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House Rules - Orge team
Darkson - Feb 12, 2003 - 10:35 PM
Post subject: Orge team
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but, having just received my BB Mag #6, I have to say I'm disappointed with the Orge team as presented.
0-8 Orges (without the Big Guy racial char 
[typo or intended?])
0-8 Basic Gobbos
70k RR
Comparing this to the one a group of people thrashed out on TBB, I know which one I prefer. If a player in my group wanted an Orge team I know whichone I'd allow them to take. (And before anyone says I'm biased, I didn't contribute to the TBB Orge team, just played them in a couple of playtest games)
Does that now mean the TBB team won't get considered?
AnthonyTBBF - Feb 12, 2003 - 11:08 PM
Post subject:
I'd send it in anyway, the team in the mag is experimental afterall. I thought the TBB idea was quite good myself. Can't see how the above team would ever lose really... I haven;t seen the stats yet though.
Squiggoth - Feb 13, 2003 - 02:04 AM
Post subject:
No Big Guy rule so you can use Re-Rolls, perhaps?
I like the fact that you can take Goblins by the way!
Thadrin - Feb 13, 2003 - 02:34 AM
Post subject:
Those rules SUCK.
The ones we came up with on TBB have been tested (did you want another test game darkson? Drop me a mail.) and give a much more flavourful team.
Still yet to see a new team presented in BBMag that I actually like and that seems to have had any thought whatsoever put into it.
Squiggoth - Feb 13, 2003 - 02:39 AM
Post subject:
Can you email the TBB rules to me please? (I'm curious...)
(edit) That's Squiggoth@hotmail.com
Martijn
Indigo - Feb 13, 2003 - 02:45 AM
Post subject:
Can I ask how you got your BB mag 6? I've been into 2 local stores and they aint out...
Narkotic - Feb 13, 2003 - 04:30 AM
Post subject:
Subscription! They send out subscription issues one month earlier thatn its official release. Remember, #5 editorial was published at bloowbowl.com at the end of October whereas it was officialy released in January.
Squiggoth - Feb 13, 2003 - 04:42 AM
Post subject:
I've lost my trust in subscriptions after all this trouble with the White Dwarf... 
Redfang - Feb 13, 2003 - 05:09 AM
Post subject:
I'm also interested in the resulting ogre team from TBB.
Anybody got a quick link, or maybe a file (TBB seems out again)?
R
Mestari - Feb 13, 2003 - 07:25 AM
Post subject:
Redfang wrote:
(TBB seems out again)?
Haven't been able to access it either. Hopefully it recovers soon...
-Teemu
Darkson - Feb 13, 2003 - 11:23 AM
Post subject:
Qty Position Mv St Ag Av Skills & Traits Cost Skills
0-12 Ogre Linemen 5 4 1 8 Big Guy, Bone Head, 80,000 St
Thick Skull
0-2 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Big Guy, Bone Head, 120,000 Gn, St
Mighty Blow, Thick Skull
Throw team-mate
0-2 Ogre Blocker 4 5 1 10 Big Guy, Bone Head, 120,000 Gn, St
Mighty Blow, Thick Skull
0-2 Goblins 6 2 3 7 Right Stuff, Dodge, 40,000 Ag Stunty
Re-Rolls: 90,000
I think this is the last incarnation from TBB. I've played against this team twice (Pariah was orge coach), draw wih a Norse team (though 3dead 
) and with a Vamp team using the TBB's COFAB rule (check the MBBL page for more details).
Darkson - Feb 13, 2003 - 11:24 AM
Post subject:
And if you have difficulty reading it (doesn't like my copy-paste) PM me with your email and I'll try to send you the file soon-ish 
Darkson - Feb 13, 2003 - 11:26 AM
Post subject:
Indigo wrote:
Can I ask how you got your BB mag 6? I've been into 2 local stores and they aint out...
I've got a BB Mag subscription.
#6 turned up 2 days BEFORE I received my #5 
Dave - Feb 13, 2003 - 04:37 PM
Post subject:
Boy the new team sucks
It won't get into our league will it Redfang??
Redfang - Feb 14, 2003 - 01:32 AM
Post subject:
Not if I'm the deciding factor.
