NAF World Headquarters

Rules Questions - Piling on

freckles - Feb 18, 2003 - 02:16 AM
Post subject: Piling on

I have a question about piling on. When you pile on with a player, do you say that you are going to pile on BEFORE or AFTER the armour roll? The rules book is not too clear on this. I always believed that you had to declare BEFORE you piled on, the risk being that even with the pile on you may not break the armour. However, the rule book doesn't state that specifically.

The reason that I ask is that I recently played at a con where a few players played that you could declare after you made the armour roll. This of course means that you know whether or not piling on will make the difference necessary to break the armour. This strikes me as a particularly cheesy interpretation of the rules. All of the skills have some risk of failure involved in them, and if you don't have to declare until after you roll the dice the risk for that skill is negated.

So, I am keen to hear what others think about this. Let me know!

Cheers!

Deathwing - Feb 18, 2003 - 05:11 AM
Post subject:

After the dice roll is the official answer.
LRB p.15 "...you can choose to you a skill that affects a dice roll after rolling the dice."

I haven't got a problem with it, but it's controversal, and I know of leagues that have house ruled PO so that it needs to be declared before the dice roll.

Squiggoth - Feb 18, 2003 - 05:13 AM
Post subject:

I'd say "before" as it makes more sense, but "after" cause skills like Mighty Blow may also be used after you rolled the dice... Cheesy but that's life!

spree - Feb 18, 2003 - 05:33 AM
Post subject:

Played an Undead team with two Piling On Mummies at Cancon this year. It was agreed the skill could be used after rolling the dice, but the Commish over-ruled and went with declaring before rolling armour. I was still absolutely smashed by these Mummies so declaring before-hand doesn't diminish the usefullness of the skill!

Deathwing - Feb 18, 2003 - 06:30 AM
Post subject:

spree wrote:

Babs ruled before? I'm a little surprised.

spindex - Feb 18, 2003 - 10:35 AM
Post subject:

At first I thought this skill was too much if used after the roll but after playing with it a few times I see that there is a trade off. You pile on me gives up a nice hit. My orce foul your piler!! hehe makes really thinking about using the skill.
Norse blitzers are prolly the best choice for this skill I have seen!

Dave - Feb 18, 2003 - 03:58 PM
Post subject:

Yep, perfect choice for Norse Blitzers.

We use 'choose after' but 'Choose before' seems more natural. The blighter just drops onto your player

biggy - Feb 18, 2003 - 04:01 PM
Post subject:

The problem is not resolved by merely saying, "oh well I can foul the guy afterwards". Although the rules state that any skill can be used after the die roll it is clear that this was an oversight in regards to Piling on. The 'players' that are exploiting this situation are doing it with mummies, ogres, black orcs and the like. All of which are unlikely to be removed from the pitch with a foul due to high armour and the fouling rule that says you can't assst a foul in a tackle zone. Personally I think the easiest way to fix it is to make piling on count as a foul action. It limits the use to once a turn and the risk to the piling on player is considerably higher. As it stands there is virtually no risk to an undead or 'god forbid' a Khemri team giving piling on as a first skill to all mummies. Most people play bloodbowl to have a good time, its a fun game, but when opponents start using tactics such as these you don't have a good time and if your opponent is a decent person (if) they won't have a good time if they realise that you're miserable.

spree - Feb 19, 2003 - 12:00 AM
Post subject:

Deathwing wrote:

Quote:

Babs ruled before? I'm a little surprised.

I don't know the exact reasoning but I'd say it was most likely a diplomatic stance to resolve a heated discussion/heated opposition to the rule or a personality clash. None of which are needed in a fun friendly comp! Smile

ZanzerTem - Feb 19, 2003 - 01:29 AM
Post subject:

2 different answers for this:

1) We house rule BEFORE. It is just to cheesy not to.

2) LRB says AFTER.

It depends on what your asking. Do you want the "official" ruling, or just a general league consensus?

Melifaxis - Feb 19, 2003 - 03:38 AM
Post subject:

BloodbasherMasher wrote:

Ditto.

freckles - Feb 19, 2003 - 04:03 AM
Post subject:

I think Babs was forced to rule because there was so much opposition to the 'after' ruling that some people were playing. What it all comes down to (I think) is having a good time. Declaring piling on after the dice roll is just cheesy, and I find that the players that tend to take it are the people I don't enjoy playing against. Maybe I'm a BB 'purist'. Play in the spirit of the game. I don't care if I win or lose (as evidenced by my coach ranking) as long as I have a good time! I enjoyed most of my games at Cancon, with one notable exception. My win/loss record was woeful, but I wasn't at all upset as I played some really good opponents and had a good time.

