This is an old conversation that would be better off on either TBB or the GW site.

I can't say I have any rl experience with an ogre team, but I'd imagine to become "developed" it would take 20+ games just to get the other ogres hired

Fielding 11 of them (as you can now) would be a very scary sight to see, but you'll never be able to handle the ball

An 11 man Ogre team handles the ball the same way Khemri do. You use your doubles to get Sure Hands instead of Block.

I play them with fun, so what the hell. As long as I can throw snotlings at players (*hint*) I won't mind. And hell, with stunty players getting access to Dauntless now, I can't wait to see my opponents face when a Snotling kills his best player instead of a goblin.

Is there any hope that this will not actually happen?

Why?

I like snotlings/titchy. We had an Ogre team with the current LRB rules in our league. after 20 matches they became so strong that they won every match plus partly destroying the opponent.

5. As already mentioned, these aren???t supposed to be a competitive team but a fun team like Halflings, if you want to win leaugues and tournies, then play Skaven or Undead

I dont want them as competative as a normal team, but saying you've only got a 1 in 4 chance of winning isnt good either.

There seems to be no real reason to play a team when the only asset is made null and void. Shrug.

I have no idea what you are speaking of. The Khemri team in the new rules is the same as the one in the LRB 4.0 and will stay that way.

Galak

Hmmm I was under the impression from the GW forum that they were losing General Skill access.... If not then I must have misread.

Well, in a "perfectly balanced" world every team has a 1 in 2 chance of winning any match. So having teams that generally win half as many games as Tier 1 teams seems reasonable to me.

I may play vampires next season, because I think it will be funny. I don't expect to win every game. I don't expect to win ANY game. I think it will be funny. And that's cool.

I really don't get the insistence that flings/gobbos whatever have to be as good as Orcs. All the background of the game is that they are rubbish and consistently lose. If you really embrace the 'fling fluff then you ought to expect for your whole team to die every game. In some bizarre way you ought to want your whole team to die, just as much as a Chaos team wants to kill the opposition. That's not to say you shouldn't be trying to win - just that you should expect defeat.

There seems to be no real reason to play a team when the only asset is made null and void. Shrug.

I really don't get the insistence that flings/gobbos whatever have to be as good as Orcs. All the background of the game is that they are rubbish and consistently lose. If you really embrace the 'fling fluff then you ought to expect for your whole team to die every game. In some bizarre way you ought to want your whole team to die, just as much as a Chaos team wants to kill the opposition. That's not to say you shouldn't be trying to win - just that you should expect defeat.

Fluff has no bearing on rules. Fluff is fluff, rules are rules

You've sprinkled the undead far and wide here, I dont see it as a problem.

Well, its the fluff that has made the various undead teams that you don't have a problem with. I mean, we might as well have varient Skaven teams with all their different clans, or go back to the days of Brettonian and Imperial teams. Maybe bring back Savage Orcs and stuff.

some teams just aren't ment to win. Yea, you'll win a few games, but if Halflings or Goblins win your league, then theres something wrong with the rest of the players in my opionion. We had a goblin team in the TBBF and he was doing pretty good, until my Orcs played him and killed 4 goblins and injured 4 others. That kinda stuff will happen to the teams eventually and then you're done.

I'm not sure what your league is like, but in ours, you can play multiple teams. So, why not play a team like this for fun.

One added note now that I have read the thread...

I am guessing that someone on the BBRC plays Khemri. Does anyone reaylly think that AG2 balances out four STR5 Players with General Access?

Why is it that the Ogre's are broken to the point that they can only have STR1 complementary players and that Mummies are A-OK? Is it Fluff? Is it because that are a jokety-joke team that is supposed to only win 25% of the time?

Please...someone direct me to the Khemri fluff that says they are supposed to be so competitive.

-Rob

P.S. The statement that the Gobbos are off of the Ogre team because ther already is a Goblin team should be brought to the attention to the person who keeps inventing Undead teams. I mean seriously how many of these variants do we need. I actually like them, but if that is being used as a justification to nerf the Ogre's further than let's please at least be consistant.

