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Rules Questions - BB Annual 2003 and the Chaos Pact mixed race teams rules

dwarfcoach - Sep 25, 2003 - 10:36 AM
Post subject: BB Annual 2003 and the Chaos Pact mixed race teams rules

Hi!

So this may well have been cleared up AGES ago, but please humour me.... Smile

In the rules for the Chaos Pact Team in the allied experimental rules article in the BB annual 03 (specifically page 21) the Dark elves seem to have disappeared from the list of races in the Chaos Pact Team. It is in the original article in BB Mag #3.

As the Annual takes precedence it is important to know if this is just a typo or if it is a 'rules update'.

Anyone know??

Tutenkharnage - Sep 25, 2003 - 12:31 PM
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It's an update. Further updates...umm, I can't remember what was in the Annual off the top of my head, so I'll post the current versions here from the NFL:

Chaos Pact
0-12 Norse Lineman
0-2 Beastman
Allowed races: Orc, Skaven, Goblin, Chaos, Norse
Big Guys (2): Ogre, Minotaur, Troll
Re-rolls: 80,000 each

Old World
0-12 Human Lineman
0-2 Longbeard
Allowed races: Human, Dwarf, Halfling, Wood Elf
Big Guys (2): Ogre, Treeman
Re-rolls: 80,000 each

Lustrian
0-12 Linewoman
0-4 Skink
Allowed races: Amazon, Lizardman, Norse
Big Guys (2): Kroxigor
Re-rolls: 80,000 each

If two Big Guys seems a bit much to you, I suggest you run with 1 Big Guy per team and drop the re-rolls to 70,000 each. But the team will lose quite a bit of flavor, IMO.

-Chet

dwarfcoach - Sep 25, 2003 - 02:34 PM
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Oh right, thanks alot for the clarification. Smile

Aww, so you can't have Dark Elves in the Chaos Pact team now then, right? Bit of a shame ( and makes Jervs example of a chaos pact team at the end of the article seem a bit silly now).

Darkson - Sep 25, 2003 - 04:00 PM
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Ahhh, the joys of GW cut-and-paste Wink

Doubleskulls - Sep 25, 2003 - 04:26 PM
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As Chet said except:

You may hire 1 of each big guy.

Chaos Pact TRR are 90k.
Lustrian Pact TRR are 70k, and they can hire an Ogre.

Tutenkharnage - Sep 26, 2003 - 06:25 AM
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What Doubleskulls has posted is a copy of the Annual rules. The "current rules," if you feel like using them, are as I posted earlier:

* 2 Big Guys total
* 80,000 re-rolls for everyone
* Big Guy lists as written

Life will get easier when GW opens the rumored "Playtesters Vault." But that's not going to happen soon if I'm reading the signals properly.

-Chet

Chris - Sep 26, 2003 - 07:29 AM
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Hmm, I reckon them chaos guys should pay 90k per re-roll, I know evil never works well together! Why else has Alan Rickman and Gary Oldman never been two evil chaps in a film together?

dwarfcoach - Sep 26, 2003 - 07:44 AM
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Well I think it's a shame that the Chaos All-stars can't be re-created Sad

They had a Dark Elf in the team and I had planned to include a couple in my own pact team...

Oh well. So are there any NAF'ers who are runing a Chaos Pact team at the moment? how's it going?

Doubleskulls - Sep 26, 2003 - 08:25 AM
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Tutenkharnage wrote:

What Doubleskulls has posted is a copy of the Annual rules. The "current rules," if you feel like using them, are as I posted earlier:

I was under the impression you were posting your own house rule variant on the Annual list.

AFAIK the annual rules are the last ones published by fanatic.

Or are you giving us a sneek peek at a new experimental list?

Unless something is happening to tone down Big Guys, I'd rather 1 per team.

Tutenkharnage - Sep 26, 2003 - 11:14 AM
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Consider it a sneak peek.

-Chet

GalakStarscraper - Sep 26, 2003 - 03:52 PM
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Tutenkharnage wrote:

Consider it a sneak peek.