Anyway, it's good to hear other people's opinions. Don't crucify me for mine though!

Cheers!

SBG - Feb 19, 2003 - 08:28 AM
Post subject:

It sounds more fun after though : the guy just pummeled the other guy with a fair block, but he sees him getting his ideas back into place, so he decides that a good elbow drop would do justice to his last block ! That<s the spirit !

Fred

skummy - Feb 19, 2003 - 11:44 AM
Post subject:

Fun? I don't know about that. I recently had an Orc team torn up by 2 PO Mummies. It's quickly becoming the LRB's version of Dirty Player in our league, and I'm thinking about getting Piling On/Mighty Blow on as many of my Orcs as possible to prove a point.

Personally, I think it needs to be toned down. Make the armor bonus 1/2 the strength of the player, rounded up.

ZanzerTem - Feb 19, 2003 - 11:02 PM
Post subject:

There is a Khemri team in our tabletop league that has 4 mummies with Pile On. Even with the "declare before" rule we use, they still have on average 2-3 casualties APIECE. Yes, apiece. A team (high elves) was forced to play a recovery game with 4 players on the field.

I've always felt that Pile on should have a bonus of 1/2 STR, round down. But, thats a different topic altogether Rolling Eyes

[edit] Thats 2-3 casualties per game, BTW]

destro - Feb 19, 2003 - 11:42 PM
Post subject:

four mummies with pile on? that sounds pretty rough! are they doing that to be beardy or is it part of their schtick?
we had a person who would foul and pile on every opportunity he could, even so far as to have the control of the ball next to his endzone and not score so he could keep his other players in good fouling positions. eventually word gets out about those kind of players in a league and every team ends up giving them a taste of there own medicine. it really bugs me when a player is there just to try and ruin everyone elses fun.

I agree with the toning down as well, 1/2 str round up, or maybe just a flat bonus of +2 or +3 to the roll regardless of strength.

Deathwing - Feb 20, 2003 - 04:05 AM
Post subject:

BloodbasherMasher wrote:

Somebody (DangerousDave on TBB) did this in a Pbem league in a deliberate attempt to prove that the Khemri team as it stands is broken.
He pretty much did. The key was the MB/PO combination, meaning that the use of PO to break armour left the +1 from the MB to go on injury.
Crucially, this turns the average roll of 7 from a stun to a KO. I believe the current version being tested has replaced MB with Foul Appearence on Khemri Mummies, and downgraded the AG on the Ra's. You can see the changed roster here:
http://www.blood-bowl.net/GWTeams/Khemri.html

I don't think that there's any question that the current Khemri team is broken, your league's experience adds to the general consensus.
That's the problem with allowing 'experimental' teams in Leagues. I guess it's not going to console your poor Helf coach that his sacrifice may well be for the greater good in the end. Smile

Maybe he could play with the Vamps or Ogres next, he could help prove that they're overpowered too, but this time by dishing it out! Twisted Evil

Geno - Feb 20, 2003 - 06:23 AM
Post subject:

DW: We've had the same problem with a Khemri team, 4 PO mummies, not even slightly fun to play against. I only fear that the new Ogre team could go the same way with 8 of the blighters at ST5.

Still, we're going to play the 'Oldhiem Ogres' vs 'Nurgles Rotters' soon. Using the new experimental team rules of course.

Grumbledook - Feb 20, 2003 - 07:49 AM
Post subject:

Personally I don't like the idea of foul appearence on mummys, just doesn't sit right. Fumbbl are testing with 3 mummies rest as was. Though this doesn't sit right either, maybe another position player to compensate would be better.

AnthonyTBBF - Feb 20, 2003 - 07:57 AM
Post subject:

Piling On was doing damage to our league IMO, I had to rule the PO be used before the AV roll just recently.

It was getting to the point where it was almost the only skill being taken for ST players (and why wouldn't you really). Now that we play this way I've noticed PO being used more strategically and some more varied ST players on the pitch.

skummy - Feb 20, 2003 - 09:42 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Deathwing:
Somebody (DangerousDave on TBB) did this in a Pbem league in a deliberate attempt to prove that the Khemri team as it stands is broken.
He pretty much did. The key was the MB/PO combination, meaning that the use of PO to break armour left the +1 from the MB to go on injury.

And yet many of the same people are looking to get an Ogre team approved with twice as many 5 strength Mighty Blow players on the pitch at once. Pointing this out to people yesterday was like trying to swim in peanut butter. I think Grumbledook was one of the few who agreed that making them all big guys is still broken.