Our league allows one and only one team to be played. Now you see why I'd be a bit put off by the "lose 3 out of 4" games.

I'm just asking here, not geting on your case.

Accepting the fact that in a perfectly balanced rules set, any team should expect to lose 1 in 2 games, what level would you like to see the Tier 2 teams at?

Personally, I've no problem with expecting to lose 3 in 4 games with the lower teams - I play them for laughs/the challenge repectively, but I am interested in what you'd see as a "fair" level.

I'll just say this:

If you don't like the way the Vault/PBBL rules are heading, do what I'm doing and ignore them. Apart from the playtesting I've promised Galak (if he can ever get the time to finish the 2.6 tool version - poor sod!) and attending tourneys that use it (probably the majority) I won't be playing it. We're not going to use it at our club, and if I ever manage to get my tourney organized, it will be under LRB 4.0 rules, regardless of what the official rules are. There will be enough people out there that will either still play or know the old rules to be able to find some games. And if you're a league commish, it's even easier to dismiss them.

Please dont bring fluff in, or otherwise when you play marines I have to insist you only set up 10 marines. Fluff has no bearing on rules. Fluff is fluff, rules are rules.

General Skill access is the Khemri teams only asset? How about four STR5 blayers...blitzers and throwers. So they are AG2...the Throwers have Sure Hands to start...unlike Wood Elf throwers who certainly have "Surer Hands" than s a skeleton. And the Khemri Blitzers have STR Skill Access...unlike Wights, DE Blitzers, HE Blitzers, and Wardancers.

Seriously...why is the Khemri team beyond reproach?

-Rob

P.S. And Khaime...I know exactly how you feel in terms of buying a team and having the rulkes changed right out from under you. My 17 Ogres will attest to that. (And 18 or so Goblins...if you can trust what they say. )

P.S. The statement that the Gobbos are off of the Ogre team because ther already is a Goblin team should be brought to the attention to the person who keeps inventing Undead teams. I mean seriously how many of these variants do we need. I actually like them, but if that is being used as a justification to nerf the Ogre's further than let's please at least be consistant.

Just out of curiosity, where did this idea of tier 2 non stunty teams come from?

I guess I may be a bit optimistic in the way games can be balanced, but why couldn't certain teams just be better at certain things like they are now, but made so that almost everyone is on equal footing.

Please...someone direct me to the Khemri fluff that says they are supposed to be so competitive.

No problem. I dont see it as getting on my case.

If teir 1 lose 50% of the time, losing 60% of the time, or 65% of the time isnt bad. Less of a chance, but still a decent chance.

Losing 75% of the time really isnt acceptable.

In regards to the Flings ... I'm not sure why you are convinced they are so much worse in the new rules.

I guess I may be a bit optimistic in the way games can be balanced, but why couldn't certain teams just be better at certain things like they are now, but made so that almost everyone is on equal footing... Make it the Coach and not the teams sta line that makes the difference in a game.

Second: I'm going by the statements of losing 3 out of 4 games. You said thats true of current edition. Dont see it.

you can blame that on TBB to be perfectly honest.

Where does the fluff support that?

People screamed about it back then, but what is the player base consensus now?

I totally agree. You want to run and pass, play elves, you want to hit play orcs or dwarves. I don't agree with some of these proposed changes, especially what is planned for ogres. I mean, they are the biggest players in Blood Bowl (with the exception of treemen) why should they be so lousy?

Why not make a 0-8 ogre team with a lower agillity player. Maybe even make the ogres the primary ball handlers with a small race with a 2 str and 1 agillity. I know it sounds weird, and why would you want to play a team with such crap agillity. It would keep the team a true ogre team with the ogres not outnumbered by the secondary lineup, but would make the team less of a scoring force. They would be similar to khemri with the concern of ball handling, but would be able to take punishement with the ogres to offset the many rerolls wasted on picking up balls and or moving the ball around. I know this is probably a moot point but it would be nice to see what other people think. I'm just thinking of the coaches.

