NAF World Headquarters
North America - Death Bowl Rules Preview
CyberHare - Aug 10, 2004 - 01:07 PM
Post subject: Death Bowl Rules Preview
I've pretty much hammered out the rules for this years Death Bowl tournament. There are a number of little changes from last year and a couple of big changes such as the addition of a round of BB 7's.
I'll leave them open for debate for the next couple weeks. At least until I get back from GenCon.
You can check the rules out here. Either post comments here or at the House Rulez Forum.
Melifaxis - Aug 10, 2004 - 01:28 PM
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If I just type in www.house-rulez.com or try to click on alink in the forum I get a white screen that says:
You can't access this file directly...
Zombie - Aug 10, 2004 - 01:41 PM
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I don't see any rules, just a bunch of stuff about angels and whatnot with this at the bottom of the page :
Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /mnt/web_j/d02/s14/a00090l9/www/modules/Sections/index.php on line 180
CyberHare - Aug 10, 2004 - 02:47 PM
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Yes I'm sorry. Of course as soon as I release a preview of the rules something goes screwy with the website. The site itself is ok but something seems to be wrong with the rules script. If I can't get it fixed soon I'll post the rules here.
Sorry about this.
Melifaxis - Aug 10, 2004 - 02:58 PM
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I seem to be able to use the site fine now 
CyberHare - Aug 10, 2004 - 05:43 PM
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Yeah the site was an easy fix, it's the tournament module that seems to be f'd. Sigh..
All well here's the rules in a flat HTML file for now.
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 10, 2004 - 07:13 PM
Post subject: Getting Excited
Guys-
After looking over the Death Bowl Tournament format/rules, I'm pretty psyched to attend. Unfortunately, I don't know if I can afford to attend both this and the Baltimore event in November. Can someone PM me with some inexpensive travel/accomodations options for this?
Thanks in advance. -Rob
Zombie - Aug 10, 2004 - 08:29 PM
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Questions :
1. Because there are 2 balls in play, you can make 2 passes as long as it's not with the same ball. In overtime when there's 3 balls, can you make 3 passes?
2. Can you make 2 TTM as long as it's not the same player being thrown twice?
3. Orcs are not allowed goblins in the BB7 game?
4. If a player cannot take part in the BB7 game (because of the positional restrictions or the 10 max players), is he still elligible for the skill roll after that game?
5. Does the master chef steal rerolls from all 3 opponents in the final game? If i steal 3 rerolls, is that 3 from each opponent, 1 from each or 3 total distributed how i see fit?
6. Do all CAS count towards the smackdown bonus, or only those that would have given 2 SPPs?
7. Are you sure it's a good idea to give as many points for a loss by one TD as for a draw? Shouldn't draws be worth 40 points, so that the points to TD differential goes 60 for +2, 50 for +1, 40 for 0, 30 for -1, 20 for -2 instead of 60, 50, 30, 30, 20?
8. How come mummies and big guys have no general skill access? I thought you hated the vault rules...
CyberHare - Aug 11, 2004 - 04:59 AM
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Rod as soon as I get the site working there will be a list of places to stay. The motel where most of the guy's stayed last year is fairly inexpensive, $70 or so Canadian per night, and includes a real breakfast. Not just a muffin and juice. I believe Mel is thinking of traveling up here for the tourney. Mybe you guy's can travel together to cut costs.
On the note of cutting costs if there are any Montreal area coaches who are interested in offering a place to stay please let me know.
CyberHare - Aug 11, 2004 - 05:28 AM
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Zombie I can always count on you to come up with some good questions.
Zombie wrote:
1. Because there are 2 balls in play, you can make 2 passes as long as it's not with the same ball. In overtime when there's 3 balls, can you make 3 passes?
Yes you can make as many passes as there are balls in play. That said If you manage to get and hold on to all three balls in overtime it would be a small miracle in itself. Though after they crazy game you guy's had last year I wouldn't say it was impossible 
Note this is for the Death Bowl round only
Zombie wrote:
2. Can you make 2 TTM as long as it's not the same player being thrown twice?
If your team has 2 balls you can make 2 TTM as long as it's not the same player being thrown twice. Note this is for the Death Bowl round only
Zombie wrote:
3. Orcs are not allowed goblins in the BB7 game?
That's a typo. 0-2 Goblins
Zombie wrote:
4. If a player cannot take part in the BB7 game (because of the positional restrictions or the 10 max players), is he still elligible for the skill roll after that game?
No they are not.
Zombie wrote:
5. Does the master chef steal rerolls from all 3 opponents in the final game? If i steal 3 rerolls, is that 3 from each opponent, 1 from each or 3 total distributed how i see fit?
If you have payed for the 2 extra chances to steal re-rolls and you manage to steal all 3 re-rolls then you would recieve 1 reroll from 3 randomly determined coaches. You would not get 9 rerolls!