EDIT:
Correction - only 4 of the players on Milo's Ogre roster have a 5 str and Piling On, but as it stands they can use rerolls. 0-12 have 5 str, no MB and access to only Strength skills. I'd bet PO will get choosen as the first skill 1/2 the time, and Break Tackle the other 1/2.

ZanzerTem - Feb 20, 2003 - 09:57 AM
Post subject:

Can you imagine if the "experimental" Ogre team get approved? Oh my god, 8 ogres with Pile On and Mighty Blow to start. Each would need only 3 casualties to start racking up points. MVP's would make getting the skill even easier. You think the Khemri are bad? Sheesh!

What the hell are they thinking? Pile On needs changed. BADLY.

Either downgrade the bonus it gets, or make it a trait. I think many would agree that this skill needs changes somehow.

Deathwing - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:05 AM
Post subject:

Somebody a while back on the GW forum proposed making PO a ST trait.

Would solve a lot of of the problems it's causing at a single stroke.
i.e. Rule consistancy (declare after rolling), Khemri, Ogres.

Interesting. I think I'd rather see that than see it remain a skill and it being either
a) Changed to 'Declare before rolling' (which makes it an anomaly) or
b) toned down.

And it'd right royally screw Norse Blitzers which can only be a "Good Thing"TM
Very Happy

skummy - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:07 AM
Post subject:

BloodbasherMasher:

The reason I suggested it be 1/2 rounded up is to keep it in line with Claw. A piling on 3 strength player can still get +2 to crack the armour, but he has to go prone to do it. I think that's fair, since it isn't a mutation/trait - which are supposed to be better. It also makes sense to me that a 5 strength player would get +3 to pile on - but this would at least give the poor 7 armor people a chance to get through one of these blocks without getting pulped.

ZanzerTem - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:12 AM
Post subject:

So I guess it is a general consensus to either:

1) Make it a trait and keep the current description

2) keep it as a skill and reduce the bonus

Now someone flex some GW muscle and get if fixed. October rules review is coming up fast Smile

skummy - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:19 AM
Post subject:

I suppose both of us should lobby Galak to get it put back on the Rules Review questions page with a big asterisk. It would probably help if we kept some data on the effect that the current rules are having, as well.

...too bad we have to wait for talkbloodbowl to come back up...

ZanzerTem - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:29 AM
Post subject:

I'm sure that MBBL is seeing some of this, right? They have to. If not, I might actually start to PBeM and rock Galak's world. I here he is playing a 1/2ling team Smile

If MBBL is seeing this, I'm sure Galak will have it addressed.

Milo - Feb 20, 2003 - 10:55 AM
Post subject:

skummy wrote:

Correction - only 4 of the players on Milo's Ogre roster have a 5 str and Piling On, but as it stands they can use rerolls. 0-12 have 5 str, no MB and access to only Strength skills. I'd bet PO will get choosen as the first skill 1/2 the time, and Break Tackle the other 1/2.

None of the players on my list have 5 ST and Piling On. Were you thinking 5 ST and Mighty Blow?

I'll say that I think the Ogre Blitzer position is virtually guaranteed to be the same as the standard ally Big Guy Ogre. The Blocker position is still very much up for debate. Best idea is to playtest the experimental team posted here and on TBB (TBB has a more recent version) and give us some data to use to determine whether they need further changes.

Milo

ZanzerTem - Feb 20, 2003 - 11:00 AM
Post subject:

My Ogre team will have 8 guys with Pile On, and then I'll get block (assuming no doubles Rolling Eyes

). I dont care if every Ogre I have on the pitch is prone. Chances are 1/2 of the guys I just hit are off of the field as well =/

skummy - Feb 20, 2003 - 11:32 AM
Post subject:

Milo: Sorry, was typing fast. You're right - it should read "Strength 5 and Mighty Blow."

Having 4 blitzers that are ogres seems to bring the same problems that the original Khemri team had. I think that with Piling On working the way it does now, 2 players with 5 strength and Mighty Blow is broken. Having four of them with a good chance for more to follow is just asking for trouble.

Apedog - Feb 21, 2003 - 11:11 AM
Post subject:

Whilst the Ogre (and Khemri) teams have ST5 players with easy access to Piling On this is always going to be a problem, especially when combined with Mighty Blow.

As the Ogre Blitzers are always going to have these if they are to become official I think it's Piling On that will need to be revised.

We play that it's chosen before the dice are rolled and so far no problems, but no ST5 players in our league have it yet. Regardless of how to do it (some good suggestions in this thread) I think if these teams are on the way the Piling On issue will need to be addressed.

skummy - Feb 21, 2003 - 11:21 AM
Post subject:

Apedog: I wholeheartedly agree. By the way, there's a guy on talkbloodbowl.com who uses the exact same avatar that you are using right now. There is a lot of crossover between these two sites, and that Avatar will probably result in more than a little confusion. (Munkey, if this is you I'm going to be a bit embarrased.)