Zarhan - Feb 14, 2003 - 04:53 PM
Post subject:
Can someone post the other rules for Ogres, IE how many on the field 11 or 8?
Darkson - Feb 14, 2003 - 10:13 PM
Post subject:
All current versions allow 11 players on the field, so the fanatic version is 8 Orges (ST5) and 3 gobbos, while the TBB version allows 4 (ST5) Orges and 7 (ST4) Orges max.
lawquoter - Feb 15, 2003 - 05:41 PM
Post subject:
I've wanted an Ogre team for a long time, and I suppose I'll dig in the coffers and pay the 80 bucks or whatever it will be to get the figs, but I won't play with those crappy rules. Definitely the TBB rules.
Diesel - Feb 15, 2003 - 06:07 PM
Post subject:
Having read Darkson's post earlier I have to say that I like the flavour of the TBB Ogre team much more than the one printed in BB Mag #6.
Considering there are figures available I am sure that the Ogre team will become Official at some point, as I assume will Khemri and Necro.
I just hope that considering the amount of feedback and input that is given about these teams on TBB and here that somebody actually takes notice of some of the views.
Milo - Feb 15, 2003 - 09:47 PM
Post subject:
Diesel -- At least one of the BBRC members has noticed, and a proposed compromise team has garnered some decent reviews on TBB. If I can get it to a point where the general public is happy with it, I'll start aggressively lobbying the other members of the BBRC to accept the changes.
Darkson - Feb 16, 2003 - 12:04 AM
Post subject:
As it currently stands I'd vote:-
1) TBB version
2) Milo's current version
NEVER) Fanatic version
Of course, all 3 need more playtesting, but you get the general idea.
If the Fanatic version came official in or near the form it is now, I would ban it from any league I ran, and I haven't banned Khemri, which is overpowered IMO.
Any before anyone asks, I can't provide a link for Milo's team, as TBB is down again
Darkson - Feb 16, 2003 - 12:14 AM
Post subject:
I've worked out how to get the TBB Orge team accepted by GW. We ignore the games designers and go straight to the money men. They'll love the TBB orge team. Think about it. The Fanatic version allows 8 Orges max at £8 = £64 plus 8 gobbos. The TBB version allows 14 Orges max @ £8 = £112 plus 2 gobbos.
I think we have a winner 
Darkson - Feb 16, 2003 - 01:10 PM
Post subject:
Link to thread Milo hijacked to talk about Orge teams( ):
http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4762&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I'm now leaning towards Milo's version, as it's more likely to be accepted, and much as I like the TBB team, it doesn't look like JJ would go for a ST4 orge.
Squiggoth - Feb 17, 2003 - 04:34 AM
Post subject:
Actually, I think the Blockers in the 2nd list are a bit overpowered (AV 10??? That's a Treeman!) and the number of Goblins draws me towards the 1st list... But I'll give them both a try and see how they play.
Are re-rolls in both teams useable only by Goblins or by Ogres as well?
Dave - Feb 17, 2003 - 03:18 PM
Post subject:
Redfang wrote:
Not if I'm the deciding factor.
You're not but this time I agree
Dave - Feb 17, 2003 - 03:24 PM
Post subject:
Squiggoth wrote:
Actually, I think the Blockers in the 2nd list are a bit overpowered (AV 10??? That's a Treeman!) and the number of Goblins draws me towards the 1st list... But I'll give them both a try and see how they play.
Are re-rolls in both teams useable only by Goblins or by Ogres as well?
They are blockers after all but read page 10
The blocker has AV9 here
This team looks quite good IMHO
Milo - Feb 17, 2003 - 05:14 PM
Post subject:
Here's the most recent playtest list I suggested:
Code:
Ogre Team List
Qty Position MA ST AG AV Skills Cost Access
--- ------------ -- -- -- -- --------------------------- ---- ------
0-4 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, 120k G, S
Throw Team Mate, Bonehead
0-12 Ogre Blocker 4 5 1 9 Really Stupid, Thick Skull 90k S
0-4 Goblin 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff 40k A
Re-rolls: 80k
Apothecary: 50k
I'll still need to propose this to the BBRC, and both this and the BBMag #6 team need more testing. Hopefully this is pretty close to what a final Ogre Team roster might look like.