Zombie wrote:
6. Do all CAS count towards the smackdown bonus, or only those that would have given 2 SPPs?
I'm not sure to be honest. Most if not all tournaments only allow the SPP casualties. I tend to lean towards allowing any casualties if only for simplicity sake. Also this is the Death Bowl, we want a lot of dead players I'd like to hear people's opinions on this. I'm open to either way.
Zombie wrote:
7. Are you sure it's a good idea to give as many points for a loss by one TD as for a draw? Shouldn't draws be worth 40 points, so that the points to TD differential goes 60 for +2, 50 for +1, 40 for 0, 30 for -1, 20 for -2 instead of 60, 50, 30, 30, 20?
In the new way of doing things you only get 10 points for the loss and 20 for the tie. I don't like that as it's a very big change in standings per turn. This sytem allows the winner to get an edge over the competition but not so much of an edge that he's impossible to catch after three rounds. I've seen this system work well in many tournaments and I like it. Unless there's a really good reason to change it I don't think I will. Besides, you won last year under this system 
8. How come mummies and big guys have no general skill access? I thought you hated the vault rules...[/quote]
Hate is a strong word but it's true that I'm almost there for the Vault rules. That said, after attending many a tournament and discussing the matter with some who have been to even more tournaments than myself I believe this is a good idea. Strength 5 players need a slight toning down for tournament play. Especially on teams like the Kemri where you get 4 of them 
Not allowing them access to General skills simply means they won't be able to take block. Beyond that you never really see them take anything else. I think that without block they'll be just enough of a liability to make coaches a little more cautious with them.
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 11, 2004 - 11:24 AM
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karllager....if I come up from D.C., I'm sure I can pick u up along the way.
Ken
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 11, 2004 - 11:30 AM
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CyberHare wrote:
Especially on teams like the Kemri where you get 4 of them
Not allowing them access to General skills simply means they won't be able to take block. Beyond that you never really see them take anything else. I think that without block they'll be just enough of a liability to make coaches a little more cautious with them.
I never took block on my mummies 
I did take tackle on one mummy for my last game because I HATE HATE HATE amazons 
I think it's more of an issue on "regular" teams taking a big guy where it's an additional positional player.
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 11, 2004 - 11:57 AM
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CyberHare wrote:
Zombie wrote:
6. Do all CAS count towards the smackdown bonus, or only those that would have given 2 SPPs?
I'm not sure to be honest. Most if not all tournaments only allow the SPP casualties. I tend to lean towards allowing any casualties if only for simplicity sake. Also this is the Death Bowl, we want a lot of dead players
I'd like to hear people's opinions on this. I'm open to either way.
I've always been a fan of counting all cas's. It let's a team that decides to foul their way back into the most cas trophy a chance. Fans' don't care where a foul comes from (I hate the latest ff ruling from bbrc) and we aren't playing for spp's.
Zombie - Aug 11, 2004 - 01:58 PM
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CyberHare wrote:
If you have payed for the 2 extra chances to steal re-rolls and you manage to steal all 3 re-rolls then you would recieve 1 reroll from 3 randomly determined coaches. You would not get 9 rerolls!
I'm not talking about the rerolls you get. I know you get just 3! I'm talking about the rerolls you take away.
Maybe my choice of words wasn't ideal. The way the rules look now, you don't steal rerolls anymore. For example, you'd get extra rerolls even if the opponent has no more rerolls to lose. The acts of getting extra rerolls and of taking away rerolls from the opponent are completely separate now.
So wouldn't it make sense that each opponent lose 3 and that you get 3?
Zombie - Aug 11, 2004 - 02:02 PM
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CyberHare wrote:
I'm not sure to be honest. Most if not all tournaments only allow the SPP casualties. I tend to lean towards allowing any casualties if only for simplicity sake. Also this is the Death Bowl, we want a lot of dead players
I'd like to hear people's opinions on this. I'm open to either way.
Just like in my league we've always counted all CAS for the FF bonus (for simplicity's sake and because the fans don't care where the violence came from as long as there was plenty of it), i'd rather all CAS count towards the smackdown bonus.
However, in the final game, it could be tricky to decide which opponent to award a CAS to. For example, if one of my player dodges away from two opponents and dies in the process, who gets the casualty? Both? Roll randomly? How about when you fall down on a GFI?
Zombie - Aug 11, 2004 - 02:06 PM
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If you're taking the no general access from the vault rules, why didn't you apply it to bull centaurs too like the vault does? Not that i'd like that either mind you, i'd rather stay as far away from those dreadful rules as possible.