Apedog - Feb 21, 2003 - 11:52 AM
Post subject:

Certainly is me (casts off disguise!)

Thought Apedog was a little bit more original as in my travels on the net i've come across a few munkeys, then having registered immediately regretted it as i've become quite used to being Munkey on TBB Embarassed

skummy - Feb 21, 2003 - 12:06 PM
Post subject:

I'm sure Anthony could change it if you want to - or you could add a little text with your real identity in your tagline.

Apedog - Feb 21, 2003 - 12:13 PM
Post subject:

I did think about asking but I figured that he would be busy with other stuff, what with the site just going live. Also I didn't really want to set a precedent and have loads of people request name changes.

Apart from that I also wasn't too sure who to ask Embarassed

skummy - Feb 21, 2003 - 12:27 PM
Post subject:

http://www.bloodbowl.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=16

The only reason I know is that somebody beat you to the question. Wink

In any case, precedent has already been set.

Apedog - Feb 21, 2003 - 12:41 PM
Post subject:

Thanks, got to be worth a try i s'pose

biggy - Feb 23, 2003 - 07:21 PM
Post subject:

skummy,
great idea, 1/2 str is much better, but I still think it should count as a foul action.

Aristodeimos - Feb 25, 2003 - 06:13 AM
Post subject:

Munkey, I agree with you about it counting as a Foul. Unfortunately, the earliest Piling-on would be changed is the next Rules Review. My league will have finished three more tournaments by then. We could make a House Rule, but we are trying to stay true to the "vanilla" rules.

Arktoris - Feb 27, 2003 - 11:07 PM
Post subject:

our league plays "after" in accordance with rulebook, but I think it makes more sense to roll "before". It has been suggested by one of our coaches to cap the skill to +3 on armor, regardless of strength.

freckles - Mar 01, 2003 - 03:01 PM
Post subject:

Wow! I seem to have opened up a can of worms!! It's interesting to read everyone's opinions. I agree that the skill needs to be changed somehow, whether that's by going to 1/2 ST bonus or making it a trait (my preferred option). Think I'll email Babs and talk to him about bringing it up at the Rules Review in October.

Cheers!

spindex - Mar 01, 2003 - 11:47 PM
Post subject:

I think if you just change it to a trait it makes it much harder to get for a player. this would cut down on it a lot. then keep it to as is you get to decide after the dice roll.

GalakStarscraper - Mar 02, 2003 - 08:23 AM
Post subject:

BloodbasherMasher wrote:

I'm sure that MBBL is seeing some of this, right? They have to. If not, I might actually start to PBeM and rock Galak's world. I here he is playing a 1/2ling team Smile

If MBBL is seeing this, I'm sure Galak will have it addressed.

I try to summarize several points:

1) The MBBL is see "some" of this. However, so far the conclusion has been not that Piling On was broken but that non-Big Guys starting with MB was a problem. IE the Mummy. So our BBRC folks that watch over the MBBL requested replacing Mighty Blow with Foul Appearance on the Mummies (a trait they had in both 1st and 2nd edition of BB). So far in the MBBL the Khemri have been averaging 3.25 Cas per a game with the mixed record of 2 games played with MB Mummies and 2 games with FA mummies. Now I have 2 Khemri teams in the MBBL who have 7 Mummies total of which 5 have Piling On. When the Khemri team started with Mighty Blow, it averaged 4.25 Cas a game. Since Mighty Blow was replaced with Foul Appearance, the Khemri team is average 2.25 Cas per a game. The Norse teams in my league are at a 2.4 Average and the Dwarf teams are at 2.67, so the revised Khemri seem to have Cas #s back down with the normal LRB teams.

2) I'm not really going to argue the whole Piling On debate. Chet once went into a very long stats discussion on Piling On vs other skills like Tackle to prove that even after the AV roll the skill wasn't that great. HOWEVER, changing Piling On back to before the AV roll seems to be one of the single greatest House Rules current in BB leagues from the LRB, so it needs considered by the BBRC again. Trust me, I plan on getting the BBRC Hot List back up and running for the new year, and Piling On will again go back on it. But not Diving Tackle ... the skill sucks if it has to be declared before the Dodge roll (but that's another discussion).

