drive before rolling Regen
#1 Its the rules!
#2 It gives more knowledge about available players for the next drive. e.g. If your opponent knows your mummy is coming back, he may delay scoring.
#3 If your opponent is playing undead may be able to cast "Raise the Dead" on a "dead" player before he gets to regenerate.
If you have a problem remembering which have regened then just place the failures prone.
Mordredd - Apr 16, 2003 - 07:41 AM
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In my system (see earlier post above) for keeping track of casualties lying down = dead!! It's no good lying down failed regenerates as well. It is easier for you, and your opponent, to keep track of who has and hasn't if you roll immediately.
#1 Rules can be changed
#2 Potentially yes. However, I have played Undead since the release of 3rd Ed. and have always played in leagues with a relatively large number of Undead teams in them. I have never seen the imminent return of a mummy affect a coaches decisions on the field.
#3 We have always house ruled that you cannot raise an undead player who has regenerate, i.e. the 'already dead but don't know it yet' ones like zombies, mummies etc. This is because when they are 'killed' they are not literally killed, but damaged too badly to continue playing BB. Any necromancer who raised such a player would gain a zombie with DEAD! written in the injury box, and thus be forced to remove him from the roster at the end of the game. Besides, it is silly to be allowed to raise a skeleton as a zombie 
Perhaps these changes to Regenerate could be considered for the BBRC hotlist?
Mordredd - Apr 16, 2003 - 07:46 AM
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Another question then arises.
Do you get to use Raise the dead spell before your opponent decides to use his apothecary?
Is it whoever declares first, or must the necromancer wait his turn?
Is it worth printing a definitive list of what order these things go in in the LRB, just for clarity?
Redfang - Apr 16, 2003 - 07:55 AM
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First the apo, then, if that's not used or if that fails, the Raise the Dead
Gattolardo - Apr 16, 2003 - 08:07 AM
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Redfang wrote:
First the apo, then, if that's not used or if that fails, the Raise the Dead
Right.
And keep in mind that, by the rules, a dead regenerating palyer it's not DEAD until it fails the reg roll.
The rules say that the player is places in the D&I box, and, if the Reg roll is failed, the Injury affects him as normal.
So, no Raise Dead on regenerating players.
"That is not dead hich can eternal lie yet, with strange aeons, even death may die"
Cheers
Rob
Doubleskulls - Apr 17, 2003 - 06:09 AM
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Mordredd wrote:
Do you get to use Raise the dead spell before your opponent decides to use his apothecary?
Raise the Dead is a wizard's spell so may only be cast at the beginning of the player's turn. Therefore the apoth has to go 1st.
According to LRB you do get to raise the dead on players with regeneration. Until the regeneration roll is made the player is dead - so raise the dead still works.
Mordredd - Apr 17, 2003 - 06:22 AM
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Actually no, the LRB does not. It in fact makes no reference to regenerate in the text on necromancers in the wizards section. Furthermore, having just reread the text on regenerate, the wording does tend to support Gattolardo's interpretation. It basically says place the player in the dugout as normal, roll regenerate end of drive, IF he fails he suffers the injury as normal. Therefore he is not dead until he has failed to regenerate.
Doubleskulls - Apr 17, 2003 - 09:17 AM
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I had a good read of all the relevent sections myself and agree its not clear.
LRB pp 36 "If the player is badly hurt, seriously injured or killed, then they are placed in the Dead and Injured Players box in the Dugout as normal. However before the next kick-off takes place (or at the end of the match if that comes first), a dice is rolled for the player to see if he regenerates. On a roll of 1-3 the player suffers the effects of the injury as normal. On a roll of 4-6 the player regenerates and should be moved to the Reserves box in the Dugout."
So I'd say until you make the regenerate roll you are dead.
Raise the dead doesn't mention regenerate at all.
So there is nothing that says you can't raise a player with regen, who hasn't made his roll yet, so I'd say you can.
Mordredd - Apr 26, 2003 - 07:59 AM
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"On a roll of 1-3 the player suffers the effects of the injury as normal" is the important part. It implies that the player has not fully 'suffered' the injury until he has rolled a 1-3 and succumbed or rolled a 4-6 and recovered.
Doubleskulls - Apr 28, 2003 - 06:20 AM
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I'd say the significant bit was "If the player is badly hurt, seriously injured or killed, then they are placed in the Dead and Injured Players box in the Dugout as normal"
Maybe this ought to be in Galak's hot list?
Tutenkharnage - Apr 28, 2003 - 06:47 AM
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The more items on the Hot List, the thicker the rulebooks become. The thicker the rulebooks become, the more exceptions they engender.
Regarding the Apothecary, my league forces the healed player into the Reserves box. It works great for us, and it avoids that silly "I hope I cause a BH because I want that player off the field" syndrome that afflicts so many coaches.
-Chet
SBG - Apr 28, 2003 - 09:27 AM
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I thought it was now official ruling to put the "apothed" player in the reserve box, isn't it ?
Fred
Mordredd - Apr 28, 2003 - 09:51 AM
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I think regenerate was worded this way to ensure that players who succeed are not left on the pitch, like with the apothecary. It represents magical medical intervention vs accelerated natural healing. So the player is placed in the casualties box 'as normal' but does not suffer the injury until after the regenerate roll is failed.
I agree, this most definitely should be on Galak's hot list. I think I have already called for this once already. I think at least a rewording is in order, if not a slight modification to the actual regenerate rule.
snew - Apr 28, 2003 - 10:09 AM
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Concordia wrote:
I thought it was now official ruling to put the "apothed" player in the reserve box, isn't it ?
Fred
No, they can stay on the pitch. You can even apoth a stunned player. Makes an Apothecary a viable weapon during a tournament.
Agentrock - Apr 28, 2003 - 10:11 AM
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Yeah, they stay on the pitch...face up (or prone).