Melifaxis - Aug 11, 2004 - 02:28 PM
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A failed dodge, GFI, a bad TTM landing on the turf, should not result in a CAS IMHO
Fouling is ok and the crowd is ok. Now a TTM that hits another player and results in a CAS...that I'm open for allowing on both sides
CyberHare - Aug 11, 2004 - 03:37 PM
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gken1 wrote:
I never took block on my mummies
I don't think you needed it in the second game. It would have come in helpfull in that first game though. Those three dice you going down blocks were painfull to watch. Really they were.
CyberHare - Aug 11, 2004 - 03:39 PM
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gken1 wrote:
I've always been a fan of counting all cas's. It let's a team that decides to foul their way back into the most cas trophy a chance. Fans' don't care where a foul comes from (I hate the latest ff ruling from bbrc) and we aren't playing for spp's.
Fouling, DOH, I forgot to add the modified IGMEOY. I'll add that in now.
CyberHare - Aug 11, 2004 - 03:45 PM
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How about this for Casualties. Any casualty where the offence was directly involved in causing the casualty counts for the casualty total. Thus GFI's or bad TTM's would not count as the offence is not involved. Dodges and pushing offside would as the offence either pushed you off the field or caused you to fail the dodge, well sort of. Thoughts?
Zombie - Aug 11, 2004 - 04:05 PM
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A goblin thrown onto the ball carrier and killing him doesn't directly involve the offence?
Also, if the opponent forced the dodge roll, it could be argued that they also forced the GFI that you used to get away from them. For simplicity's sake, either include everything, or only include SPP-awarding CAS.
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 11, 2004 - 04:17 PM
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I don't think that failed dodges or GFI's should count, as the opponent did not directly cause the injury. However, everything else goes. Fouls are kind of obvious...the crowd should count, as the hapless victim was pushed there for just that purpose...TTM I think should also count. It is possible that the flying Gobbo/Fling was thrown with an intent to injure. Even if it was by accident the injury was the direct result of the BigGuy who made the toss.
This would also clear up what counts and who gets credit for the CASs in the DeathBowl.
Just the opinion of a grudge-bearing, bitter dwarf.
-Rob
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 11, 2004 - 04:26 PM
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CyberHare wrote:
It would have come in helpfull in that first game though. Those three dice you going down blocks were painfull to watch. Really they were.
it would have stopped a couple rr's or turnovers....ugh that was a painful game. 
<---disgusting to a mummy. But I don't think it would've helped me.....i still need a push on one occasion and block wouldn't have helped me knock down any of your 10 blodgers.......................................................arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
If anything remove general access from amazon lineman 
Zombie - Aug 11, 2004 - 04:39 PM
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If you have both balls, can you make one normal pass and one TTM? This would allow goblin and orc teams to score in one turn in the final, though the chance of it happening would be infinitesimal.
CyberHare - Aug 11, 2004 - 07:05 PM
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Zombie wrote:
If you have both balls, can you make one normal pass and one TTM? This would allow goblin and orc teams to score in one turn in the final, though the chance of it happening would be infinitesimal.
Short answer yes. The long answer is that you could not pass a ball, catch it and then TTM the player that caught the ball. You can only make one pass action with each ball. You can not transfer the pass action for one ball to the other.
Hmm I'm still undecided about the casualties. I see what you're saying Zombie about it not being that clear and it should be clear. I'm leaning towards counting SPP Casualties, Fouls and Crowd Casualties. Leaving out Dodging, GFI's, and anyhting else alltogether.
Zombie - Aug 11, 2004 - 07:11 PM
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I was thinking more of the following :
1. A player picks up one ball at centerfield.
2. The troll moves up one square and throws a goblin 10 more squares.
3. Another player picks up the second ball and throws it to the goblin.
4. The goblin runs the remaining 9 squares using sprint and sure feet.
Remember that a TTM doesn't need to involve a ball at all.
CyberHare - Aug 11, 2004 - 07:39 PM
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Ok but why would you need 2 balls for that? You could do that without the first pickup as in any normal game.
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 11, 2004 - 07:46 PM
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no you couldn't. you could throw a goblin or pass the ball.
Melifaxis - Aug 11, 2004 - 08:21 PM
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I would say you need two balls...
twist - Aug 12, 2004 - 01:21 AM
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Looking forward to coming to the DB again this year, Cyberhare, after being away from the game for too long this summer. Last years was a blast, I'm sure a bunch of us from Toronto will be there once again to screw things up.
Zombie - Aug 12, 2004 - 01:22 AM
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After thinking about it, there's a solution if you want to include TTM in the limits without moving a single ball too much. You can rule that the ball cannot be thrown or handed off to a player who has already been thrown himself, and that a player who has already received a pass or a handoff in the same turn can't be thrown after that. Add to this not throwing or handing off the same ball twice and not throwing the same player twice and i think you'd be covering all the possibilities! And don't forget to mention that the total number of TTM, normal passes and handoffs put together cannot exceed the number of balls in your possession, or 1 if you don't have any ball.
