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North America - Questions regarding the Chaos Cup '04 . . .
Old_Man_Monkey - Dec 16, 2003 - 05:41 AM
Post subject: Questions regarding the Chaos Cup '04 . . .
Preview
Posted: Tue Dec 16, 2003 2:22 pm Post subject:
GalakStarscraper wrote:
Hmmmmm ... 2004 becomes the year the US organizers goes it alone:
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Tom,
Well, I have some bad news. Games Workshop will not be at Gencon this year for several reasons and due to the Regionalization of the country we have a very limited budget on prize support. As of right now I will not be able to support the tournament in the way of prizes or stamping it an official GW event. I am currently working on a long term plan for the Chaos Cup which means that this upcoming year we will not have the proper marketing or promotions to run an awesome Tournament system. We are looking at unfolding the Chaos Cup in 2005. Unless something changes I will be in touch but good luck and have fun.
Joe Krone
Midwest Promotions Manager
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thanks for the reply Joe ... sorry to hear that ... will there be a Chaos Cup 2004 at all?
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I think so but we are working on the where, when, how and to what extent.
Joe Krone
I hoping that the Cup can still be held. I'm going to work with Joe to see if I can help him in any way.
Galak
I don't believe I'm often a 'Chicken Little' kind of guy, but the above was posted under the GenCon thread on TBB, and I would like to ask if anyone can shed more light on the Chaos Cup situation. The only answer acceptable to the question "Will there be a Chaos Cup in 2004 at all?" is "YES", not "I think so", especially since the costs of space and trophy were incurred in 2003 and should not be repeated in '04.
I had thought the regionalization of the sales force would be a good thing but surely there is corporate support for ongoing events - I would be amazed that no national sales bugets exists in GW.
Last year's GenCon was a strictly GW event - only Tom can say whether it will remain so. While I'm not at all trying to pick a argument, to me this is an example of the same short-sightedness that caused BB to be dropped years ago. At the least, it indicates a lack of planning and indecisiveness I find troubling.
OK, enough from me - trying not to make a determination without more information. Anyone?
-OMM
GalakStarscraper - Dec 16, 2003 - 07:27 AM
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As a sidenote ... Jim and I are offering our assistance in a couple ways to make sure there is a Chaos Cup.
Jim and I have some ideas that we are presenting to GW-US, so no mass e-mails yet. Give us a second to get some more information. Hopefully we'll have some good information to give on this note soon.
Galak
Melifaxis - Dec 16, 2003 - 11:45 AM
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If there's anything I can do, let me know.
Darkson - Dec 16, 2003 - 11:49 AM
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Well, if GWUS don't want to host the Chaos Cup, maybe GWUK will step in and hold it 
GalakStarscraper - Dec 16, 2003 - 12:39 PM
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Darkson wrote:
Well, if GWUS don't want to host the Chaos Cup, maybe GWUK will step in and hold it
I don't think having it will be an issue ... how big it is might be the problem depending on how well GW-US is willing to work with non-GW employees.
Galak
GalakStarscraper - Dec 16, 2003 - 03:17 PM
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Joe had emailed me to say it will be held again in 2004 at Games Day Chicago just like last year.
Galak
Old_Man_Monkey - Dec 16, 2003 - 06:40 PM
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Glad at least to know this, Galak - thanks for the update!
-OMM
GalakStarscraper - Dec 16, 2003 - 09:04 PM
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Unfortunately by not agreeing to move the Chaos Cup to GenCon ... I once again get to fight them for coaches as the two are so close together time wise.
And I'm not bashful. GenCon is a bigger and better run event, and if Team Spain is going to fly over ... I'm going to try to convince them and every other coach thinking of hopping on a play to come to the GenCon Bowl instead of the Chaos Cup.
Do I like this situation ... heck NO! ... but I sent a detailed business case for moving the Chaos Cup to GenCon for 2004 so that we didn't compete for coaches again, and got turned down ... so I wish them luck ... but I'm not going to pull my punches on trying to get folks to come ... didn't last year ... not going to this year either.
My biggest fear is this ... the 2003 Chaos Cup was new last year. GenCon is well known to most Midwest gamers. I had several friends and local leagues go to the Chaos Cup with their spending dollars, because in their own words: "its the US National tournament ... surely its going to be THE big tournament to go to this year." Those same friends have told me that they were disappointed when they got there and realized that it only had 2/3rd the number of coaches as compared to GenCon and realize now that the Chaos Cup wasn't really the one US touranment to save up the pennies to attend. Now we are finding out that the Chaos Cup in 2004 might get even less support in terms of prizes and advertising even if it is held at Games Day Chicago. If that is the case, what happens when the folks that went to the Chaos Cup last year because they though it was the event to attend don't come? If the Chaos Cup only gets 25 coaches showing up what does that do to GW-US's perception of Blood Bowl because they spent 3k USD on the stadium and the Chaos Cup itself.