-Chet

Footnote ... from the playtesting in the MBBL ... I'm really not sure about the Chaos Pact and Old World teams. I'm thinking 90k rerolls for both teams and even then I question the teams.

The stats these two teams have posted in the MBBL are kinda scary to be honest.

Galak

dwarfcoach - Sep 26, 2003 - 04:03 PM
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Hmm, really? Yeah I did think you could kinda make a pretty unstoppabblel Chaos team (Dark Elf or not).

Well (getting out the fake facial hair which hooks over the ears) if they are made offical then you will see my Chaos Pact team in a couple of tournys next year.... Laughing

fnord23 - Sep 28, 2003 - 05:12 PM
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dwarfcoach wrote:

Well I think it's a shame that the Chaos All-stars can't be re-created Sad

They had a Dark Elf in the team and I had planned to include a couple in my own pact team...

Oh well. So are there any NAF'ers who are runing a Chaos Pact team at the moment? how's it going?

Mine is doing pretty well after 7 (or maybe Cool

games; I'm using the 2nd list
with only 2 beastmen & 2 Big Guys, but I kept the re-rolls at 90k as i didnt realise they had changed.
The Minotaur was a liabliity on offence in the early games; the marauders seemed to do everything early on as well.
Now, the other guys in the league dont want to play me as my gutter runner got VLL on his first skill & then +1 MA on his second --- so he is
a one-turner now. I can concentrate on defensive skills from now on.

sangraal

GalakStarscraper - Sep 29, 2003 - 07:54 AM
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MBBL stats to date:

http://www.blood-bowl.net/MBBL/MBBL_RaceStats.htm

The Chaos Pact and Old World teams have the 2nd and 3rd highest winning percentages in the MBBL as a race with both over 70%. The only race beating them is Amazon and that's because of the 4 coaches that have played the team. 3 of those 4 have been hands down 3 of the top BB coaches in the world (Chet Z., Brian H., and Steve M.) (and the Amazons are a good team also ... but I think the 72% win rate for 'Zons in the MBBL is more coach than team related ... not so with the Pact teams).

Then move to TD and CAS averages:
The Chaos Pact and Old World teams are the only 2 races in the MBBL averaging over 2 TDs per a game.

And in case you are wondering about the Lustrians .... the Lustrian team in my league is 4-0 this season and will very likely be playing in the Championship game for the league in 2 months. Also the Lustrian team as a race has posted the 4th highest CAS per a game stat (2.71) ... behind the following teams (Khemri 3.42/Dwarf 2.93/Chaos Dwarf 2.72)

I very much respect Chet and Milo and their great ideas and contributions to the game, but after all the playtesting in the MBBL, I can honestly say my opinion is that none of the 3 Pact teams work.

Galak

Tutenkharnage - Sep 29, 2003 - 12:50 PM
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The Old World team record is almost entirely the result of one coach...and most of his games were played as a Human team that converted to Old World, not a pure Old World team starting from scratch.

I don't put much stock in the MBBL angle for these teams, sorry. Especially since no one on the MBBL listserv has said, "By Nuffle, these teams are too hard!" Seems to me like good coaches playing good teams...IOW, put Lou and Anthony Watts behind any other bench and you get the same results.

-Chet

Tutenkharnage - Sep 29, 2003 - 12:56 PM
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To expand on my previous message: I'm leery of statements like "these are the only teams above X%" because it would only take one or two losses or bad rounds to completely invalidate that statement. Take the CP MBBL teams as a collective example. They're at a winning percentage of 70.45% right now - in other words, a .500 round would completely invalidate that statement. And that result is more likely than not.

-Chet

GalakStarscraper - Sep 29, 2003 - 01:24 PM
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Sorry ... guess, I should have expanded. Its not just the MBBL stats. I'm seeing reports from other leagues also.