Squiggoth - Feb 18, 2003 - 02:22 AM
Post subject:
Ah, that's more clear! I'll give it some test runs and see how they play.
But can the re-rolls in this team be used by Ogres as well or just by the Gobbos? (3rd time I've asked, guess it pays for all... )
Milo wrote:
Here's the most recent playtest list I suggested:
Code:
Ogre Team List
Qty Position MA ST AG AV Skills Cost Access
--- ------------ -- -- -- -- --------------------------- ---- ------
0-4 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, 120k G, S
Throw Team Mate, Bonehead
0-12 Ogre Blocker 4 5 1 9 Really Stupid, Thick Skull 90k S
0-4 Goblin 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff 40k A
Re-rolls: 80k
Apothecary: 50k
I'll still need to propose this to the BBRC, and both this and the BBMag #6 team need more testing. Hopefully this is pretty close to what a final Ogre Team roster might look like.
BlanchPrez - Feb 18, 2003 - 09:23 AM
Post subject:
Squiggoth wrote:
Ah, that's more clear! I'll give it some test runs and see how they play.
But can the re-rolls in this team be used by Ogres as well or just by the Gobbos? (3rd time I've asked, guess it pays for all...
)
Considering that none of the Ogre's on that team list has the Big Guy trait, I would say yes, they can use team RR's. I would assume that the difference between ogres on an ogre team and ogre big guys playing for another team is that an ogre team practices together and works on trying to be a real team, thus rerolls. But, that's just a guess.
Chris
Squiggoth - Feb 19, 2003 - 03:40 AM
Post subject:
Sounds like a Wise Guess I could go with that! (Not that my Ogres will need any re-rolls, off course - the'll be brilliant! 
)
dlb1969 - Feb 20, 2003 - 09:01 AM
Post subject: ogre team...
Milo wrote:
Here's the most recent playtest list I suggested:
Code:
Ogre Team List
Qty Position MA ST AG AV Skills Cost Access
--- ------------ -- -- -- -- --------------------------- ---- ------
0-4 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, 120k G, S
Throw Team Mate, Bonehead
0-12 Ogre Blocker 4 5 1 9 Really Stupid, Thick Skull 90k S
0-4 Goblin 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff 40k A
Re-rolls: 80k
Apothecary: 50k
I'll still need to propose this to the BBRC, and both this and the BBMag #6 team need more testing. Hopefully this is pretty close to what a final Ogre Team roster might look like.
I actually like it. It's much better than the one that is posted in the BBmag. That's just boring. This is much better. I think that maybe they should drop the blockers to 0-8 and make the team have to take 0-4 gobbos eventually. I'll have to do some play teating with this team and see what they play like. It looks good though.
Now all we have to do is get them to make a more interesting vamp team. I am working on house rule teams for my own league that incorporate the vampire counts theme with blood dragons, von carstein, etc. The vamps are less powerful in terms of stats, but that have skills to off set.
dlb1969 - Feb 20, 2003 - 09:28 AM
Post subject: OGRE TEAM TIME TABLE...
So is there any time table for when the ogre team will be coming out for sale?
Grumbledook - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:00 AM
Post subject:
should be out within the next month i would think
Milo - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:46 AM
Post subject: Re: ogre team...
dlb1969 wrote:
Now all we have to do is get them to make a more interesting vamp team. I am working on house rule teams for my own league that incorporate the vampire counts theme with blood dragons, von carstein, etc. The vamps are less powerful in terms of stats, but that have skills to off set.
Sadly, Chet and I already worked up and proposed Vampire Count rules, but were soundly rejected by Jervis. I think I can get a copy of the rules, though, if you want it.
Milo
AnthonyTBBF - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:56 AM
Post subject:
Well it will be interesting to see how this team develops in play testing. I have a funny feeling even this list has managed to out-cheese the Khemri team.
dlb1969 - Feb 20, 2003 - 01:41 PM
Post subject: Re: Milo and vamp counts team rules...