Now call it self-aggrandizement if you want, but my real fear is that when these two events are within 2 weeks of each other again this year that GenCon could end up killing the Chaos Cup after last year's wounding.
I'm going to be honest and pray that I'm wrong because I hate the fact that the two tournaments have to duke it out. But if I'm right about what I was hearing last year ... then my fears may become true.
We'll see ... I'm still going to try and convince folks like Team Spain and Andy Hall to visit Indy if I can instead of the Windy City. Oh well ... I live for the challenge. Already have emails off to two gaming publications to see if they'll run some ads about the GenCon Bowl for me ... and to GenCon to get the tournament considered a "featured event" which means its gets its own paragraph in the front of the guidebook instead of just being mixed in as 3 line entry along with the other 1,000 tournaments... let the battle for coaches begin.
Galak
Xtreme - Dec 16, 2003 - 09:19 PM
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Now we are finding out that the Chaos Cup in 2004 might get even less support in terms of prizes and advertising even if it is held at Games Day Chicago
Is that possible?
Sounds like they aren't considering how much they are setting BloodBowl up for failure. I'm worried that the Chaos Cup attendance will be down and they will judge the popularity of the game here on the low attendence there without considering the number of people at GenCon or the lack of effort they want to put into the game. Why did they spend $3,000, to half ass it last year and then do even less this year? The Dungeon Bowl in Germany sounds like it has a lot of good things going for it already, and the BloodBowl is always great. Hopefully the Spike will go for some of the same things the Dungeon Bowl is doing and ignore this mess with the Chaos Cup.
Indigo - Dec 17, 2003 - 02:15 AM
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lol just a side issue but from what I hear the Spaniards hate being called Team Spain - apparently they are adamant the name is "Spanish Team" 
I've heard no end of complaints after they printed Team Spain in BBmag 
Tojurub - Dec 17, 2003 - 07:20 AM
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well....I went ot Chaos Cup last year. It was my first BB tournament ever. I was kind of exciting, but I was disappointed. The $60 ($20+$40) could have been invested better. I just read the Dungeon Bowl post (in German) and they offer a much superiro package. It costs 75 Euro (roughly $90), but you get 3 meals AND it pays for staying at a youth hostel 
, plus you get a special Dungeon Bowl 0.5l (quart) glass mug 
. You can't beat that!!!!!
The prizes at the CC were kind of lame, except the spiked football. But why spend all that money for the huge CC trophy if it's on stays with GW. For me that's an expensive trap to collect dust.
Not knowing where I'm going to be next year during the time of GC and CC, but hearing all about GenCon and the way it was organized (compared to the lousy way CC was) I would opt for going to GenCon, that's for sure.
Just my 2cents
majortusk - Dec 17, 2003 - 10:29 AM
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I thought the chaos cup was just fine at 2003 Games Day. 2004 should be just the same.
Zombie - Dec 17, 2003 - 01:07 PM
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Hey Majortusk, welcome to the NAF forums! 
Do you still work on BBC now and then? Still have plans for it?
Darkson - Dec 17, 2003 - 03:19 PM
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Galak, just make sure the powers-that-be (on both sides of the pond) understand the situation. Maybe if GenCon again turns out to be bigger than the Chaos Cup they'll see sense (but knowing GW, probably not ).
aerofool - Feb 09, 2004 - 07:36 PM
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majortusk wrote:
I thought the chaos cup was just fine at 2003 Games Day. 2004 should be just the same.
I agree, I think it should be held at the US Games Day as usual. If that doesn't work out, I'm sure there would be plenty of GT's taking place in the US that would make perfect opportunities to fit in the CC.
Xtreme - Feb 09, 2004 - 08:09 PM
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I like it in Chicago because I'm selfish and it is close to me.
majortusk - Feb 09, 2004 - 10:43 PM
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GW is going to do GW things. the simple fact that you are going to "Compete" with the Chaos Cup is probably why they would be thinking of folding it. GW sees only things that GW does, IE if their Tournament in the USA is bringing in 40 people... as compared to the BB tourny in England.. then they will have no choice to fold it. it doesnt matter to GW if someone has a tourney bringing in more. They will only see what the Chaos Cup participation is.