Example FUMBBL, if you take the win percentages of races in FUMBBL (all 15 official LRB and the 9 experimental teams) ... currently its:

Old World 49%
Wood Elf/Lustrian 48%
Chaos Dwarf 47%
Skaven/Amazon 46%
Undead/Chaos Pact/Elf 45%
Lizardmen 44%
Dark Elf/High Elf/Necromantic 42%
Dwarf 41%
Orc/Khemri 40%
Human 39%
Norse 38%
Nurgle's Rotter 37%
Vampire 36%
Chaos 35%
Ogre 34%
Goblin 32%
Halfling 21%

Again ... the Pacts teams are at the top of the report.
So far we've had consistent reports that these 3 races are doing very well in league play. I've seen a lot of different leagues reporting in how well the teams are doing. If there is evidence to the negatives of the team, I'll be the first to be happy to see it. But I've just not seen the evidence so far that suggests that the teams are on the side of too good.

And yes Chet I understand that statistics can be deceptive, but I'm just collecting what I've been seeing. I'm not saying that the axe should be put to the Pact teams, but I do think they need at least one more year of testing to see if they balance out at all.

Galak

dwarfcoach - Sep 29, 2003 - 02:16 PM
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But what can be done to balence them out? Expensive re-rolls only goes so far....

Darkson - Sep 29, 2003 - 02:59 PM
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Maybe they should all get the Creeper's dug-out rule?

http://www.blood-bowl.net/MBBLTeams/UnderworldCreepers.html

Or something along those lines?

Tutenkharnage - Sep 30, 2003 - 11:27 AM
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I'm more concerned about the ease with which Chaos Dwarves, Wood Elves, Dwarves, and Skaven seem to claim so many victories than I am with the mixed-race teams being on that level. Why? Simple. Mixed-race teams can be tweaked without much fuss; the others will raise a big stink, even if it's obvious that they're out of whack. (Same applies to the old Undead.)

As I see it, a number of factors can be used to tweak a team. These include:

* Overall TR
* Position limits
* Skill access
* Re-roll costs
* Special rules (e.g., no Apothecary for Rotter teams)

When looking at results, you have to analyze more than simple wins and losses. For example:

* How much of a role has luck played?
* How good is the coach at the helm?
* What other rules or teams are in play?
* How well can a poor coach do with the same team?
* How well can the same coach do with another team?
* How much variability is acceptable?
* At what point does a team become "too good"?

(It's that last point that causes the most contention, I think. Clearly, some team is going to sit atop the latest tournament results ladder. It's just the way things work.)

Specifically, I don't regard the mixed-race teams as problematic. I understand that some folks do, but I believe this is because they expect the team to struggle "just because," ala Big Guy and Stunty teams. I don't expect any such thing; in the hands of a good coach, I expect each of those teams to be good. They're roughly on par with Human, Norse, and Amazon teams, although they're definitely different than those teams.

How different? Well, that depends on the roster you construct. I know most coaches would say, "Hey, Chaos Pact teams get a Gutter Runner. That's not cool - you can't mix ST4 and AG4." But one of the best teams in Tom's MBBL, the Horde D'Ouevres, is a Chaos Pact team with a Skaven Thrower and an Orc Thrower. My own Chaos Pact team has no Gutter Runner (although I was fortunate enough to roll AG +1 on a Skaven Kicker.) In other words, this team's success is not dictated by the presence of a Gutter Runner, so criticism of the team on this count sounds better than it plays.

(It doesn't hurt the Horde's chances that they're coached by Rich Kelly, either. As I mentioned, many variables determine a team's success. My own team features four AG +1 players and a ST +1 Beastman.)

The trick is setting a level and deciding whether the team meets that criterion or not. Everyone has an opinion on whether Team A is "balanced" or not. Having coached (or coached against) Team A isn't a requirement for having that opinion, but it helps inform that opinion. I am in no great rush to make these teams official, but I've asked my own league mates many times whether they think these teams are too good. These guys (and gal) have faced off against my squad exactly 20 times, but I have yet to hear, "Yes. The team needs to lose one Big Guy." Or, "Yes. The re-rolls need to be pricer." Or, "Yes. The Chaos Pact team shouldn't have access to Skaven." And these are from coaches who would know better, given that my record is 15-5 in the NFL.