Milo wrote:
dlb1969 wrote:
Now all we have to do is get them to make a more interesting vamp team. I am working on house rule teams for my own league that incorporate the vampire counts theme with blood dragons, von carstein, etc. The vamps are less powerful in terms of stats, but that have skills to off set.
Sadly, Chet and I already worked up and proposed Vampire Count rules, but were soundly rejected by Jervis. I think I can get a copy of the rules, though, if you want it.
Milo
I would love to get those if you could email them to me at Jiriki13@yahoo.com. I posted the vamp count teams that I made up on another post in this section for house rules. Check it out and see how close or far I went from what you guys did.
dlb1969 - Feb 20, 2003 - 01:55 PM
Post subject: OGRE TEAMS; ALL OF THEM...
Either way you look at it, this team is way overpowered. With a possibility of 11 ogres on the field all with at least ST4+. That is just crazy. I think maybe 11 ogres is a bit much. Maybe they need to keep Milo's team, but only allow them 8 on field with 12 for a max roster. Something like this using Milo's roster.
0-8 ogre blockers
0-4 ogre blitzers
0-4 gobbos
Let them only field 8 and have 12 max roster spots open. That would leave them flexible for people who want more gobbos or more blockers. The question would be do you want more potential scorers on the field, gobbos and blitzers, or more ST5 players that can't handle the ball. I just think 11 on field is a little crazy when your talking about what could possibly be 11 ST5 players. Yea, they couldn't handle the ball very well; but would they have to. There probably wouldn't be too many opposing players left on the field to stop them in the second half. They could have the potential to be the toughest blocking team in the history of the game. Just some random thoughts about the subject.
I also think that ogre RRs should be at the very least 80k. They may practice more than normal ogres do, but they are still stupid/boneheaded.
Grumbledook - Feb 20, 2003 - 02:41 PM
Post subject:
Really stupid will have a nasty effect unless you support them. Its a lot better than the roster in bbmag6
dlb1969 - Feb 21, 2003 - 08:11 AM
Post subject: Yea, but...
Grumbledook wrote:
Really stupid will have a nasty effect unless you support them. Its a lot better than the roster in bbmag6
What happens when the ogre team only has 3 of those really stupid players on the field. It's not that hard to make sure they are, at least, covered for the intial blocks with gobbos. Can a really stupid player support another really stupid player? If that was so then those three could be placed on the line all in line adjacent to eac other and have support that way.
Dave
skummy - Feb 21, 2003 - 08:27 AM
Post subject:
As I understand it, Really Stupid players can help each other out, even if they have already failed their own roll. You've also got Goblins on the roster who seem ready made to dodge out and help the big dummies.
Milo - Feb 21, 2003 - 09:32 AM
Post subject:
LRB2.0 wrote:
Because of this you must roll a D6 after declaring an action for the player, but before before taking the action. If there???s one or more players from the same team standing adjacent to the really stupid player???s square, and who aren???t also really stupid, then add +2 to the dice roll. On a roll of 1-3 they stand around trying to remember what it is they???re meant to be doing. The player can???t do anything for the turn, and the player???s team loses the declared action for that turn (so if a Really Stupid player declares a Blitz and rolls a 1, then the team cannot declare another Blitz that turn).
Note the "and who aren't also really stupid" clause. This prevents Really Stupid players from standing together and acting like Boneheads. This could be up for debate as to whether it should say "and who aren't also really stupid or boneheaded".
Milo
skummy - Feb 21, 2003 - 09:42 AM
Post subject:
Thanks Milo, I must have missed that somehow. I wonder how I'm going to break this to my league's Goblin player.
Apedog - Feb 21, 2003 - 12:19 PM
Post subject:
It will be interesting to see the playtest results from this team. Initially they look even scaries than the Khemri team but with Bonehead and Really Stupid they are a lot less reliable and even though these can be re-rolled it's going to drain the teams re-rolls.
Aristodeimos - Feb 25, 2003 - 07:20 AM
Post subject:
Not making the Ogres "Big Guys" is a mistake. Not only are you snubbing your nose at Blood Bowl tradition, but you are increasing the value of the model without increasing it's price. This team should have to play without the benefit of team re-rolls to compensate for it's OVERWHELMING strength.