This would render illegal the play that i talked about earlier.
This is getting pretty complicated though so you may want to either exclude TTM from the equation altogether in some way, or allow the above play which does move the ball more than would otherwise be possible.
CyberHare - Aug 12, 2004 - 04:53 AM
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gken1 wrote:
no you couldn't. you could throw a goblin or pass the ball.
Ok I see what you're saying now. Yeah you would need 2 balls as the thrown player counts as your pass action. Sure this play is "possible" but I'm not going to make rules for every possible cheesy play. You all can sort that out on the pitch by pounding said opponent into the astro-granite
CyberHare - Aug 12, 2004 - 05:00 AM
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twist wrote:
Looking forward to coming to the DB again this year, Cyberhare, after being away from the game for too long this summer. Last years was a blast, I'm sure a bunch of us from Toronto will be there once again to screw things up.
You guy's didn't screw things up. We owe you guy's a big thank you for making sure the title stays here in Montreal Though I'm sure that if that situation comes up again this year the MTL coach won't be so fortunate.
Twist if you wouldn't mind doing me a favor. Could you please let the other TBBF coaches know about the Death Bowl. It'll be on the 16th and 17th of October. I know you guy's have been kinda slow for the past few months and I wouldn't want any of you guy's to hear about the dates at the last minute. Let me know if you get a rough head count of who's interested in coming.
Melifaxis - Aug 12, 2004 - 05:16 AM
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twist wrote:
Looking forward to coming to the DB again this year, Cyberhare, after being away from the game for too long this summer. Last years was a blast, I'm sure a bunch of us from Toronto will be there once again to screw things up.
Maybe this year I'll get to kick your butt 
Buffalo_Chris - Aug 12, 2004 - 06:33 AM
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Bonjour Cyber
How many poeple had comfirmed for the DB? From Our ligue in montreal they will be at least 5 guys.. (counting me and SBG).
Gken : My elfs are waiting for you
Thanks
CyberHare - Aug 12, 2004 - 07:20 AM
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No one has officially confirmed yet. I'll be officially announcing the tourney as soon as I get the website fixed. Hopefully people will be ablt to register online.
But you 5 make a good start
Clan_Skaven - Aug 12, 2004 - 07:37 AM
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Oct 16 & 17 is great for me, so you know I'm in!
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 12, 2004 - 03:00 PM
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Buffalo_Chris wrote:
Gken : My elfs are waiting for you
Thanks
You'll have to get in line my friend!!! Besides...the Humans have something in store for the Elves!!! 
-Rob
Melifaxis - Aug 12, 2004 - 03:17 PM
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Just primed up a necro cheerleader, and two other special surprises as re-roll counters.
Muahahahahahahaha
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 12, 2004 - 03:43 PM
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man....humans and elves want to play me....I guess I'll have to bring the khemri up....can't turn down matches against those puny teams
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 12, 2004 - 03:47 PM
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gken1 wrote:
CyberHare wrote:
Especially on teams like the Kemri where you get 4 of them
Not allowing them access to General skills simply means they won't be able to take block. Beyond that you never really see them take anything else. I think that without block they'll be just enough of a liability to make coaches a little more cautious with them.
I never took block on my mummies
I did take tackle on one mummy for my last game because I HATE HATE HATE amazons
I think it's more of an issue on "regular" teams taking a big guy where it's an additional positional player.
Proof khemri aren't a problem with general access on mummies:
http://www.bloodbowl.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1479
but cd's, lizzies, undead---hmmm.
Zombie - Aug 12, 2004 - 04:07 PM
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Nevermind this post.
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 12, 2004 - 05:37 PM
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gken1 wrote:
man....humans and elves want to play me....I guess I'll have to bring the khemri up....can't turn down matches against those puny teams
As Paulie said to Apollo Creed in Rocky II..."I don't sweat you!!"
-Rob
CyberHare - Aug 12, 2004 - 08:18 PM
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Hooo boy this is lookin to be a good tourney.
Now lets see how many lads from TO will be back this year for a little revenge.
Zombie - Aug 12, 2004 - 09:23 PM
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Revenge against whom, themselves?
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 12, 2004 - 09:59 PM
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Well after beating Canadians in Two American tournaments in finals game, it's time I went to Canada and steal one of theirs
Zombie - Aug 12, 2004 - 10:41 PM
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Yeah right! These things only happen the other way around. There's a reason why Canada's average ranking is so high and USA's is so low.
Old_Man_Monkey - Aug 13, 2004 - 05:07 AM
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Number of NAF coaches? I mean full marks to Dennis and Kevin for cleaning up everything in house but that hardly settles the issue...
This could finally be JKL's tourney if he decides to attend Spike...