Actively competing with GW and attempting to take possible business away from them for a hobby that is only reliant on its fanbase is just going to end up killing the game.. again.
thats just my opinion. not saying that we should all bow down before the mighty GW, just that this game has limited support keeping it alive. Its not Warhammer or 40k. When GW sees low interest in the tournament, it will just cancel. And the US fans of Blood Bowl will lose their right to one of the 'cups' of Blood Bowl, because of a few people.
We should be supporting everything that GW does with Blood Bowl, especially if you are a fan of the game. They are the ones that publish it, and choose to keep it in production. They have the final say. They stop seeing support for it in official GW events, they will stop caring for it, it will go on the back burner, and we will have to wait for the next relaunch in 5 years.
I am kind of tired, so I hope i made sense. Everyone should goto the Chaos Cup.
Zombie - Feb 10, 2004 - 12:02 AM
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Hey, it's GW's own fault for putting the Chaos Cup at the same date as the GenCon. GenCon's date was announced before that of the Chaos Cup, and lots of people had already planned to go there when GW announced the Chaos Cup. It's their own fault for not planning any better.
No, people should keep going to GenCon, because from what i hear it's 10 times better than the pitiful Chaos Cup.
If GW had the sense to move it, then people could go to both.
Tojurub - Feb 10, 2004 - 08:26 AM
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I just attended the Halfings Dinner Mug and Gregg had the liberty to reveal the date for the Chaos Cup....It looks like they learned a lesson, but I don't know if they improved it by doing so.
Apparently it's going to be a one day tournament on Nov 6, 2004 at the Battlebunker in Chicago.
The winner of the HDM got a free entry certificate where this information was stated on.
So let's see what the official word will be.
ggiersch - Feb 10, 2004 - 10:24 AM
Post subject: Chaos Cup in November!
Yes, Tojurub is correct. The Chaos Cup will be held in November. I too am worried about implied competition and lack of support for the Chaos Cup. I thought last year's was just fine. It was the first and I expect that it can only get better. The last thing I want to do is tout the Halfling Dinner Mug as being better than another tournament. I will say that we have a great tournament for some reasons - but please let me know if I ever wander off the path by comparing it to someone elses in a negative fashion!
Take the GenCon tournament for example. Tom has asked me if I could talk about his tournament and get a group of folks to go. I did that because he requested it, and I would love to see folks go to a number of tournaments. It really is up to us to do the same thing for the Chaos Cup. What I would like to see not happen here is a number of possible messages telling people why they should not go to the Chaos Cup.
I'm all for a positive discussion on what could make this year's Chaos Cup a better event in the eyes of the Blood Bowl community.
Let that discussion begin!
Tojurub - Feb 10, 2004 - 10:47 AM
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Here's MY opinion about the Chaos Cup:
The rules: They should have the same rules for all 4 major tournaments during one year! If they set the rules for the BB in Nottingham they should adapt that for the Chaos Cup, the Spike! Magazine Trophy and the Dungeonbowl (with the exception of the finals to be played in DB-style).
They should have some experience from the last years with BB and last year CC. Learn from the mistakes and keep the good things. I know that GW likes to do their own things, that's their well deserved right, but they should also TRY to understand their customers needs and wishes, which sometimes I don't see that happening.
My highest respect to Galak and his great experience, but sometimes he comes across as being the person everybody has to adapt to. I have to point out that I don't mean that in any bad way!!!! Many people agree with him that certain rules worked out fine at GenCon (e.g. Starplayer rule), but maybe GW wants to take their own way of dealing things. Is it good or even fair? I don't know....I think it's just a different way and everybody has to respect that. If I don't like the rules, just stay away, if you like the rules or you can live with them even though you don't think they are perfect: Go to the tournament!...and have fun playing other BB-maniacs
I'm all for voicing your opinion here or at TBB or at the GW forum, but do it in a constructive way (similar what Galak does) and don't bitch about it!
As for this years Chaos Cup: I like the fact that they decoupled it from GamesDay, I just wish they would have kept the 2-day format. I don't know if I'm willing to fly in to play just 3 games. One of the fun things about 2-day tournaments is the getting together with the other players after the games get to know them away from the boards and see how they are doing the next day.
Melifaxis - Feb 10, 2004 - 10:55 AM
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Well said Greg.
A few thoughts:
* A one day event may make the cost for travelling coaches a little tougher to stomach. It does for me. Add that to the fact that we're a lot more spread out than our European counterparts makes a pretty significant obstacle.
* The winner should get to take the trophy home (after signing a release that they will return it). Or maybe receive a plastic replica to keep permanently. GW certainly has the plastics technology to produce it.