Milo - Feb 25, 2003 - 07:50 AM
Post subject:
Aristodeimos -- Remember, this is just a playtest team. There's ample time to change that before the team becomes official. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it WON'T become official until some playtesting data confirms our theory that the rampant Really Stupid on this team will always be its downfall.
dlb1969 - Feb 25, 2003 - 08:53 AM
Post subject: No Re-rolls a bit much...
Aristodeimos wrote:
Not making the Ogres "Big Guys" is a mistake. Not only are you snubbing your nose at Blood Bowl tradition, but you are increasing the value of the model without increasing it's price. This team should have to play without the benefit of team re-rolls to compensate for it's OVERWHELMING strength.
I do agree that this team is super strong over all, but I think banning them from using re-rolls on their own team would be a bit much. It's not like they are cheap to begin with. I tried making teams with all of the proposed rosters that were posted here and I had a rough time getting more than 1 re-roll to start. That means this guys will be paying a hefty price for re-rolls during the season. That being said, I think 80k should be the absolute least amount for any ogre team's re-rolls.
Dave
Aristodeimos - Feb 25, 2003 - 09:29 AM
Post subject:
Yes, not using team re-rolls would be a huge detriment to this team, but there is more at stake here than just playability and fairness...there is history and integrity to the Warhammer world. One of my teams is a goblin team and I've long suffered from Jervis' view that goblins should suck and not be made on par with other races. IMO, ogres fall in the same category. They are boneheaded big guys. They don't care to make practice...they don't go to school to get smarter, and playing Blood Bowl is just an excuse to smash things. The ball is an after thought.
Aristodeimos - Feb 25, 2003 - 09:33 AM
Post subject:
Milo,
Fair enough. I help run a league in the DC area with a rather sizeable "minor league" which can help playtest your team (Skummy is also in my league). We have plenty of "beat-down" coaches that would love to playtest this team. We'll be sure to share the results....
~Aristodeimos
skummy - Feb 25, 2003 - 10:59 AM
Post subject:
Aristodeimos&Milo:
One problem I have with a lot of playtests is that they throw all of the experimental teams into one league and let them beat the crap out of one another. The problem is that you can't tell whether the Chaos Pact and the Ogre experimental teams are broken if they keep playing one another all the time. I'd like to see the Ogre team playtested for 10-15 games in a normal league and put the results out there for everyone to see, including what the rosters looked like before the game. Maybe our league could do something like this in the minors, or as one off games that aren't attached to the league.
Squiggoth - Feb 26, 2003 - 01:33 AM
Post subject:
I can do that too if you like. Our league includes almost every team except for Undead teams, High Elves and Dark Elves (but the last two teams are coming). It might also be fair to let the Ogres be used by different Coaches (I don't see myself as the perfect Coach for playtesting with my ranking ).
Martijn
GalakStarscraper - Feb 28, 2003 - 11:56 AM
Post subject:
Code:
0-12 Ogre Blocker 5 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Really Stupid, TSkull,
Big Guy
100k G/S
0-4 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TSkull, TTM
120k G/S
0-4 Goblin Catcher 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
40k A
70k Rerolls
This was the test roster that TBB has currently agreed on for testing. The MBBL, SVBBL, ECBBL, EAGBBL, and CHUBB leagues.
Now fine points. The MBBL will be using the BB Mag #1 version of Really Stupid which read that Bonehead players cannot help Really Stupids with the +2 bonus. This was changed when the BB2k1 rules came out and the LRB was printed (not sure why, but if you have BB Mag #1 or BB Compedium #1 you can see the rule was changed for the BB2k1 rules).
Galak
dlb1969 - Feb 28, 2003 - 02:03 PM
Post subject: Galak...
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Code:
0-12 Ogre Blocker 5 5 1 9 Mighty Blow, Really Stupid, TSkull,
Big Guy
100k G/S
0-4 Ogre Blitzer 5 5 2 9 Bonehead, Mighty Blow, TSkull, TTM
120k G/S
0-4 Goblin Catcher 6 2 3 7 Dodge, Stunty, Right Stuff
40k A
70k Rerolls
This was the test roster that TBB has currently agreed on for testing. The MBBL, SVBBL, ECBBL, EAGBBL, and CHUBB leagues.