Clan_Skaven - Aug 13, 2004 - 05:39 AM
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Old_Man_Monkey wrote:
Number of NAF coaches? I mean full marks to Dennis and Kevin for cleaning up everything in house but that hardly settles the issue...
This could finally be JKL's tourney if he decides to attend Spike...
Errrmmm, are we forgetting someone? We all know I'm due for a Tourney win! Be it GenCon the Spike or the DeathBowl!
Hey one can dream, can't he?
CyberHare - Aug 13, 2004 - 06:21 AM
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gken1 wrote:
Well after beating Canadians in Two American tournaments in finals game, it's time I went to Canada and steal one of theirs
Yeah Yeah you just remember there Mummy boy that you were also handed your only tourney defeat by a Canadian. 
The Champioinship match is a lot more than game skill or even luck of the dice. It's also about politics and people skills. Just ask Zombie. We all thought he was going to get squashed by the thre TO guy's. There were a couple of "poor Steve" heard going into the last round. In the end the TO guy's turned on each other leaving Zombie to steal the title. 
Poor Denis got the major shaft. I believe he's still looking for revenge on his fellow Torontonians after last years mess.
Zombie - Aug 13, 2004 - 07:43 AM
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Old_Man_Monkey wrote:
Number of NAF coaches? I mean full marks to Dennis and Kevin for cleaning up everything in house but that hardly settles the issue...
Canadians facing other Canadians doesn't affect the average rating for Canada. Only playing against other nationalities does.
Old_Man_Monkey - Aug 13, 2004 - 04:42 PM
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As of June 9 2004:
Canada average CR: 153.63
US average CR: 150.14
Hardly "so high" or "so low"...
Melifaxis - Aug 13, 2004 - 06:14 PM
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46 Canadain rankings and 130 US...much harder to get 130 ratings to be >150 than 46...
Zombie - Aug 13, 2004 - 06:15 PM
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Compared with other countries, it's a pretty big difference.
Old_Man_Monkey - Aug 13, 2004 - 07:02 PM
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Naw, not really... the nations ranked above 150 make up 65% of the overall rankings so far more of a grouping near the center...
Zombie - Aug 13, 2004 - 08:20 PM
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Melifaxis wrote:
46 Canadain rankings and 130 US...much harder to get 130 ratings to be >150 than 46...
Much harder to get 46 rankings in a country with 30 million people than to get 130 in a country 10 times that size. If anything, i would expect the US rankings to reflect a more elite group than ours, since it's a smaller proportion of your coaches who actually have rankings. So this should give you an edge and make your average rankings higher, and yet they aren't.
Old_Man_Monkey - Aug 13, 2004 - 08:30 PM
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False premise, so error in expectations...
Enough of this banter... we'll see over the next few tournaments.
Just plan on coming to the Spike and the Deathbowl, Zombie my friend!
Zombie - Aug 13, 2004 - 08:39 PM
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Don't worry, i'll make sure that these trophies stay in Canada. Even if i fail, i'm sure the TBBF crew will come through for us (if they don't backstrab one another like we know they can).
Zombie - Aug 19, 2004 - 08:36 PM
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I've seen somewhere on the web BB7 rules which didn't allow team rerolls. Your rules don't say anything about those. Are we to assume that teams can use TRR in the BB7 round?
Zombie - Aug 22, 2004 - 09:05 PM
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Are undead, kemri, necromantic and nurgle teams allowed to raise the dead? It doesn't say they can't so i'm assuming the answer is yes.
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 23, 2004 - 08:10 AM
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khemri can't raise dead, Nurgle doesn't matter since it occurs after the game and rosters reset after the game.
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 23, 2004 - 08:25 AM
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Ken-
Regarding Nurgle, I thought that most Tourney's allowed the "extra" Rotter to be taken during the match that it was "created."
I'm still a tourney neophite, but that is what I was told. Either way it didn't sound like a hard and fast rule, so I'm sure it would be decided by the tournament organizer.
-Rob
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 23, 2004 - 08:28 AM
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it wouldn't be unbalancing for nurgle teams to get the rotter, because:
1. almost nobody plays rotters
2. it's gotta be a KILL with the BEAST
but the official rule is that the rotter joins the team after the game. Haven't seen any tourney's that have ruled otherwise.
CyberHare - Aug 24, 2004 - 01:35 PM
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Zombie wrote:
I've seen somewhere on the web BB7 rules which didn't allow team rerolls. Your rules don't say anything about those. Are we to assume that teams can use TRR in the BB7 round?
Yes you can use team re-rolls during the BB7's round
Quote:
Are undead, kemri, necromantic and nurgle teams allowed to raise the dead? It doesn't say they can't so i'm assuming the answer is yes.
From the section on "Star Players & Wizards"...