*Exclusive mini's draw attendance...coins don't seem to be a big draw
majortusk - Feb 10, 2004 - 12:12 PM
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yay, now i can goto both tourneys and make GW and Galak happy
In all honesty, I still say that as fans of this game we should support/participate in as many GW run BB events as possible. thats the only way they see people supporting the game. Besides buying the minis.
Tojurub - Feb 10, 2004 - 12:58 PM
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Anybody having an ide how much they charge this year?
ggiersch - Feb 10, 2004 - 01:03 PM
Post subject: Chaos Cup Specifics
I'm not sure what the price is yet, but I will be placing a call to the source and keep everyone updated.
Keep watching this space!
Xtreme - Feb 10, 2004 - 01:21 PM
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I had planned on going to the chaos cup this year already and maybe teh spike as well, my problem with some of the changes is that they seem to be trying to kill the tournament with changes like fewer spots available then there were last year and a one day as opposed to two day event. They are forcing a lower turnout. When can we expect to hear an offical work on the tournament? How many games SP rules etc? Is this going to end up like the Dungeon Bowl which has become a huge disaster I hope they get turned around in time but it is ugly now. If they don't give bloodbowl a chance of course it will fail.
Carnage4u - Feb 10, 2004 - 02:31 PM
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..
CyberHare - Feb 10, 2004 - 04:22 PM
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A one day major? I don't think so. November is the UCon in Ann Arbor. And only 3 weeks before Nov. 6this the Death Bowl II in Montreal. Compare as we dare I think the people who attended the Death bowl last year got a lot better deal than the Chaos cup group did. This year is going to be even bigger! Bet on it!
Zombie - Feb 10, 2004 - 04:46 PM
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All i can say is that i know i'll be going to the Death Bowl this year and i also know that i won't be going to the Chaos Cup. But considering that i live in Montreal, that's hardly a fair comparison.
I won't go to GenCon either because i don't like gaming convensions and don't see why i should pay for registration to something i have no interest in. If Galak's tournament weren't held at a gaming convension though, i'd be very tempted to go.
CyberHare - Feb 10, 2004 - 08:14 PM
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Zombie wrote:
All i can say is that i know i'll be going to the Death Bowl this year
Yeah that's one...
Zombie wrote:
I won't go to GenCon either because i don't like gaming convensions
Z, there's gaming cons and then there's GenCon. I took 2 guys with me last year, practically dragged them there actually, and they thought the same way as yourself. They are 100% converts. Definetly going back this year. Might even be room in the car for you.Temped?
Zombie wrote:
Galak's tournament weren't held at a gaming convension though, i'd be very tempted to go.
I think you'd be in the minority there. I'm not trying to say it still wouldn't be a big great tournament or that it being GenCon was the only reason it was big. But even Galak admits that it being at GenCon helps. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Tourney or no I'm going back to gencon this year. That Galak is running his event there makes it all the more sweet.
Zombie - Feb 10, 2004 - 08:56 PM
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I guess i'd have to see it before passing final judgement. But to me, the gaming convension IS a bad point. I'd rather have an all Blood Bowl weekend rather than having half the attendees distracted by other games. For example, another guy you know from Montreal went last year and ended up quiting after the first game. He said it was for the best as it gave him more time to look at all the events out there. That kinda puts me off the whole thing to be honnest.
But i know i'm in the minority. I'm not trying to get it changed, just voicing my opinion here.
Tim - Feb 11, 2004 - 09:55 AM
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Hey Zombie, come to Europe, most tournaments are run outside the Gaming Cons here and most people prefer it like that
Tutenkharnage - Feb 11, 2004 - 02:07 PM
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GenCon is a beast unto itself. I had a blast at the tournament last year. That said, the second coach I played against dropped out. That wasn't cool, as his points went missing for a while. (To be fair, Tom averaged the other scores to account for missing scores - or maybe he assigned a straight average of available scores, I don't remember - but it's still not cool.)
-Chet
CyberHare - Feb 11, 2004 - 07:36 PM
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Ok yes coaches dropped out. Almost all the Canadians dropped out in the first day. But, they wouldn't have been there in the first place if it hadn't been Gencon.
Zombie - Feb 11, 2004 - 07:41 PM
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I'd rather someone not be there then show up and drop out after a game or two. That's not serious.
Xtreme - Feb 11, 2004 - 08:16 PM
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Bloodbowl bieng the only game I Play I wish there were a way I didn't have to pay to get in the convention but it was worth it in the end. Awesome tournament can't wait till this years. I did manage to find some booths that had some stuff to use on my stadium that will get built someday. I hate to see people drop out early kinda gives me the vibe that they only came to win and if they can't win they don't wanna play. Not really the attitude I take to a tournament but hey.