However due to massive and I really mean massive amount of screaming by a lot of coaches (not just a handful of loud ones), these 2 teams were not deleted from the game.

I'm not even going to run another poll to see. I know the tide has turned ... and a lot of folks would like to see some teams trimmed. But to be honest ... you'll find a very mixed bag of folks that would MUCH rather see the Khemri or Necro team deleted than the Undead who were supposed to go in the first place.

Ok! It´s an arguement if you say: They pay for their Ogres, so they want to play with all of them. I understand that it is very frustrating paying a lot of money for the Minis and the rulesupdate don´t allow to use them. But the question is: How can it function? Too many Ogres are damned bashing force and together with Gobbos an experienced Team is hard to stop. Your suggestion to use a small race with 2 str and 1 ag is a nice idea, but can´t be realized, because there is no race in the warhammer world with such attributes. So there is no other way to handle it like the way the new rules do, I think.

Hmmm I thought they were keeping warhammer and blodbowl worlds sort of seperated.

But never forget the background of the game and there are no great Khemri teams in Bloobowl history.

Apart from the Champions of Death, a Khemri team if ever there was one.

A Khemriteam where Ghouls and Vampires play (1st and 2nd Edition stuff told so ..."Did you know" stuff)? In these days only "Undead"-Teams existed. There was no difference between Khemri, Nekromantic and Undead, they were all the same.

well, you can also argue that the 2nd Ed Undead was all Skeletons, which pretty much screams Khemri

The LRB Ogre team is horribly broken in the long run. Since the new rules are supposed to work perpetually they had to be changed.

I'm sorry people got screwed by the change - but the LRB roster was ill conceived and need fixing. IMO it should never have become official.

plus the goblins now painted that are to be useless under vault rules.

But minis purchased should not be the driving force for making rules for a team especially when said the rules around the team have changed and playtesting has shown the team to have serious long term issues.

I would allow any coach that wanted to use Goblins for Snotling minis to do so. Even a GW tournament would allow this as they are still GW and still easily representive of the player they are for.

Sell your unpainted Ogres on eBay or something and you shouldn't be too far out of pocket. Heck, sell your painted Ogres & gobbos and I'm sure you'll make a handsome profit.

So you don't consider the investment into a game something that should at least be looked at for the rules? I mean it's all well and good to say e-bay unpainted mini's for a loss when your not the one having to sell them off for a loss..

I think you are missing the point of the argument. If the team is broken, it should have been realized as suchg long before they made it official and encouraged people to buy all the models.

The fact that they can't seem to "get it right" is frustrating to all of us who go out and buy the teams, only to find out that they are no longer playable under new rules.

Doubleskulls if only you and Galak are making the decisions then perhaps you should ask yourselves if making the changes the YOU TWO think are the best rather than what the majority of players want.

A lot of players I have spoken to recently feel that they are being ignored in a process that was supposed to include input from many coaches and that they're being TOLD 'no this is best for you'.

Maybe you should take a step back and look at that.

Andrew

This is an old conversation that would be better off on either TBB or the GW site.

This is the first time that BB has gone the Warhammer or 40k route and changed things wholesale.

I'm kinda curious, you keep bringing this up, and earlier mentioned your 4 unusable armies, but in the last 13 years that I've been playing GW games, I can only think of 1 case (Chaos Dwarfs in WFB) where they outright eliminated an army and made them unusable.

Yea, they're loosing their goblin players, oh well, its only 6 players. If you don't like it, don't play ogres.

Yea, they're loosing their goblin players, oh well, its only 6 players

If you don't like it, don't play ogres.

Skaven used to be able to have 2 Rat Ogres, now they only get 1. I've got 2 Rat Ogres, I spent time painting them, so why don't I raise a big fuss because I can't use all of them What else are you going to do to the Ogre team?

perhaps you should ask yourselves if making the changes the YOU TWO think are the best rather than what the majority of players want.

This is the first time that BB has gone the Warhammer or 40k route and changed things wholesale.

Spazzfist I think you are missing the point of the argument. If the team is broken, it should have been realized as suchg long before they made it official and encouraged people to buy all the models.