"Undead and Necromatic Teams have of course a Necromancer as their Head Coach. Unfortunately their ability to raise the dead will not work on players killed during this tournament. The Dark Angels have their own plans for the tournament dead. Their ability to regenrate their own players though will work for the first 5 rounds of play."
I'll add that Nurgle teams may not take an extra rotter.
Zombie - Aug 24, 2004 - 02:02 PM
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Sorry about that last one, i forgot about that part! 
This brings up another question though. Regeneration is now (LRB 3.0) related to the player only, and not the coach. So the coach can be missing and players can still regenerate. So the statement about necromancers having the "ability to regenerate their own players" is misleading. Unless you want to change that rule!
Melifaxis - Aug 26, 2004 - 07:12 AM
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gken1 wrote:
it wouldn't be unbalancing for nurgle teams to get the rotter, because:
1. almost nobody plays rotters
2. it's gotta be a KILL with the BEAST
but the official rule is that the rotter joins the team after the game. Haven't seen any tourney's that have ruled otherwise.
The Beantown Brouhaha will have this rule next year.
No one was playing Rotters this year or it would have been in there this year. Rob O. brought it up about a week before the tourney but was definitely bringing humans.
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 27, 2004 - 01:04 PM
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Brian-
Halfling Master Chef Question...
I have seen where some tournaments make the Halfling Team pay for the HMC as a wizard, and some that treat him as a coach. (So that he comes for free.) I see that you have the cost of the extra ingredients in your rules, but no cost associated with the chef himself.
Does that mean he is free?
Thanks. -Rob
Zombie - Aug 27, 2004 - 01:18 PM
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He's free in the LRB, and the tournament is based on the LRB. So unless stated otherwise, he's free!
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 27, 2004 - 01:51 PM
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Zombie-
Spike! is also based on LRB 3, but the Chef costs 150K there. Obviously if there is no special rule for him in the Deathbowl rules, it stands to reason that he's free. However, I would rather the tournament organizer's authoritative answer...rather that the assumption of another participant. No offense, but I have the guesswork part covered... I want Brian to tell me definatively what, if any cost there might be for him.
While on the subject of the Halflings...I have a related question on the Bloodbowl 7's portion of the tournament. The special rule that you have regarding Big Guy's in the 7's game will only effect the Halfling and Goblin team. They are the only teams that can have more than one Big Guy...cutting out the only STR players on their team in half while allowing the "regular" teams to keep theirs is not really fair.
I don't know if you'd be willing to make a change here, but I think it would be more fair to either let the Halflings/Gobs have both, or not allow the other teams to have any Big Guys.
Imagine a CD 7's team with a Minataur, a Bull Centaur, 2 Linemen and 3 Hobgoblins against one Treeman and six halflings. I know that halflings are not supposed to be directly equal, but with only one treemen there is no balance between these two. Moreover, the Halflings/Gobs are not just fighting an up-hill battle...they are completely outgunned.
The only reason that I am making this pitch, is that I am seriously considering Halflings as the team that I'll use at your Tournament. The 7's game is only one game in 5, but the points lost in this game might be enough for me to reconsider which team I pick.
Sorry for the long-winded post. -Rob
Zombie - Aug 27, 2004 - 01:59 PM
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Actually, it's one game in 6, and it's worth about 4 times less than any other game, which makes it less than 5% of the total tournament points! Painting alone has as much value as the BB7 game!
Still it's true that such a game vs chaos dwarf would be no fun at all. Hey Brian, give him both treemen!
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 27, 2004 - 02:02 PM
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Actually...one other thing to factor in is that the Treeman might not even show up for the first half. 
By the time he shows up...he might not have anyone else alive on his team.
-Rob
Melifaxis - Aug 27, 2004 - 02:23 PM
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That would be a RIOT 
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 27, 2004 - 03:00 PM
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OK...I have another question regarding the 7's portion of the DeathBowl Tourney. Is the reduced roster made up of players from the regular tourney team, and do the assigned skills carry over for use in the BB7 match?
Sorry to make things difficult, but I am just now getting a chance to print out and read the DeathBowl rules and these are a couple of things that came to mind.
Thanks. -Rob
Melifaxis - Aug 27, 2004 - 03:02 PM
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Yes, that one I saw Brian clarify somewhere already
Zombie - Aug 27, 2004 - 03:06 PM
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You should read the other thread here with Deathbowl questions. There's another one i asked about the master chef that you'll find interesting.
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 27, 2004 - 03:17 PM
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Zombie-
I can't find it...could you set me up with a link?
Thanks in advance. -Rob
Zombie - Aug 27, 2004 - 03:41 PM
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There were two threads started by Clan-Skaven that are just a little bit further down this page. But my question about the master chef is actually in this very thread!
CyberHare - Aug 27, 2004 - 03:54 PM
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Hey this is great. A lot of talk going on about the Death Bowl.
All right let's take it from the top.