GalakStarscraper - Feb 12, 2004 - 08:38 AM
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Zombie wrote:
For example, another guy you know from Montreal went last year and ended up quiting after the first game.
That same guy (ie Dave Cook) came up to me on the 2nd day and said how horrible the other event he tried to play in was and how much of a schmuck he was for not staying in the BB tournament.
So lesson learned I'd say. I also threw Dave in the Klingon jail for 10 minutes for dropping out of my tournament just to drive home the point ... 
And Zombie ... my tournament would not be as big as it is without GenCon ... no question that's just a very simple fact.
Finally Majortusk ... Andy I'm all for supporting GW and trying to keep interest in my hobby, but they keep doing things that make that very difficult.
Moving the Chaos Cup to November means with my funds I have to choose between Neo's Underworld Cup a long standing 2 day tournament with guys with guys I've played against for a couple years or a one day tournament in Chicago. I'll really try to go to both ... but I already know if I have to choose between the Underworld Cup and the Chaos Cup ... I'm going to Underworld. Sorry its just the truth.
Also ... I doubt many folks will fly over for a one day event. That's going to hurt attendance also.
And guys ... yeah I'm a forceful personality, but do you all honestly get the feeling that GW-US is even trying to support the hobby. I'll advertise the Chaos Cup at GenCon without them asking about it. In fact I'm going to try to print off a list of major US events for folks if I can to hand out.
But I'm not going to not try and run the best tournament I can regardless of any other factors or events. Sorry if my post came off as elitist as both Majortusk and Greggster took offense from my post ... but its more me being upset that GW has 2 years running now set up the Chaos Cup to fail that pushes my buttons and I've seriously tried very very hard to help them and they always tell me "thanks but no thanks". So if I rant against the Chaos Cup its only because I've extended a helping hand many times and I'm down to a thumb and one finger on that hand from the responses I'm getting from GW to my helping hand.
Galak
Tom
Old_Man_Monkey - Feb 12, 2004 - 09:14 AM
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European and American, con v BB only - fascinating contrasts here:
a. the enjoyment for me is the social time before and after - (game time banter and talk aside) - this, and the fact I play only Blood Bowl make cons more of a distraction. Still GenCon was amazing to see and experience;
In organizing the TKC, I've taken extra time to ensure that the time between rounds is taken up (quizzes, prize drawings, shopping discount, etc) and players are not just standing around. Since it looks as if the TKC number will settle around forty, which is about what the Chaos Cup had, it will be interesting to see how coaches feel about the tourney - I don't know of another stand alone NA tourney yet but for Graphix's CharlotteBowl last month (anyone?) so it's a trial effort in some ways...
b. I'm certain I would like the Euro environment better - have a beer afterwards and socialize, but I've met many great people at the tourneys in NA to date, so it is less the game room and rules, and more the personality of the players involved...
c. GW support - hmm, this is tricky, since my experience of support from Fanatic has been extremely positive. GW-US need to somehow (and I've not figured this one out yet...) be convinced that the game is viable and that there are those outside GW - Tom, John, and Greg first among equals - who bring skill and knowledge to creating an smoothly functioning and enjoyable tournament environment. I think our strategy remains two fold: (a) continue to organize and grow indie tournaments, with time and energy given to the development of new players, and stand ready to pick up the ball in the worse case scenario of complete abandonment by GW-US, and (b) continue to work positively with what we are given at Chaos Cup, Gamesdays, etc., and the people involved - I truly believe Tim H., Aaron and the others are not purposefully trying to ruin or shut out the game - they just need to see others enjoying it as we have, or experience it themselves. All we need to do is get one, maybe two real converts from the staff - players who really get what is going on from a tourney perspective, and the general direction of BB - and I think we're in. Advocacy requires patience and lots of honey, and a belief that you are in the right - I sometimes look at the numbers of active NAF members and ask who we represent... (the mix of TBB and NAF participants in the BB should tell us something... mainly that we are still on top of the iceberg and maybe GW is responding to the BB leagues in their shops just as much as they are responding to us... I don't know but there are still good questions and answers out there.
Just my thoughts (sorry for the ramble...)
Zombie - Feb 12, 2004 - 09:41 AM
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GalakStarscraper wrote:
Zombie wrote:
For example, another guy you know from Montreal went last year and ended up quiting after the first game.