The fact that they can't seem to "get it right" is frustrating to all of us who go out and buy the teams, only to find out that they are no longer playable under new rules.

So far 22 votes saying in the end game balance is more important than money spent compared to 4 votes that the cash spent should be the major factor.

As for playtesting. Yes the team was playtested but sometimes certain issues don't come to light until you have hundreds of players playing a team. That's why we've had the Vault openly ask for playtesters to give us feedback on balance on the game and will spend 2 years from the start to the end of playtesting to try and find the problems. The change to the Ogre team is a direct result of feedback from the playtesters.

I've seen several realistically viable options for toning back the ogre team that don't involve destroying it. Most of these options have not even warranted a 'thanks but no-thanks' from the 'reviewers'. This is what is leading to player dissatisfaction with the whole process.

Someone can't access the other forums so I've unlocked it.

So yes I hear what you are saying ... but investment in miniatures is not a reason to not balance a team with an issue.

And once again, the GW machine keeps rolling. Sorry to sound cynical, but forthe most part, the "change in rules means you have to buy new minis" method of GW was mostly free in BB.

Geze, its only 1 team thats effected. You're ogres are still good, you gotta shell out for some Snotlings (which, last I checked are pretty cheep when you consider you get 10-20 of them in a pack) Its not like they're eliminating all the blitzers in the game.

Also, GW is a business right, they've gotta make money. Name any other game company that doesn't change the rules and make previous purchases out-dated.

What would you prefer, a team that is grossly overpowered that stays that way forever and ever amen becuase some people "already bought the minis"?

But you are misrepresenting the stats Galak...So if you want to look at it that way Galak, there are 22 people who say they do care about investment, which overrules your side of the fence as it were.

Maybe I should have said it earlier, but I agree with you that GW does a great job of screwing over their customers. They do eliminate armies, they do release new editions that makes some old figures redundant, but again, there are very few game companies that don't do this.

but, you still say that the Ogre team is "Compleatly Screwed" by this change. Prove it. Try out the PBBL rules, play an ogre team with Snotlings, and see how bad you do. Thats the whole point of these rules being up now is to play-test them isn't it? Stop whining about what you read and give it a shot. You may find out that the team is just as good. Yea, you're going to have to change your strategy because you can't have 10 Ogres on the field. Maybe, you will find that the team is compleatly screwed, and you can report your findings to the proper channels (the SG forums I believe) and the people who are making these rules can say, gee, maybe we should tweak this abit.

I can tell you right now, that the team as is, is broken. I'm playing them right now, I've got about 15 games in, and the team is a tank. My opponents usually leave the game with 5+ casualties against them, and I usually win because I take the numbers advantage.

All you've done is whine about the money you've spent, and to be quite honest, its getting alittle old. I think it'd be a bad policy to not fix something thats broken because people have spent money on it, now matter how much.

I'm sorry if you're out a few hundred doalrs on this. It sucks, its a GW move, but a game will be better off if they do whats right for the game, and not whats right for the players all the time.

Geze, its only 1 team thats effected.

More deaths = less tr = problem solved.

Also I'd like to point out that GW had nothing ... absolutely nothing to do with the changes to the Ogre or Nurgle teams.

These changes were driven by the PBBL playtesters and approved by Ian and I (for the Ogre team) and JJ and I (for the Nurgle team). GW had no hand in changing the rules and profit motives where never a part of the equation.

Also I have to agree with Deathwing ... getting a 16 man Ogre team now will only cost half to get for PBBL as it did for LRB 4.0.

Galak

It is also worth pointing out that yearly changes have been dropped in favour of only making changes when an entirely new edition is released. So there should be fairly long term stability with BB under PBBL, certainly more so than under the previous LRB system.


Also I don't think that it is fair to ask GW to avoid changing armies in favour of releasing new supplements when they make all their money on mini sales. For example I've heard it said by several people within GW that they don't actually make much profit, if any, on codexes and army books. (I don't know whether to believe it, but I've heard it said.) Plus there is a limit to the number of armies you can fit in the game. And how do you persuade people to buy a new version of an army book if nothing has changed?