There's no reason that regeneration should be tied to the player. It's the coach Necromancer that does all that work. Perhaps that's a fluff answer but if you loose your head coach you can not regenerate.
You do not have to pay for the Halfling Chef, he is considered as your head coach. But as such if you loose your head coach on an "Argue the call" you also loose your chef. You do have to pay for the extra attempts to steal re-rolls.
BgGuy's - Rob you do make a point. As Zombie said this years BB7's round is for reduced points. Not quite as little as he made it out to be but still reduced This year is meant to work out the bugs and next year it'll be worth full points. I'm going to think about this and see if anyone else has an opinion on it. You're right though that there's a bit of unbalance there.
The BB7's roster is made up of players from the roster you've been using all tourney. Consider it more as choosing who will sit out this match instead of making a new roster. Anyone who has a skill keeps it. It'll also make skill choice a little more interesting as if you've given all you position players skills they may not all be able to be in the 7's round due to roster limitations.
Zombie - Aug 27, 2004 - 04:18 PM
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CyberHare wrote:
There's no reason that regeneration should be tied to the player. It's the coach Necromancer that does all that work. Perhaps that's a fluff answer but if you loose your head coach you can not regenerate.
That's the old rule. They changed that in LRB3.0 (or was that LRB2.0). Are you saying that you reject this new rule? If so, you have to specify that in your rule pack as it says that we'll be using LRB3.0 unless otherwise noted.
Zombie - Aug 27, 2004 - 04:23 PM
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CyberHare wrote:
As Zombie said this years BB7's round is for reduced points. Not quite as little as he made it out to be but still reduced
Normal round :
min points = 20 (lose by 2+ TDs, no more CAS than opponent)
max points = 70 (win by 2+ TDs, more CAS than opponent)
total points up for grab = 50
BB7 :
min points = 10 (lose)
max points = 20 (win)
total points up for grab = 10
So you see, i was actually giving it more weight than it deserved when i said 4 times less value. The actual value is in fact 5 times less than a normal round!
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 30, 2004 - 02:33 PM
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Brian-
Any update on the BB7's / BigGuy Ruling?
I don't really expect to be in the running for winning the tourney, and I don't know if the Halflings can really hang in this context, but my competitive-side wants to know if the playing field will be a level one before making a choice about race. (October probably gives me enough time to prepare a whole "new" team...I just wanted to be sure that any modeling/painting would be toward completing a tournament team.)
Please let me know as soon as you can...that is unless you fear the "Belly Busters"
-Rob
CyberHare - Aug 31, 2004 - 12:45 PM
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KarlLagerbottom wrote:
Any update on the BB7's / BigGuy Ruling?
While I see your point about Halflings getting completely screwed if their tree doesn't show up I see them being way too strong if by chance they both show up. 2 tree's on the field is a lot to contend with for the 7 men on the field. I also don't think that the Goblins should get two trolls as that would also be broken IMO. So what we're going to do is this.
"Though halflings may only take one treeman for their BB7's roster there are no rules as to whch treeman it must be. That being the case should a halfling team happen to have 2 treeman on their standard roster they may have two attempts at the take root roll during the BB7's round. If either roll passes then that is the treeman that shows up for the match. Coaches must indicate which treeman they are rolling the take root for before it is rolled. If both tree's fail then no treeman shows up for the first half."
Thoughts?
Xtreme - Aug 31, 2004 - 12:53 PM
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Sounds good to me, though I think I would be a little harder on them and make them choose one.
Zombie - Aug 31, 2004 - 01:06 PM
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I don't like that. It helps halflings at the expense of goblins, and halflings were already better than goblins without this.
CyberHare - Aug 31, 2004 - 01:06 PM
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They do have to choose, or maybe that isn't clear. They choose who the rol for first and if that tree fails it can't show up. They can then try with their second choice.
Melifaxis - Aug 31, 2004 - 01:09 PM
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I think it's fine. No one is going to bring 'flings to the Death Bowl anyways. They would be INSANE...
Zombie - Aug 31, 2004 - 01:39 PM
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Halflings see their chance of having a treeman in the first half go from 1 in 2 to 3 in 4. Goblins get nothing. The treeman, once there, has no negative skill other than big guy. The troll still has really stupid and always hungry. I don't think that's fair at all.
However, in the final game, it's the halflings getting the short hand of the stick, as their master chef only takes away x rerolls to be distributed amoung all opposing teams, instead of taking away x rerolls to each one of them, as logic would have it. If you really want to help halflings, change that!
As for no one bringing halflings to the Deathbowl... i did last year. I brought halflings, skaven and norse. Forgot about halflings when i saw that 1 in 3 teams was either dwarf or chaos dwarf, and then rolled a die which came up norse.