Now fine points. The MBBL will be using the BB Mag #1 version of Really Stupid which read that Bonehead players cannot help Really Stupids with the +2 bonus. This was changed when the BB2k1 rules came out and the LRB was printed (not sure why, but if you have BB Mag #1 or BB Compedium #1 you can see the rule was changed for the BB2k1 rules).
Galak
I see that the ogre blockers have the big guy characteristic. Does that mean they can't use the team's re-rolls?
Dave
GalakStarscraper - Feb 28, 2003 - 07:04 PM
Post subject: Re: Galak...
dlb1969 wrote:
I see that the ogre blockers have the big guy characteristic. Does that mean they can't use the team's re-rolls?
Correct the Blockers cannot use team rerolls. Only the Blitzers and Goblins.
The goal here was to be as true to the fluff as possible. The Ogre team hit like a ton of bricks but the fluff says that the Ogres were HORRIBLE Bloodbowl players. So the Blocker is basically a less agile Ogre who is much more stupid. Thus the Really Stupid and Big Guy on him.
Now again, I recommend testing this team with the OLD version of Really Stupid that didn't let Boneheads help the Really Stupids NOT the NEW version in the LRB. This is one more thing that helps balance the team if only the Goblins can make the Blockers less stupid (which seems right to me).
Galak
Mestari - Mar 01, 2003 - 01:36 AM
Post subject:
And just to bug Galak, I say that the TBB does not stand united behind the exact roster that Galak presents. There are a few points that do not meet complete agreement:
Namely:
-Big Guy/No Big Guy on the blockers
-MB or no MB on the blockers
-Gen/ST or only ST access on the blockers
(blocker cost should be adjusted accordingly)
-Rerolls cost: 70k or 80k
Most importantly I oppose denying the majority of the team from using rerolls. Really Stupid (and hopefully not giving them MB or gen access) will keep the players in check. Not allowing them use team rerolls simply is too much of an exception.
I would much rather see playtesting so that the blockers won't have BG and if they're too good then perhaps give them BG to compensate.
GalakStarscraper - Mar 01, 2003 - 05:45 AM
Post subject:
Mestari wrote:
And just to bug Galak, I say that the TBB does not stand united behind the exact roster that Galak presents. There are a few points that do not meet complete agreement:
Since Mestari "bugged" me, I feel okay to "bug" back.
Mestari is correct that there were 4 points where there was debate related to the Blockers. Again I really wish everyone would just drop the ST only access since there are only 5 normal ST skill available, and this create one more special rule for a player (what do we do when you make a skill roll and there are no skill left to take). I don't know Milo's stance on this as he hasn't commented about the issue of ST only access since it was pointed out that there are only 5 ST normal skills, but I know Chet has commented that he's against a new exception to the rules. So please just give this one a rest. Beyond this point that shouldn't even be a point is the following option.
Another version of the team possible would be to lose Mighty Blow and Big Guy on the Ogre Blocker keeping his price the same and raising rerolls to 80k.
However, I will point out that 5 leagues have stepped forward to the test the roster I posted from the TBB discussion, and no one has proposed to test another variant at this point. So is there disagreement .. yes ... have the disagreers had enough support to get a different version tested ... not yet that I aware of. I only mention this to show the degrees of disagreement on TBB.
Galak
Mestari - Mar 01, 2003 - 06:45 AM
Post subject:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Another version of the team possible would be to lose Mighty Blow and Big Guy on the Ogre Blocker keeping his price the same and raising rerolls to 80k.
A compromise I'd be willing to make, if the interesting situation of a ST access only -player is considered too interesting by the authorities.
Dave - Mar 01, 2003 - 07:26 AM
Post subject:
Hey Mestari. I partially agree with your comments but they seem like quite natural to weaken the team should it be too powerfull.
IMHO the discussion centered around these four items because of the difficulty to see how tough / bad the team will be in reality.
If they are too strong, remove something like MB, or givvem RS, For example