These changes were driven by the PBBL playtesters and approved by Ian and I (for the Ogre team) and JJ and I (for the Nurgle team). GW had no hand in changing the rules and profit motives where never a part of the equation.

I'll now sit back and wait for Paul to misinterpret this message and tell me to again stop whining about money.

ALL coaches were invited to join the discussion on multiple occassions. This has been an open forum project since May 10, 2004. So as to what considerations were given to the coaches of existing teams ... they were all openly welcome to participate in the discussions on possible changes to their teams.

Did I miss this? Was there some announcement on NAF to let us know that there was going to be this discussion going on? If so, my apologies for missing it. But if not, then you can hardly say that ALL coaches were invited as we are a large part of the BB gaming community.

I don't know how final the vault rules are, but what about a mix of Goblin/Snotling players??

So yeah ... the posts were there Spazzfist ... I'm sorry you missed them.

As far as BB goes, there's always been change and/or evolution making figures redundant. Who else has 2 surplus Wights

Ogres from Dwarf/Orc teams?

I've got a team of (converted) snotlings from 4th ed days,

hell, even Daemon and Bretonnian teams were legal for a while

Unicorns for Amazons etc.

Try and apply some perspective.

Or you can do what I'm doing, which is to ignore the "official" Ogre team, and play a (imo) much more interesting one.



That's the one which will be in our league rulebook (though I might go 6/2/3/6 for the Gobs, and call 'em Knoblars, as I like those figs), and the one which will be in our tourney (if I ever gor it off the ground).

I do agree with ABigwood though - wheter of not it had anything to do with GW, to those that "aren't in the know" it will just look like another case of GW screwing over it's customers.

This is similar team that I suggested (this one's better). But the die has been cast I'm afraid. We'll get what we're given and like it!

That's not a bad team.. The RS makes the lone ogres really unreliable, and the ogre blitzers are the only one chucking gobbies. Plus I'm assuming that since your line ogres are "Big Guys" they can't use rerolls.. I actually like the idea of this team. It seems more like an ogre team and not a snotling team..

One of the reasons that it never stood a chance was that JJ reckoned it would be to difficult to tell the RS Ogres from the BH ones. Well, that "might" have been an issue (though total bollox if you ask me), but with those very nice Ogre Kingdom plastics out now, it would be a perfect time to bring it back. Of course, the fact that OK plastics would go on the balance sheet for WFB and not for Fanatic makes it a complete non-starter;).

Yeah that's true at home. But at tournament level you're stuck with the piss-poor 'official' list. I just don't get why the team had to be utterly crippled to make it 'balanced'. But what do I know I only buy the product and play the game. I'm not the one that should be happy with rules now am I?

I guess wheter a "varient" Ogre list would be acceptable at a tourney is a) up to the TO, and b) up to the NAF officials (for ranking purposes).

I guess wheter a "varient" Ogre list would be acceptable at a tourney is a) up to the TO, and b) up to the NAF officials (for ranking purposes).

I guess that's my way of saying ... just because you think the team is worse doesn't mean everyone else does.

I think that that is an unfair assumption that you are making. Just because people are choosing the team does not mean they like the changes made to them. Maybe they are choosing the team to see if it is really as bad as we fear.

Oh, there's a good idea. Don't you think the rankings are a big enough joke without adding variant rosters into the mix?

Just on the rankings. As far as I am concerned you can allow squirrel teams in your tournaments if you want (I'm sure Galak has a list somewhere ) but there is no way any unofficial team should count for ranking purposes so games including them would not be included. That was the rule for all the "experimental" teams and I see no reason to change it.

BTW. I don't think I've ever read a more smug, 'told you so!' post as yours Galak. Well done.

The rules rules allow Snotlings to land and knock down other players

I havn't read the rules yet, but are you saying we're going to be allowed to throw players directly at the opposing team now?????

If so, then you can make em st 0 snotlings, I don't care, I'm playing them.

Andrew ... geesch ... that post wasn't meant to be smug.