KarlLagerbottom - Aug 31, 2004 - 03:50 PM
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I think the easiest way of doing it, and of course I will live with the decision either way, would be to halve the Big Guys in the way that you describe it...the one exception would be if you ordinarily can only have one...then you shouldn't be able to have one in the 7s match.
This way you are not messing with the balance of the Goblins or the Halfling teams. Beside these are the only teams that really need them in 7s anyway. CDs, Orcs, Khemri, Lizardmen would each still have access to STR4+ guys anyway...Humans and the rest really shouldn't need a Big Guy to beat Halflings.
If you take that Big Guy advantage away from the Stunty teams...
the Stunties will have no shot at winning at all. To keep it reasonable...imagine a Human team with One Thrower, One Catcher, One Blitzer and Four Linemen on the pitch against One Treemen and Six Halflings. What experienced Blood Bowl player couldn't beat that team...especially with a few skills? Now imagine the Treeman not showing up for a half?
Now imagine the same Human team minus one Lineman and supplanted by a Ogre with Block? Further imagine the Treeman not showing up then!
I believe that if no one will swallow not having a Big Guy, that the Stunties should be able to have two as usual. (Keep in mind that even then the Halflings could go a half without the Treeman support. This is something that the Goblins don't have to worry about...PLUS...their Secret Weapons Player can also make this roster.)
Insane or not...I am leaning toward the bringing Halflings to the Death Bowl. Just think of all of the takle zones that I will get to ignore on my dodges in the Final.
"...Joe Snap picks up the ball, but is surrounded on all sides by Orcs, Mummies and a Bull Centaur. With a determined look in his eye, Snap leaps over the Bull Centaur and toward the end zone. He dodges away from the BC and squeaks through the Ogre and Troll ...now he's just three squares away...Two Squares Away...The crowd goes wild...Snap will not be denied as he pushes himself toward paydirt -roll- 6!!! One Square Away...On the verge of exhaustion Snap stretches out trying to cross the goal line -roll- 1 -re-roll- 5 -TOUCHDOWN!!!!"" Ladies and gentleman we have just witnessed Dungeon Bowl history!!! Joe Snap scores the deciding touchdown in dramatic fashion and the Belly Busters are 2504 Death Bowl Champions!!! Thanks in no small part to the savory culinary smells wafting out of the pot of the Master Chef!!!
Well I can dream can't I?
Zombie - Aug 31, 2004 - 04:18 PM
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That human team you describe could easily have 1 thrower, 2 catchers, 2 blitzers and 2 linemen. Then it gets pretty ugly!
But yeah, i agree with you. Normal teams with no big guys, or stunty teams with two of them.
CyberHare - Aug 31, 2004 - 06:37 PM
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Zombie wrote:
But yeah, i agree with you. Normal teams with no big guys, or stunty teams with two of them.
Hmm well I thought of doing this but I didn't think people would go for the idea of having to sit out their BG. Mel what do you think? All BG halved rounded down of full access to BG's?
Hoshi_Komi - Aug 31, 2004 - 08:50 PM
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i'd vote for halved round down.
CyberHare - Sep 01, 2004 - 03:48 AM
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Says the man with 2 Mummies on the field
Hoshi_Komi - Sep 01, 2004 - 06:49 AM
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actually thinking of not playing khemri---depends on how my leagues four way goes.
Hoshi_Komi - Sep 01, 2004 - 06:50 AM
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also---khemri get hit pretty hard by the half rule---losing 2 mummies is pretty big (22 tr right there!!)
Melifaxis - Sep 01, 2004 - 11:59 AM
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CyberHare wrote:
Zombie wrote:
But yeah, i agree with you. Normal teams with no big guys, or stunty teams with two of them.
Hmm well I thought of doing this but I didn't think people would go for the idea of having to sit out their BG. Mel what do you think? All BG halved rounded down of full access to BG's?
I like 0 BG's but 1 for stunties. It seems more fair to the teams that dont get a BG (necro, khemri) who get hit pretty hard by the halving of positional players.
CyberHare - Sep 02, 2004 - 10:01 AM
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All right that's the way we'll do it then. I'll head over and change the official rules now.
All teams may take half of their normally allowed Big Guy's rounded down. So basically only Halflings and Goblins get one, Everyone else has to sit out their BG.
KarlLagerbottom - Sep 02, 2004 - 11:06 AM
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DAMN!!! I was just going to switch to an Orc team and was looking forward to using that Troll I just painted-up for the 7s match.
Just kidding. I guess I'm pretty much committed to the Halflings now. 
Which one will you choose?
-Rob
P.S. Seriously though...thanks for considering the change...I am looking forward to pounding some Amazon butt with my Halflings now! (I think Mel better start practising his regeration rolls too. )
Zombie - Sep 22, 2004 - 04:03 PM
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And i'll be looking forward to kicking some halfling butt! I've got a score to settle with you from the Spike!