That same guy (ie Dave Cook) came up to me on the 2nd day and said how horrible the other event he tried to play in was and how much of a schmuck he was for not staying in the BB tournament.
I guess he was too proud to tell me that. He told me that he didn't regret quiting because it allowed him to take some time to look around the place and check out all the cool stuff.
GalakStarscraper wrote:
And Zombie ... my tournament would not be as big as it is without GenCon ... no question that's just a very simple fact.
I don't doubt that. I've already said so. But the fact is that for me, this is a big negative.
Zombie - Feb 12, 2004 - 09:44 AM
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Old_Man_Monkey wrote:
I don't know of another stand alone NA tourney yet but for Graphix's CharlotteBowl last month (anyone?) so it's a trial effort in some ways...
Come on, have you already forgotten the Death Bowl? I know a tourney organizer who won't be happy!
Old_Man_Monkey - Feb 12, 2004 - 09:48 AM
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Ooops! That IS embarassing... 
But Brian will remember that I'm just an old, graying, dottering, drooling monkey and chalk it up to Alzheimers or something....
Melifaxis - Feb 12, 2004 - 10:07 AM
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ROFL
CyberHare - Feb 12, 2004 - 10:41 AM
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Sigh, it's sad to see the old linger on with fading memory. ROFL
I'll remeber that next weekend when if we face off on TO 
There will be no mercy.
Xtreme - Feb 12, 2004 - 01:15 PM
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but its more me being upset that GW has 2 years running now set up the Chaos Cup to fail
My biggest concern is that they seem to be trying harder this year then last to cause this tournament to fail. Does anyone have Tims email, I would like to send him my thoughts.
AnthonyTBBF - Feb 12, 2004 - 01:26 PM
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If I had a choice, I'd host all my tournaments independently. However our situation is just a casualty of tradition really since our original Commish who set up the Orion Cup way back in 98 just happened to be friends with the Orion con organizer.
I also think Europe has a greater history of public space. Over here we don't have the pubs and halls like they do overseas. And if we do find one it's usually freakin' expensive. Cons are a cheap way to run an event with less risk of not breaking even.
Lastly, if you want to see how GW can run a BB event I suggest you come to the Spike! and see
Tojurub - Feb 12, 2004 - 02:17 PM
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Hopefully GW Canada does things better than the US or German headquarters....we just have to find out.
Darkson - Feb 12, 2004 - 03:14 PM
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Tojurub wrote:
Hopefully GW Canada does things better than the US or German headquarters....we just have to find out.
Or from the looks of things, the UK events team 
Zombie - Feb 12, 2004 - 04:11 PM
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AnthonyTBBF wrote:
I also think Europe has a greater history of public space. Over here we don't have the pubs and halls like they do overseas. And if we do find one it's usually freakin' expensive. Cons are a cheap way to run an event with less risk of not breaking even.
Oh really? I always heard it was the opposite.
In any case, you can always find something good if you look hard enough.
Xtreme - Feb 12, 2004 - 04:18 PM
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Lastly, if you want to see how GW can run a BB event I suggest you come to the Spike! and see
I hope this is true, closer to the time I'll see how it's shaping up and see if I will be coming. The other three majors aren't looking to impresive, can't be too hard to top them.
AnthonyTBBF - Feb 12, 2004 - 07:08 PM
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Well I'm helping organize the Spike! so it better be good
Xtreme - Feb 12, 2004 - 08:07 PM
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Well that is a promising start.
GalakStarscraper - Feb 13, 2004 - 04:50 AM
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Zombie wrote:
Oh really? I always heard it was the opposite.
I personally don't have to pay for the GenCon space at all Zombie ... its a no charge cost to me and I get my admission to GenCon free for running the tournament.
So it definitely a lot easier on me budget wise to have the tournament at GenCon. Last year ... I think the Blood Bowl tournament was 8 USD on top of the Con admission for player. This year it will be 15 USD I think but only because GW-US is refusing to provide any prizes for the tournament.
Galak
Indigo - Feb 13, 2004 - 05:25 AM
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No prizes at all??
so who will be providing the prizes?
Zombie - Feb 13, 2004 - 06:15 AM
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Galak, it may be cheaper for the organizers but not for the participants. How much is entrance to GenCon for the weekend? That in itself is probably more than i paid for admission to the DeathBowl.
AnthonyTBBF - Feb 13, 2004 - 08:31 AM
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I think GenCon is probably and exception to the rules because of its size. What was the DB entry fee BTW?
Melifaxis - Feb 13, 2004 - 08:42 AM
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I think it was $35 Canadian if you pre-reg'ed, $40 at the door, and $5 back if you were a NAF member...