3) Rock my world Masher. Trust me, while you are more than welcome in the MBBL I don't think you'd try to break the experimental or existing rules any more so than the 40 coaches in the MBBL currently are. As for coaching Halflings. 10 games played with the team. I've never been held scoreless, and I've only been beating by more than 1 TD twice, so you are welcome to try but I don't use the tactics in BB Mag #6 to play the team ... unlike that guy I actually know how to play LRB Flings.

Think that's it for the summary ... if you want to see the race statistics for the MBBL to date, the link is here:

http://www.blood-bowl.net/MBBL/MBBL_RaceStats.htm

Galak

Babs - Mar 03, 2003 - 05:19 AM
Post subject:

For the record:
I changed it because it was giving an undue advantage and coaches were beginning to choose the skill to stay on par with everyone else who had it. Call it an arms race like Dirty Player used to be. To me it's a sure sign that there is a problem with the skill. There was also a fairly disgruntled undercurrent in the players about the top ranked coach cruising around taking advantage of such a rule. He is a good coahc and did not need to be doing so, but it was making a tournament which could be enjoyable less so.
So I house ruled against the LRB, despite wanting to be as 'vanilla LRB' as possible. So sue me - being in the BBRC isn't a straight jacket you know Smile

skummy - Mar 03, 2003 - 08:16 AM
Post subject:

Galak and Babs: Thanks for the input. I'll show both of these to my league. The comments about a Piling On arms race are very accurate.

On a sidenote, our league does not have a commissioner, and has to vote in changes to the LRB. Any change to the LRB has to be near unanimous, and can only have one dissenting vote. With a 13 person league, this isn't likely and we will keep playing with this rule until it is changed.

The upshot is, we are eagerly awaiting a ruling on this in the next Rules Review.

ZanzerTem - Mar 03, 2003 - 12:36 PM
Post subject:

I'm glad to see that there is an issue with Big Guys and Mummies with Pile On (because they have Mighty Blow). No need for me to learn how to use ANOTHER BBowl program.

How to fix it though? If it is ruled that Khemri mummies get FA instead of MB, what about Big Guys? Undead Mummies? Beast of Nurgle? <shiver>

Just ONE STR 4+ person with Pile On and Mighty Blow is a casualty factory.

Doubleskulls - Mar 05, 2003 - 05:07 AM
Post subject:

Just to add my 2p. At the TBB I played a game against 2 PO mummies with my Orcs. I finished the game with 4 orcs on the pitch - and he hadn't rolled particularlly good injury rolls. I had exactly the same experience against JJBs Undead in a practice game. It shouldn't really be possible with a couple of skills to reduce an Orc team to so much mush. PO is broken and needs fixing.

As to the fix going prone before Av roll means mummies etc spend nearly twice as much time on the deck - if they PO all the time and this although leaving the skill a good one for high Strength players at least gives you more opportunity to avoid getting hit.

Making it a foul or moving the IGMEOY marker is just a patch - fix the problem rather than creating a new layer of rules.

Making it a trait, although appealing, means lucky strength teams will still have casualty monsters.

I think the Khemri issue is separate - both PO and Khemri need their own fix. At the moment PO is by far the best strength skill for any S4 player.

skummy - Mar 05, 2003 - 07:42 AM
Post subject:

Quote:

Thank you! I had that exact same experience in the first game of my league's Spike! bowl regular season. Damned Undead took me down to three orcs on the pitch by the end of the game, and I was reduced to trying to dodge Black Orcs away from Piling On Mummies becasue at least if I fell down I wouldn't get Piled On.

ZanzerTem - Mar 05, 2003 - 08:16 AM
Post subject:

Seems like everyone is seeing the same results.

One note though.... Ian said that if Pile On is a trait, then the lucky Mummy or Big Guy would still have a casualty machine. Well, the same applies to the reverse.....The lucky Skaven/Wood Elf/Lizardman coach can develop a one turn scorer, something that in itself is extremely annoying and powerful.

I still stick with the idea of either making it a trait or only giving 1/2 Str bonus, rounded either up or down.

freckles - Mar 05, 2003 - 02:33 PM
Post subject:

I have brought this issue up with Babs and he assures me that Piling On will be looked at by the BBRC this year, as the skill is most assuredly broken. So, I have house ruled the use of Piling On at the con that I am running in May (see Leviathan under Tourneys). Re: doubleskulls and skummy... I agree that any skill that can reduce an Orc team to 3/4 players is outrageous and is in desperate need of some urgent repairs!

Cheers!

Apedog - Mar 05, 2003 - 04:22 PM
Post subject:

I agree Piling On needs changing (and the Khemri as well) but I would not like too see it made a trait as there are too few Strength skills as is. If we are going to start making them traits then we need to introduce a few more skills and thats a whole new can of worms.