In looking at the mixed-race rosters, there are plenty of variable points that can be "dialed down" (or up) to adjust the team's strength. Among them:

* Allowed races
* Big Guys
* Position limits
* Secondary race limits on the base roster
* Re-roll costs
* Special rules

I don't think these teams need the adjustments - if they do, they'd need to be minor to keep the team attractive, which is why I suggested one Big Guy and a 70K re-roll cost. But the less attractive a team gets - whether due to ineptitude (Halfling, Goblin) or difficulty to coach (Khemri) - the better the coaches it attracts. And the better the coaches, the better the winning percentages...so you have to watch your conclusions.

-Chet

kalten - Sep 30, 2003 - 05:17 PM
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mmmm...intresting debate. My view on it is that the teams are unbalanced, but not to a bad extent, no worse than the amazons at least. In tournament play all the races play differently. It seems to me that the balance between league and tourny play still needs to be met for a lot of the races. The original races from the original rulebook all work against each other, but after the new races got added things started to go downhill. I believe it's not too far out, but a few things still need tweaking.

Whilst I'm on the subject of tweaking, why do the mummies in the Khemri team cost more than the mummies in a normal undead team? Same stats, different costs....Chet?

Khaine - Sep 30, 2003 - 06:55 PM
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One question while there are so many Chaos Pact Questions floating around. Can you take two of the same big guy <eg 2 treeman for an old world team> for a team?

Mordredd - Oct 01, 2003 - 03:29 AM
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I would quite like the pact teams with 1 big guy and 70 k re rolls, although I would prefer a more even balance of the 2 main lineman positions. I just don't think that they deserve 2 big guys, not having the disadvantages of the stunty teams.

My guess on the mummies is that when there is more of them they are harder to escape, and therefore more effective. Hence the higher cost. What I would like to know is, which joker gave the Tho-Ra pass?

Tutenkharnage - Oct 01, 2003 - 06:52 AM
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Off Topic: The Mummy has a different price because this is a more accurate price, really. Remember that Khemri, Necromantic, and Vampire teams are intended to replace rather than supplement the old Undead team. If you use all of these side by side in your league, I suggest you bump the Undead team's cost by 10K to equal things.

On Topic: In the posted mixed-race rules from the Annual, you're allowed one of each Big Guy listed. In the revised rules used in the MBBL, I believe Tom is playing two total but one of each. In the NFL, it's two of any combination.

Regarding Big Guys, I started my team with a Troll. I lost that Troll (dead, no regen) in Game #5, by which time I was 5-0. I played the next 12 games without any Big Guys and went 9-3. I picked up a Troll before the Season 2 championship, lost, and lost my next game before buying a Minotaur to complement the Troll. I promptly beat an Ogre team. Just some notes.

-Chet

dwarfcoach - Oct 13, 2003 - 02:22 PM
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Ok then, so what about this tweak to their rules then:

Every 'alien' member of the team (i.e. not the 0-12 or 0-2 baseline choice) has to make a 'so has he turned up this match?' roll. On a 2+ the player turns up but on a roll of a 1 he is missing.

The background to this roll is that it represents the hostility that these 'alien' members of the team feel towards the rest of the guys. This type of player is often isolated from the group because of their race and lack of common ground with the rest of the team and this kind of player is far more likely than any other player apart from a Star to pull what is commonly known as 'a sicky'. Such is life on mixed race teams.....

What this would mean is that players of mixed race teams would have a choice:

a) Hire loads of different races for your team and expect to have at least one or two not turn up at any given game (normally at a crucial time!).

b)Only have one or two different races on the team and develope your 'base race' players to make up for any deficiencies in your line up.

This would really make the team a bit less cohesive, which is what a mixed race team is meant to be. What do you reckon?

EDIT: If you reckon this option is a bit too harsh, the dice could be rolled again at half time, on a 2+ he / they turn up... Or the roll could only be for the first half and so regardless on how many guys are missing, they all manage to turn up in time for the second half.