AnthonyTBBF - Feb 13, 2004 - 08:45 AM
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Sounds about the same as the Canadian Open.
GalakStarscraper - Feb 13, 2004 - 08:50 AM
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Zombie wrote:
Galak, it may be cheaper for the organizers but not for the participants. How much is entrance to GenCon for the weekend? That in itself is probably more than i paid for admission to the DeathBowl.
GenCon admission is 46 USD ... BB tournament is 13.50 for a total of 59.50 USD for GenCon ... however ... as Brian/CyberHare said ... GenCon is worth quite a bit ... not to you ... I understand that completely ... but to most folks they would be coming to GenCon anyway ... having a BB tournament there is just gravy.
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Indigo ... I'm footing the bill for a lot of it because this is a really large tournament and I'm not getting prize support from GW-US this year and GW-UK is not as able to help tournaments as they have been in the past either.
Here's the break down of expenses for running GenCon:
Prizes: 425 USD (13 different prizes + gate fig for anyone finishing all 4 games)
Trophies: 150 USD (8 trophies)
Odd Man Odd: 50 USD
Photocopies: 100 USD
So that's 725 to run the tournament. Last year I had a lot of corporate/individual help from both GW-US, GW-UK, OldManMonkey, Deathwing, ChaosMailOrder.com, and VirtualAlchemist.com. This year I've requested corporate help from Phigsminiatures.com and ChaosMailOrder.com which they've already agreed to provide for some free advertising in one case and just because Phil is a hell of a guy in the other ... (but their discounts are already factored into the above numbers at this point).
So don't worry there will be prizes as you can see.
Galak
Tojurub - Feb 13, 2004 - 09:52 AM
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....so you need 50 people to attend to break even...how many did attend last year? I know CC03 were 43 players, but I think GC03 had a higher attendence
GalakStarscraper - Feb 13, 2004 - 11:30 AM
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Tojurub wrote:
....so you need 50 people to attend to break even...how many did attend last year? I know CC03 were 43 players, but I think GC03 had a higher attendence
97 players to break even ... GenCon gets 6 USD (1.50 USD per a game per a player) of the 13.50 USD as an overhead fee. GenCon 03 had 70 paid players (of which only 60 showed up). I'm fully expecting to have to foot some of the bill for GenCon this year, but last year I paid about 250 USD of my own money to have the tounament ... so I'm not opposed to some out of pocket expenses to make this tournament run and run well.
I realize at this point this thread has been completely hijacked. But a one day "Majors" event ... come on even Greggster and Majortusk who are defending GW here to the nines have to agree that the whole event becomes a question mark as a "Majors" event. I WILL try to attend, but if my wife makes me choose between the Underworld Cup and the Chaos Cup, I'm going to have to go to the Underworld Cup. If they land on the same weekend, it will not be a choice at all.
In summary and on topic about the Chaos Cup '04:
1) I'm disappointed its a one day event
2) As a one day event I think attendance will suffer as I doubt as group like the Spanish Team will fly over.
3) Greggster/Majortusk ... I offered to help with the event and was turned down.
4) GW has already confirmed to me that the Chaos Cup will receive significantly less funding this year for advertising and prizes as compared to last year.
5) I will do my part and put a pull in for this tournament at the GenCon Bowl.
6) I will contact GW and see if they'll give me a free ticket for 1st place like they did Greggster's tournament as a means of additional promotion of the event.
7) I will be very interested to see the rules for the 2004 Chaos Cup as I'm not sure the 2004 Blood Bowl rules work well for a one day tournament and I'm not sure they'll have time to do the quiz worth 10% of the points (or if they'll be willing to write one). Maybe GW-UK events will give them a copy and we can all get the answers ahead of time.
8) I would like to argue that just because GW runs the event doesn't mean I have to go to it if I disagree with the format. I hear Majortusk/Greggster's points about supporting the "official" US major, but I would like to beg to differ that if the US cancels the Chaos Cup that we'll lose it. I know GW-UK is open to having an independent run the Chaos Cup as this question was researched last year at one when questions came up about the whens and hows of the Chaos Cup. If GW-US says screw it we won't run it ... there is no reason one of us would not be allowed to run it. I'm 100% behind supporting Blood Bowl and GW when they support Blood Bowl ... doesn't mean I cannot question if I think they've made some bad choices.
Galak
Tojurub - Feb 13, 2004 - 11:39 AM
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Maybe we do a REAL Chaos Cup in the future.....nobody will know where it's held and who's attending until 3 weeks before the tournament starts. 