Also if we make Piling On a 'trait' we are going to have to change the term used, it's hardly a trait is it.

Milo - Mar 07, 2003 - 10:49 AM
Post subject:

ApeDog -- It's true it may not fit the "fluff" of a trait, but the split between traits and skills is ultimately a game mechanic, and if that game mechanic can be used to limit access to an unbalancing skill, I have no problems with it.

It's true that the BBRC will be discussing this during this years' review. In the meantime, I encourage you to either make it a trait in your league OR return it to the pre-roll ability it was prior to the last Rules Review. I'll note that this skill has been around a long time -- Mummies always could get it -- and it has only been with the most recent review and the ability to apply it after the dice roll has been made that complaints have arisen. I think a rollback of this skill may be the ultimate fix.

For those of you being abused by these players, I heartily recommend a good dose of Dirty Player to their sensitive regions while they stare at the sky. That's what it's there for.

Apedog - Mar 07, 2003 - 12:23 PM
Post subject:

Milo, It was only really an afterthought that Piliing On does not fit a traits fluff. I agree that the whole traits thing is only a rules mechanic, but i've seen discussions about this come up on the boards a couple of times. It's a bit like the aging is stupid because Elves live for years argument. Really it's just wordplay but it is a (minor) consideration.

Of more concern to me is that ST skills are relatively few and I think it would restrict choices too much to limit them further.

Dave - Mar 07, 2003 - 12:26 PM
Post subject:

Milo wrote:

For those of you being abused by these players, I heartily recommend a good dose of Dirty Player to their sensitive regions while they stare at the sky. That's what it's there for.

so true

Apedog - Mar 07, 2003 - 12:27 PM
Post subject:

Sorry for the second post but, making a broken skill rarer also does not solve the problem but just makes it occur less.

Imagine a skill that let me win every game instantly but only could be obtained on 0.01% of skill rolls, you wouldn't let this skill in the game for obvious reasons despite it's rarity.

In my opinion traits only solve the problem where the skill was a problem when everyone had it but not if only a few players do. If the skill genuinely is broken (making no judgements here) then just making it a trait does not necessarily stop it being so.

skummy - Mar 10, 2003 - 08:17 AM
Post subject:

Milo: We've got an Undead team in our league with 2 piling on Mummies and 2 Dirty Player Zombies. If you foul the Mummies, he's only too happy to go after the rest of your team with the DP's and no Ref watching. Of course, the first person he'll try to Pile On is your own Dirty Player...

Melifaxis - Mar 10, 2003 - 08:37 AM
Post subject:

skummy wrote:

That's good coaching!

Twisted Evil

skummy - Mar 10, 2003 - 09:37 AM
Post subject:

Oh, he's a very good coach. I managed to beat him in our leagues Blood Bowl final and outcasualty him 4-0, though. Twisted Evil

GalakStarscraper - Mar 10, 2003 - 10:58 AM
Post subject:

Milo wrote:

I'll note that this skill has been around a long time -- Mummies always could get it -- and it has only been with the most recent review and the ability to apply it after the dice roll has been made that complaints have arisen. I think a rollback of this skill may be the ultimate fix.

Seriously Milo ... rolling this skill back would be a very simple solution to a new problem as you mentioned. One I can heartily agree with. I don't like the ST trait solution because unless you are playing the MBBL2, there just aren't that many ST skill in the first place.

So yes, you have my vote for change Piling On back to being declared before the AV roll and OH just so that it doens't get lumped in ... PLEASE leave Diving Tackle after the dice roll ... (its a good skill with that wording ... a marginal skill at best otherwise).

Galak

Tysonium - Mar 10, 2003 - 11:20 AM
Post subject: Piling On

It may be that I just don't like rules exceptions, but I think that all skills should be usable after the die roll. It keeps things much simpler, and provides much less haggle bait for rules lawyers.
My suggestion for Pile On would be a flat +3 to armor roll, go prone, roll before or after skill use. The skill becomes slightly more useful for ST 2 players, slightly less for ST 4+, but is still valuable.
Any thoughts?

Tyson

skummy - Mar 10, 2003 - 12:52 PM
Post subject:

Galak & Milo: Declaring before the roll is a solution, but is it the best one? Making an exception for just one skill is not appealing, and with the revised fouling rules PO would still be an automatic first skill for Mummies and Big Guys.

Earlier in the thread I proposed making the armor bonus for Piling On 1/2 the player's strength, rounded up. My reasoning was much the same as Tysonium's, except that I believe Big Guys and Mummies should should do more damage than an average player.