RIPNEI - Oct 13, 2003 - 06:25 PM
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I hate the pact teams! it destroys the flavour of the game... you have a team with 2 guys at strength 5 ,2 at strength four, your linemen all have block and you also get a gutter runner!! re-roll cost aside this is stupid! Skaven have to deal with a team of str 3 and 2 av 7, access to only 2 players with block and skilless linemen to balance out their gutter runners...

again... a team with block tackle longbeards and a wardancer? dwarves are ment to be slow... this balances their fanatastic starting skill set... you give them a wardancer and it all goes out the window...

not to mention the fluff... pah it's wrong... wrong I tells ya... if these teams become official it'll be the death of Blood Bowl as we know it!

someone mentioned the fubbl stats earlier... I now refuse to play in DivX( the division including the experimental teams) because all anyone plays is pact teams.

kalten - Oct 15, 2003 - 07:07 PM
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I've got to admit I'm with RIP on this. I used to play in a league (way back in 1994) where you could mix two races together and take upto 4 players from a single other race - re rolls were dictated by the base race. I ended up running out 12-0 winners in the league and winning the knockout cup we held without letting a single TD go past me with my Dwarf / Human mix. It was awesome. (I won the final 7-0!)
After that we didn't really want to play BB for some time as it kinda destroyed the feel of the game. There was a Dwarf / Elf mix, but we found that the lower armour of the elves generaly left a bunch of dwarf linemen on the pitch and not much else, whereas the humans had that little bit of extra staying power.

The whole mixed race thing should either be done the same way the old chaos all stars were done (second ed) or by allowing a max of (I dunno, say...) 2 non base race players in the team who can't use team re rolls.

Indigo - Oct 16, 2003 - 02:02 AM
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or not allowing mixed races at all...

anthrax - Oct 16, 2003 - 08:57 PM
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Pact teams are broken

the only way they might work is if all players were 10,000 more expensive.

You can justify it by saying that it is the extra money the manager had to offer them to play with other people they don't like as opposed to their own race.

This makes pact teams really hard to play in short comps because the start team will need to be mainly skillless linemen and with some expensive re-rolls.

So they will start weak but be able to buy kickass players once the tourney goes on.

I still think they break the game and should be left out of the revision, but if you take them in they need to be forced into using the least number of good players at the beginning (kinda like elf teams)

Wadedidit - Oct 16, 2003 - 11:55 PM
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I had a Chaos Pact team (with the Dark Elf included later retired due to rule change) I played 14 Games and won everyone of them.
I started with lots of FF and ReRolls. I was lucky enought to have a very good Skaven GR and a Dark Elf thrower. The two combined for a 24 TD record from there games together. The GR then continued after this to score 50 in 14 games. With a Minotaur and Ogre at the same time was very damaging as you could leave you Minotaur behind the lines to prevent ganging up. They are if created right the best side going at the moment. Now I have an Orc Thrower which isn't as effective but will do!
I agree with Galak, way too powerful. (The team is now retired after an undefeated season!)

Wade

kalten - Oct 17, 2003 - 07:44 PM
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Indigo wrote:

or not allowing mixed races at all...

Which is exactly what I have done in my league - NO mixed race teams at all.

This is of course our leagues prerogative so there! Wink

Darkson - Oct 19, 2003 - 10:20 PM
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What, so no CD's, Chaos, Orcs or teams with BG access then? Wink

'Zons vs. HE vs. DE Smile

kalten - Oct 24, 2003 - 05:30 AM
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mmmm...maybe that was worded badly.

I think what I meant was no teams that use players from other teams to make a new team roster.

Is that better? Smile

Darkson - Oct 24, 2003 - 08:13 AM
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Ah, just Orcs then Wink

kalten - Oct 27, 2003 - 03:10 PM
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lol! yeah - but Orcs suck!
mmm...me think there is bias here....damn those Orcs, if it weren't for those pesky kids I'd have the CamCarnage Trophy

on my mantle piece
Sad

hee hee