Old_Man_Monkey - Feb 13, 2004 - 12:04 PM
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Tom - PM me about NAF tourney support, as I'm taking for granted it will be a NAF sanctioned event.
Deathwing - Feb 13, 2004 - 12:34 PM
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Tojurub wrote:
Maybe we do a REAL Chaos Cup in the future.....nobody will know where it's held and who's attending until 3 weeks before the tournament starts.
Isn't that the Dungeonbowl 2004?
Xtreme - Feb 13, 2004 - 07:34 PM
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Dungeon bowl is a 3days advance notice
So if GW US pulls the plug then GenCon can become the Chaos cup???
majortusk - Feb 15, 2004 - 10:44 AM
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last year... yes attendence was not that great for the Chaos Cup, but you also have to look at it from when the Cup was played. Games Day. How many people that play BB only play BB? or would choose BB over thier thousand dollar investments in 40k or Warhammer?
I know many here may not have that dilema, but i know a few of my friends who do. Sadly, here in the midwest the population is kind of sparse. so when a event comes to the area like gamesday, as a GW fan you had to choose last year.. WHFB/40k or BB.
BTW, i do think greggster and gregg Giersch are 2 different people
i still hold the staunch belief that even if GW drops the proverbial ball on BB Chaos Cup, we should still support and goto the Cup. I dont want the fanbase to be the blame. I dont want the excuse of lack of fan support to ever be used in canceling the CC We dont need to give them a reason to do it.
GalakStarscraper - Feb 16, 2004 - 10:15 AM
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majortusk wrote:
BTW, i do think greggster and gregg Giersch are 2 different people
I realized that for the first time last night ... sorry to Gregg Giersch for that misunderstanding.
Galak
Melifaxis - Aug 03, 2004 - 12:33 PM
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Things that go BUMP in the night...
Anyone hear anything new and official in regards to The Chaos Cup. I just checked the GW events page and didn't see anything...
Xtreme - Aug 03, 2004 - 09:37 PM
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Hard to get excited about a one day tournament that will probably be over run by stars.
Melifaxis - Aug 06, 2004 - 09:03 AM
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True, but it's still a major...
GalakStarscraper - Aug 06, 2004 - 09:13 AM
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Xtreme wrote:
Hard to get excited about a one day tournament that will probably be over run by stars.
In the category of good news. The guy running the Chaos Cup went to the Memorial Mayhem ... (I'm going to beat on all of you who ditched that tournament until it hurts). As a result we had the opportunity to talk to him.
Very good odds that the Chaos Cup will be a simplified version of the GenCon Bowl (ie no secret weapon players, but using the rest of the rules).
We'll see .... I have a meeting scheduled with him. He was planning the event for November last I heard.
Galak
Melifaxis - Aug 06, 2004 - 09:18 AM
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Thanks Galak
Zarhan - Aug 24, 2004 - 07:43 AM
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While I didn't attend the Chaos Cup last year in my backyard, I have attended both 2003 and 2004 Gen Con Bowls. I think that there were a lot of coaches and levels of talent there. I particularly liked the way Tom ran it, when matching up coaches from the 2nd through 4th rounds. As it seemed to me most coaches were playing on an equal level. The first round is random, and the points kind of decide after that. I give him props for the way he handles it. I'm not much for socializing while playing, as I realize 2 hours goes quickly so I kind of stick with the focus on the game. Which probably hurts my points in sportsmanship, but I will try and improve that, as I realize that is very important in the game. I kind of would like sportsmanship along with painting to be tie breakers. Anyways, I will try to attend the Chaos Cup along with the Halfling Mug this year, and will give more feedback to them. I do hope Gen Con gets a major tourney, if not the Chaos Cup, perhaps another one.
Zarhan
GalakStarscraper - Aug 24, 2004 - 09:53 AM
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zarhan wrote:
I do hope Gen Con gets a major tourney, if not the Chaos Cup, perhaps another one.
To be honest zarhan ... it one of the reasons I'm taking GenCon to 5 games.
I've been told that the NAF would not support trying to convince GW-US to move the Chaos Cup to GenCon without it being a 5 game tournament.
As for Sportsmanship ... we'll next year it will matter even less as I always make perfect Sportsmanship worth the value of a win and Painting worth the bonus points. This system has worked really well for me and I plan on continuing it. For me a tournament is not just about who wins the most but also the player who represents the best overall player who brings the most to the game.
I'll be curious to see the rules for the Chaos Cup. Wife might be making me choose between the Chaos Cup and Underworld Cup ... we'll see.
Galak