GalakStarscraper - Mar 10, 2003 - 01:07 PM
Post subject:

skummy wrote:

Galak & Milo: Declaring before the roll is a solution, but is it the best one? Making an exception for just one skill is not appealing

Actually you have to use Pass Block before the Pass roll. So it would not be the only exception.

Quote:

and with the revised fouling rules PO would still be an automatic first skill for Mummies and Big Guys.

I greatly disagree ... this wasn't the case in 3rd and yes, I know it had more agressive fouling, but before the AV roll you have a good chance of being prone a lot more than (about 45% more) than when the roll is after ... Block is looking a lot better to me at that point. Is it an automatic as it is now ... yup ... will it be if moved to BEFORE ... don't think so. Oh, and all my Big Guys on any team I've played get Pro as their first skill ... not Piling On even with the current rules.

Galak

Bevan - Mar 11, 2003 - 12:07 AM
Post subject:

GalakStarscraper wrote:

skummy wrote:

Galak & Milo: Declaring before the roll is a solution, but is it the best one? Making an exception for just one skill is not appealing

Actually you have to use Pass Block before the Pass roll. So it would not be the only exception.

It would not be an exception if you could not change a player's position after seeing the dice roll, which to me makes far more sense. This would impact on Diving Tackle which is not seen as a highly valuable skill so Diving Tackle would have to change yet again to beef it up a bit.

Tysonium - Mar 11, 2003 - 12:20 AM
Post subject: Piling On

My main reason to keep the bonus a constant was to keep math out of it altogether (yes, I know it's an incredibly simple calculation, but I hate doing even that much Smile

). With every Big Guy and Mummy starting with Mighty Blow, they are doing more damage than an average player anyway... since the Piling On bonus is greater, Mighty Blow would always apply to injury rolls.
As for the notion that Big Guys should break armor easier than ST 2 stunties, I originally thought about limiting the bonus to the lower of +3 or ST... then I realized it probably shouldn't matter (and was an added complication). While the Big Guy is using his massive bulk against the downed player, the Stunty is using his ability to get into hard-to-reach places to go for that devastating groin smash... Shocked

Tysonium

Quote:

Earlier in the thread I proposed making the armor bonus for Piling On 1/2 the player's strength, rounded up. My reasoning was much the same as Tysonium's, except that I believe Big Guys and Mummies should should do more damage than an average player.

GalakStarscraper - Mar 11, 2003 - 04:51 AM
Post subject:

Bevan wrote:

This would impact on Diving Tackle which is not seen as a highly valuable skill so Diving Tackle would have to change yet again to beef it up a bit.

Beven ... leave DT alone ... dang it I finally like the skill and think it balanced. By the way Zombie pointed out that Dump Off must be done before you see the Block dice, so that another exception. So Dump Off, Pass Block, and Piling On become the exceptions. I can handle that and I think Joe SixPack can too.

Everyone just leave Diving Tackle alone ... I'm in the process of giving it to all the Halflings on my team as I've discovered that I can mix it up pretty well with the bashy teams but not the dodge right through my defenses Elves. Just leave it be.

Galak

skummy - Mar 11, 2003 - 08:59 AM
Post subject:

Galak: I agree that DT should be left alone. You bring up a good point with Pass Block, but I still think you are devaluing Piling On. The fear of a Dirty Player foul kept people from Piling On as often. Now that rules have stiffened against the constant fouling, I'm seeing teams use the Piling On to replace the original DT tactic. It is not as effective as 3rd ed. Fouling, but it's still a great way to break armor and with Mighty Blow you've got a very good chance to take the player off the pitch.

martynq - Mar 11, 2003 - 10:56 AM
Post subject:

There does appear to be a problem with PO and a real arms-race going on. One problem is that we cannot all join in - not all teams have access to ST skills unlike with DP in 3rd edition.

Help!

Martyn

ZanzerTem - Mar 11, 2003 - 11:18 AM
Post subject:

Great, now nothing will change in my league. Hello people! The +5 bonus is the broken area. It is just to high, regardless of if you have to declare it before the AV roll.

Here are how coaches in my league currently use it:

1) ALWAYS declare Pile On -vs- armor, and Mighty Blow to injury.

2) As long as no snake eyes, armor is broke.

3) +1 to injury, GUARANTEED minimum of no action taken by victim next turn.

4) Rinse and repeat until the field is cleared.

Think about it. On average, at least 2 Str5, Mighty Blow people will be dropping opponents every turn. By the end of the 1/2, you figure that the opposing team will have 1/2 of their players off of the field.

Is no one listening to Skummy, Tysonium or myself?? REDUCE THE BONUS!

Problem solved. Far less AV broken, far less casualties, far less CHEESE.

GalakStarscraper - Mar 11, 2003 - 12:37 PM
Post subject:

BloodbasherMasher wrote:

4) Rinse and repeat until the field is cleared.

Think about it. On average, at least 2 Str5, Mighty Blow people will be dropping opponents every turn.

I'm sorry I must have missed the part where this was impossible because Prone players have to blitz to rinse and repeat and they are only allowed to do this once a turn and will have to GFI to even try it against an adjacent player. Declared before the AV roll, the Mummies will be prone 100% with every knockdown ... not 45% like it is now ... that's a lot of standing up to have to do with MA 3.

See ... I had Ogre teams in my old 3rd edition league .... 8 ST 5 players with MA 5 ... not 4 ST 5 players with MA 3. Didn't have issue with PoN when it was before the AV roll with that league. Sorry guys ... I have to see the proof in the details before I agree.

Galak

ZanzerTem - Mar 11, 2003 - 01:31 PM
Post subject:

Hmm, hard to make a statistical agruement on paper.....I guess you just have to experience it to believe it.

Fondu77 - Mar 12, 2003 - 05:32 AM
Post subject:

.........WHO CARE ..........PILLLLLLING ON.... on everybody
no question asked "before or after"......just Piling on.... to scare opponent

Babs - Mar 20, 2003 - 05:10 AM
Post subject:

Actually, the concept behind Tysonium's suggestion has already been suggested in a similar format at the BBRC level - but it's (extraordinary)early days.

For what it's worth, I really don't like DT in it's current format. I would not be upset at all if it was changed again, although I am against the concept of 'forever tinker'. Diving Tackle was originally a skill for elven team to prevent being blocked themselves (defensive mechanism). The new DT does exactly the opposite and is a boon to the 'pow' teams.

I'd like to see a new 'old DT' style skill, but that's mytake for another thread.

As to Piling On, I think that the way the skill currently works under LRB was an oversight, and only realised after the rules were out (in particular, the 'apply skill after roll rule')!!!!

A pretty gross oversight really. And we're seeing just how gross in our leagues and tournaments right now.

So I'd say 'house rule' for your life - I would actually recommend against leaving the skill as it stands right now.

BUD - Mar 24, 2003 - 11:53 PM
Post subject:

Well, I believe Piling On is becoming too popular or a skill and would frankly like to see less of it. I don't believe its overpowering but its too common. My solution would be to make it a strength trait... I'm sure that would allow us to see less Piling Ons out there... I'm a Dwarf Player and have 2 Piling On slayers, 1 piling on Ogre and a longbeard so I'm not an elf Smile

I'm just thinking in fairness of the game

- Bud

Doubleskulls - Mar 25, 2003 - 02:20 AM
Post subject:

Babs wrote:

Diving Tackle was originally a skill for elven team to prevent being blocked themselves (defensive mechanism).

But it never was. Under 3rd ed DT was always an AG skill for strength teams - anyone with St 4 or more loved it. DT mummies, drool...

skummy - Mar 25, 2003 - 07:07 AM
Post subject:

Ian: I believe it was intended to be so in the same way that fouling was intended to be an entertaining rule subset in 3rd edition. That is - it was a completely overpowering rule that didn't get tested well enough in playtesting.

Cidervampire - Mar 25, 2003 - 07:55 AM
Post subject:

Must admit that I used the piling on mummies at spikey and the bb. I think I was the only one who did that at spikey but now everybody is doing it. Personally I think it sucks but even choosing it before the AV roll its still probably gonna be my first choice. Probably making it a trait is the answer

skummy - Mar 25, 2003 - 08:05 AM
Post subject:

As much as I hate the tactic, I think that making it a Trait is a bad solution. There are currently only 4 strength skills, and reducing the number in that pool does not strike me as a good idea.

AnthonyTBBF - Mar 25, 2003 - 08:47 AM
Post subject:

At the Pandemonium Cup in January here in Toronto, everyone and their brother took Piling On. At Orion I changed it to the "decide before AV roll" version and hardly anyone took it (except my Chaos Warriors Wink

). I think it balanced things out nicely. We have been using it that way in our league for a while now too and things are much better.

Melifaxis - Mar 25, 2003 - 08:55 AM
Post subject:

That's how we use it in our league as well.

Shortarse - Mar 25, 2003 - 12:33 PM
Post subject:

Have to say before makes more sense. BUNDLES!!!!!!!!!!

Auciello - Mar 25, 2003 - 11:00 PM
Post subject:

Before.

Seems unfair otherwise.

Darkson - Mar 26, 2003 - 12:36 AM
Post subject:

I'm a convertee to the "before" camp.